why did Robb trust Roose bolton so much?

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I think at first the fact that Roose seems serious, cunning and ruthless lead Robb to trust him as the commander most fit for the task of ambushing Tywin. He follows the order, loses the battle but is able to retreat so it gives Robb strong indication that he is capable. Later Roose proves himself resourceful when he takes Harrenhal. Besides I don't think Robb thought Roose would have the chance to betray him. Roose was only able to do it because of the RW and Robb couldn't predict such treason.

About Jon Ned probably confides his mistrust of Roose to him when they travel together to the Dreadfort. We know Jon knows the Dreadfort so he probably went there with Ned and Robb, for some reason, didn't go.

[Gurkhal]

I think at first the fact that Roose seems serious, cunning and ruthless lead Robb to trust him as the commander most fit for the task of ambushing Tywin. He follows the order, loses the battle but is able to retreat so it gives Robb strong indication that he is capable. Later Roose proves himself resourceful when he takes Harrenhal. Besides I don't think Robb thought Roose would have the chance to betray him. Roose was only able to do it because of the RW and Robb couldn't predict such treason.

About Jon Ned probably confides his mistrust of Roose to him when they travel together to the Dreadfort. We know Jon knows the Dreadfort so he probably went there with Ned and Robb, for some reason, didn't go.

But this could also be Jon rationalizing things after the fact that lord Bolton turned on the Starks, rather than show how Eddard sensed something about Roose. It would be mightily strange for neither Catelyn or Robb to remember Eddard's misgivings about Roose when they put him in command if Eddard had shared such thoughts with them.

[Sansa_Stark]

But this could also be Jon rationalizing things after the fact that lord Bolton turned on the Starks, rather than show how Eddard sensed something about Roose. It would be mightily strange for neither Catelyn or Robb to remember Eddard's misgivings about Roose when they put him in command if Eddard had shared such thoughts with them.

Or mightily stupid.

Maybe you guys are right about the hindsight part....

[Ours if the Fury]

Roose had a clean record and had proven himself to be very useful… most of the other commanders and banner men, seemed to think he was suitable too… so why would Robb trust him?

[Sansa_Stark]

Roose had a clean record and had proven himself to be very useful… most of the other commanders and banner men, seemed to think he was suitable too… so why would Robb trust him?

Why would Robb mistrust him?

He should have at least have taken a cue from his father imo.

[Ours if the Fury]

Why would Robb mistrust him?

He should have at least have taken a cue from his father imo.

Sorry i meant shouldn't hahahaha, really sorry ill fix that!!!

[Ours if the Fury]

Roose had a clean record and had proven himself to be very useful… most of the other commanders and banner men, seemed to think he was suitable too… so why shouldn't Robb trust him?

Sorry i meant Shouldn't trust him!!

[Vikingkingq]

I think people are forgetting issues of timing and communication, given the very real difficulties involved.

Keep in mind, Robb doesn't see Roose Bolton from the time he crosses the Twins to arriving at the Twins for the Red Wedding; Robb's campaign in the West makes it very difficult to communicate by raven since you have to be at a significant castle on both ends and he's moving around a lot, and he's got the entirety of the Riverlands between him and Roose which makes couriered messages even more difficult. As a result, he doesn't hear about Duskendale until Hoster Tully's funeral.

Roose timed his actions very carefully, so that by the point that Robb was in a position to change his mind about who should have command, Roose had already done as much damage as possible: Winterfell was sacked, Jaime Lannister was allowed to leave Harrenhal, Duskendale and the Ruby Ford had cost Robb 5,000 men, and Roose and Walder were planning to have him killed shortly thereafter.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

My last reread brought me to a somewhat new conclusion (on my own part) about what went on with Robb and Roose. In actuality, while it could be thought that it seems Robb had trust in Roose, it seems to me that Robb neither gave Roose much instruction, or thought, from the moment they separated at Twins in GOT. Roose was left to be the bait and lose to Tywin at the Battle of The Greenfork (I think that's correct, I'm doing this without a book), and not much was seen or heard from Roose, in respect to Robb, from that moment on. Robb went about his merry way...........and Roose, being stuck on the otherside of the River (STILL) was stuck dawdling away from Robb's forces with nothing better to do than spend time at The Twins and pick up Fat Walda.

During my other rereads, I would usually look at when and where Roose started issuing contrary or sneaky orders, try and pair it up with what was going on with Ramsey and what Roose did or didn't know, BUT.......in actuality, the mess was made because it seems to me that Roose was left hanging in the Wind. It wasn't even Robb who ordered Roose to take Harrenhal, it was Edmure. Edmure issued orders in Robb's name to Roose, and then.....TADA, Roose did the same thing with Glover after he had Harrenhal......at Edmure's insistance. Granted, I still keep looking for WHAT and WHEN Roose knew about Ramsey, etc., BUT Roose would have been at The Twins (LOL) with Fat Walda (and still able to somewhat plan The Red Wedding, but not dispose of so many of Robb's loyal forces beforehand?) making babies if not for the fact that ROBB LEFT HIM IN THE LURCH!!!

I love Robb, but........it seems to me that yes, I guess you could call it trust, but.......Robb did just naively count on Roose's loyalty and left him in the lurch. I can't believe it took me forever to realize, that really....it was Edmure that ordered Roose to take Harrenhal. (Although, I notice things and then forget, LOL). Robb did need to issue clearer orders, and unfortunately, Roose was the ONE MAN he shouldn't have given a big chunk of the army to control, as the story shows.

Robb really left Roose lollygagging much too long.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Roose did not cross the Rubicon until he sent Glover, Tallhart & Karstark to Duskendale. Robb was advised that was Glover's initiative. Robb was advised that Theon razed Winterfell and that the Bastard took what smallfolk had survived into safe custody. Robb had no idea about Roose's aid to Jaime and the events at the Ruby Ford were defensible.

[rodrik Cassel]

I don't think it's so much that Robb trusted Roose and conferred all this autonomy on him as a result of it. I think it was that in giving long term autonomy to Roose as a consequence of a short term plan, Robb was forced to trust in him.

I think you do need to factor in hindsight because the indications are that RB was able to keep his ambitions and crueler tendencies well under the radar. All Ned says of RB in AGOT is that he urged that Barristan be executed after the Trident. In retrospect we might see that incident as confirmation that Roose was never a trustworthy person. But at the time, probably half of Robert's army or more favored the same sentiment.

My impression is that Ned probably didn't fully trust Roose, not because of any of the man's personal traits, but more because the Boltons had historically always been the Stark's rivals and that they were the northern family that was always waiting in the wings.

I just wanted to hint that with all these clues like his code of arms castel and river name might make someone lets say a little curious about that guy, it is like the SS skull logo screaming I am the bad guy.

[Gneisenau]

Trusting Roose isn't a problem if you are always stronger than him, its when you show weakness (marrying Jeyne and lossing WF) that it becomes a problem.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Trusting Roose isn't a problem if you are always stronger than him, its when you show weakness (marrying Jeyne and lossing WF) that it becomes a problem.

Theon had already seized WF but Roose didn't know about Jeyne before he sent Glover, Tallhart & Karstark to Duskendale. It was Tywin's victory and alliance coupled with Theon's betrayal that led most directly to Roose's betrayal.

[Buried Treasure]

I just wanted to hint that with all these clues like his code of arms castel and river name might make someone lets say a little curious about that guy, it is like the SS skull logo screaming I am the bad guy.

Hardly. That has been the Bolton coat of arms for thousands of years, it tells nothing about the character on any given generation of Bolton.

[The Fallen]

Hardly. That has been the Bolton coat of arms for thousands of years, it tells nothing about the character on any given generation of Bolton.

Agreed. Roose was loyal during Robert's Rebellion (and I'm assuming the Greyjoy Rebellion). And it took Tywin winning the Battle of the Blackwater to ultimately push Roose over to the dark side, I mean to betray the Starks.

[Pod The Impaler]

I don't think Robb completely trusted him, but compared to hotheads like Karstark and the Greatjon, he needed someone who was cold and deliberate, and would not engage in reckless acts or glory-seeking. Roose is practically the only northern major lord he had which fit that bill.

[Ramsay Gimp]

No reason not to trust him, but there was no reason to appoint him either ...

Roose's caution wasn't in play at the Green Fork: he just followed the Greatjon's plan. His army routed and survived because Tywin gave up the pursuit.

I disagree. Tywin remarks how "the boy was more cautious than I predicted" or something after the battle.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Agreed. Roose was loyal during Robert's Rebellion (and I'm assuming the Greyjoy Rebellion). And it took Tywin winning the Battle of the Blackwater to ultimately push Roose over to the dark side, I mean to betray the Starks.

I think that the fact that the two most treacherous families in the Kingdoms, Lannister and Frey, sat out most of Robert's Rebellion also figures heavily into the differences in Roose's behavior from that time til the time of Wot5K. Those treacherous bleeders (Lannister's and Frey's) staying out of Robert's Rebellion is what kept that war a bit more on the clean side, IMO, anyway.

[Dilecta]

Not much to add to the discussion, but thought this was apropos: A wise man once said "Nobody's a traitor ... until they are". - Titus Pullo

[Chaircat Meow]

I disagree. Tywin remarks how "the boy was more cautious than I predicted" or something after the battle.

He does. But Tywin did just explain before that the van was supposed to break, and thereby provide the bait. As we see, it didn't, and Tyrion suggests his savages ruined Tywin's plan. Tywin's 'cautious comment' implicitly disagrees, both with Tyrion and his own previous comment. Although calling a general cautious who undertook a night march to gain surprise and failed is a little strange in itself (remember Tyrion's comment about that) ... Maybe it's just ambiguous, or a mistake. Or, it represents Tywin's way of avoiding complementing Tyrion.