Jaime Bi-sexual?

[Talking Hodor]

Maybe there wouldn't be such an overwhelming need for people to slash ship characters if the media offered better diversity in the first place.

Not to mention, people who see Jon Snow, for instance, as gay are not all "crazy yaoi teenage girls". Some (like me) are men well past their teenage years who just want to more positive representation (and not throwaway characters, "rumored" gays, pedophiles etc) in one of their favorite series.

Why couldn't Snow be gay? or bi? Yes he had sex with Ygritte but he is 16, a 16 y/o gay/bi boy having sex with a girl is far from unheard of. The way he thinks of Satin ("lithe", "pretty like a girl", "soft hands") is very homoerotic at the very least.

Either way, whether he is or not is besides the point, let underrepresented people have their fantasies, it's not harming anyone but those with a misplaced sense of hetero pride.

Jon describing Satin as lady like is a far cry from being attracted to him. I'm guessing anybody seeing Satin would describe him that way. Jon's got far too much on his plate as LC and is still obviously attracted to females (Ygritte, Val, Mel) to bother experimenting.

[Talking Hodor]

This is the closest thing to bisexuality Jaime said that I could find... lol

To be clear, I do think that was an actual threat and not dirty talk... :)

It also shows that he doesn't have a very high opinion of Loras pushing Renly's shit in. This confirms his heterosexuality to me.

[Akal Colzet]

This would definitely be a good subject for a re-read... He certainly seems to have a very good empathetic understanding how both women and men work emotionally (I'm thinking of his dealings with Loras and Lancel), and that, I would argue, is rare in a strictly hetero guy...

But then Jaime is not your usual hetero guy... All his life he's been sexually faithful to one woman and one woman alone... He's got an enormous amount of sexual/emotional tension to blow off and you can see this in his last chapters.

I don't find it strange or rare that he would understand Loras and Lancel, they are younger versions of him. Any man would understand a younger man in the same profession who also shows similar character traits, has nothing with sexual orientation to do.

[Hypnomagica]

Yeah, because gay guys are always so empathetic. Isn't this basically the same sort of prejudiced argument as "white men can't jump" or "black people are all dumb" or "women are not good at math"? :huh:

I was not aware that black people being dumb was a common stereotype.

[Hypnomagica]

What always saddens me about topics like this is that

1. People will go out of their way to mock theories about gay or bi characters, as if it's ridiculous for people to want more sexual diversity

2. People will ask for "proof" of characters bi- or homosexuality, yet never ask for "proof" of heterosexuality, because hetero is the "default" reading.

Well, yeah because most people tend towards heterosexuality, especially in Westeros.

[Hangover of the Morning]

FYI, though I wasn't even alive back then, from what I understand the first popular "slash" ship was Kirk/Spock from Star Trek, which was on in the 1960s.

Anyway, I think a difference between "shipping", which is often MEANT to be subversive, and people actually claiming that a certain character is gay or bisexual as a canon fact. The OP for this topic was referring to people claiming that "Jaime is bi" as if it was a canon fact the way, say, Oberyn being bi is. (Which we don't actually "see" the way we'll undoubtedly do in the show but I think it's very strongly implied.) When people make such statements, they're going to be challenged.

Also, as I've stated before, many people who "ship" same-sex couples are obviously NOT doing so out of a commitment to sexual diversity, but simply because they find the idea "hot". Not always; the Mulder/Skinner ship I think was definitely meant to subvert the rather cliche "sexy main male lead and sexy main female lead eventually hook up" trope I think everyone saw that show going towards, as Skinner was a middle-aged, balding guy with glasses, not the kind of man who usually bring female hearts fluttering.

However, it does seem that much slash shipping in the last decade or so, especially among younger fans, really isn't based in such noble sentiments to support more sexual diversity. Most slash shippers are not actually gay or bi themselves, but are young hetereosexual women. So it's not about "underrepresented fans having fantasies". I think it's more an outgrowth of the tendency to assume any significant relationship MUST have a sexual component to it, as well as it becoming more acceptable for women to be just as shallow about sex as men stereotypically are, and therefore, shipping same-sex couples mostly because the idea of two hot men having sex turns some women on, much as the idea of two hot women having sex turns some men on.

Now, there also is a tendency for some slash shippers to throw ad hominem accusations that anyone who doesn't support the ship is homophobic. This happened a lot in HP fandom, I used to be quite active in that fandom, and I never supported the romantic interpretation of Remus/Sirius, and I got accused of being a closed-minded homophobe many times myself. However, that really seemed to be more about attacking people than any commitment to sexual diversity.

I also don't find the slash shippers who throw hate at female characters to be that enlightened. I don't know which is considered less PC these days, homophobia or internalized misogyny, but that kind of attitude just casts doubt on claims that the supporters of a slash ship are doing so out of a commitment to diversity.

I remember this happened in HP fandom when Tonks turned into a love interest for Remus; the white-hot anger towards her from Remus/Sirius shippers was incredible, many such shippers dismissing her as a "beard", or even stating as fact that she must be using magical powers to change her appearance (which she did have in canon) to impersonate Sirius in bed, and that was the only reason Remus accepted her. (Now, there was some evidence in the text that Tonks likely cared for Remus much more than he did for her, but he still married her and had a baby, and I personally think the relationship was meant to be for real.)

Thanks a lot for your interpretation. Very interesting read and you are right that slash shipping is nothing new, just more available nowadays with tumblr etc.

I am all for more sexual diversity in fiction but I agree with you that inventing facts and blaming everyone who doesn’t agree to be homophobic is just not helping the cause.

Never heard about Remus/Sirius ship and LOL and the Tonk’s shape-shifting into a big black dog so Remus can get it up.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Evidence for Jon?

Wishful thinking is all that it is. Same for Jaime.

[Gneisenau]

I find it disturbing that a male can't describe the physical beauty of another male without being labelled as a homosexual.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I watch Glee. There is a LOT of representation for LGTB: two gay guys, one lesbian, one bisexual girl and a trangender girl. All in the same glee club, I'm not even counting other characters... So "looking for more representation" is not a valid reason. And, I even remember that there was an initiative to have more gay characters and with a better representation. I guess two gay guys, one lesbian, one bisexual girl and a transgender girl was not enough.

[Cubarey]

"2. People will ask for "proof" of characters bi- or homosexuality, yet never ask for "proof" of heterosexuality, because hetero is the "default" reading.

Present research shows that about 10% of population is not strictly hetresexual. So about 90% are hetro, it only follows that the default reading is that characters are hetro unless evidence to the contrary is offered.

Sorry, but a 16 year old young man thinking that a dashing King's Guard (dressed in white and gold) is impressive but that a 30 something year old woman with three children one almost as old as himself, is less so does not reflect homosexual tendencies. Neither does describing a male character as ladylike or delicate, in less PC times the author may have simply noted that the character was "effiminate". As that word carries with it a certain amount of unPC baggage the author instead described the qualitites that would have led person's of an earlier generation to name the character effeminate. Noting those qualities in no way reflects on the watchers sexual preference.

Could GRRM have written either or both Jon and Jamie as bisexual or gay, certainly, and it would not have effected central core of the characters, but arguing that he did on the meager evidence that posters use is less then credible. It's one thing to argue about Obyron or JonCon being gay or bi, there is at least an argument to be made for each, although it's not clear cut and is left up to the reader to draw his own conclusions. Jon and Jamie on the other hand is mostly wishful thinking on the part of some.

[digiFemme]

What always saddens me about topics like this is that

1. People will go out of their way to mock theories about gay or bi characters, as if it's ridiculous for people to want more sexual diversity

I think wanting to see sexual diversity is a bit different from interpreting something that's already there and (in some cases) established. If a person wanted to see a gay relationship in a book or a movie, that's ok...or if this person just paired guys up for fun in fiction and art, then there's nothing wrong with this also. But if said person talked about the show or the book with another and insisted that the m/m or f/f pairing was actually there when there is little to support it, I think that's where the problem comes in especially when you're talking about forum discussions, etc. I say this because I've actually had a long argument with a fan girl like that before; she was into an 'enemy' pairing and was insisting said couple was canon, coined terms like extrapolation from the text etc...

I'm not sure how to address the like- if the theory is silly but the person proposing it is serious and not to mention very stubborn about it, there's a very large chance I'm going to get a negative view of said fan.

2. People will ask for "proof" of characters bi- or homosexuality, yet never ask for "proof" of heterosexuality, because hetero is the "default" reading.

For me, it's fair to assume that these fictional characters are asexual until proven straight/bi/gay. The only problem I have is that (again) I've seen some of these fans argue that even if the guy was paired with a girl and they were obviously into each other, he could still be gay.