KingOfTheRock Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah but i don't know how he would write it like that, because what would be going on with the others? would they just hangout north of the wall and make no more attacks while winter rages on for a few years, then decide to move south. They already were moving on the Wall before Winter even started Could be told through flashbacks or something. Dunno :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking Alesander I Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Just read the 'Mercy' chapter. Weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zman1863 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 She's completely detached in the Mercy cpihapter. Sex and sexual situations are something she is completely indifferent to and sees only as means to Sansa, on the other hand, has already had plenty of thoughts that concern her own developing sexuality and sexual desires. Why are people in this thread, when they talk about sexual aspects, talking just about girls being raped or using sexuality to get something, and not about girls having their own desires and acting on them? edited for spoiler tags Yes, she is still detached in how she manipulates Raff. But there was definitely something sexual in how her thoughts manifest her desire to make the kill. To me, Arya's "I want him" evoked Jaime's description of Cersei at Castle Darry as crying out "I want.." during sex and Jaime thinking that it wasn't him she wanted, but Arya, caught and punished. Like Cersei, Arya appears to have begun experiencing sexual desires that are conflated with violence. You are correct that Sansa's chapters already manifest her own desires and her development. My point is that "Mercy" seemed to have done something similar with Arya and the indications are that we are going to see it continue and continue to become more explicit in both characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yes, she is still detached in how she manipulates Raff. But there was definitely something sexual in how her thoughts manifest her desire to make the kill. To me, Arya's "I want him" evoked Jaime's description of Cersei at Castle Darry as crying out "I want.." during sex and Jaime thinking that it wasn't him she wanted, but Arya, caught and punished. Like Cersei, Arya appears to have begun experiencing sexual desires that are conflated with violence. You are correct that Sansa's chapters already manifest her own desires and her development. My point is that "Mercy" seemed to have done something similar with Arya and the indications are that we are going to see it continue and continue to become more explicit in both characters. Huh. I didn't get the impression of any sexual desire from Arya. Where are you getting the idea that she got off sexually on killing? Her thoughts on his kiss and her groping are completely clinical and detached. She describes his kiss as feeling an eel inside her mouth (that's as far as appealing and erotic as you can get - sounds just like being kissed by someone you don't find attractive at all), and she reacts by "licking his tongue" rather than "kissing him back". All the "sexual aspects" of the situation are an act she is putting on to lure him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zman1863 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Huh. I didn't get the impression of any sexual desire from Arya. Where are you getting the idea that she got off sexually on killing? Her thoughts on his kiss and her groping are completely clinical and detached. She describes his kiss as feeling an eel inside her mouth (that's as far as appealing and erotic as you can get - sounds just like being kissed by someone you don't find attractive at all), and she reacts by "licking his tongue" rather than "kissing him back". All the "sexual aspects" of the situation are an act she is putting on to lure him. I wouldn't go so far as to claim she got off by killing Raff. I'm saying her desire to kill him in her thoughts contained language that had a sexual dynamic. "It would be best if I could take him back to my place, have him all to myself. But would he come?" "Give it up or go ahead. She could not give it up. She wanted him so bad." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I wouldn't go so far as to claim she got off by killing Raff. I'm saying her desire to kill him in her thoughts contained language that had a sexual dynamic. "It would be best if I could take him back to my place, have him all to myself. But would he come?" "Give it up or go ahead. She could not give it up. She wanted him so bad." That was just GRRM trolling the readers, trying to make us wonder if Arya's identity has been consumed by a new persona, if she is or isn't Arya Stark now. Mercy is supposed to be the type of girl who's flirtatious and boy-crazy and who would crush on a good-looking older guy and want to have sex. I was sure from the start what she was really doing. She's playing the role of Mercy who would want a guy like Raff that way, while she's really Arya, who "wants" him in another way. The ambiguous wording that makes you think it's about sex, when it's really about killing, reminds me of the show dialogue in episode 1.3 "Lord Snow" between Robert, Barristan and Jaime about "do you remember your first". I wonder how many people realized what Robert meant by the question before they heard Ser Barristan's full answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zman1863 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 That was just GRRM trolling the readers, trying to make us wonder if Arya's identity has been consumed by a new persona, if she is or isn't Arya Stark now. Mercy is supposed to be the type of girl who's flirtatious and boy-crazy and who would crush on a good-looking older guy and want to have sex. I was sure from the start what she was really doing. She's playing the role of Mercy who would want a guy like Raff that way, while she's really Arya, who "wants" him in another way. The ambiguous wording that makes you think it's about sex, when it's really about killing, reminds me of the show dialogue in episode 1.3 "Lord Snow" between Robert, Barristan and Jaime about "do you remember your first". I wonder how many people realized what Robert meant by the question before they heard Ser Barristan's full answer. Yes, I think Mercy's face does play a part in coloring the tone of the chapter. But I think the parts I cited are arguably instances where the authentic Arya is divisible from the mask. You might disagree and you might be right, but I don't think we'll have the answer until we get chapters where Arya's got her own face back. Naturally, the wording has a clever double meaning. She doesn't want Raff "all to herself" so she can have sex with him; she does because she wants to kill him. But the presence of language that has that double meaning makes it logical that the reader can infer that Arya may be manifesting feelings of desire or lust when it comes to her revenge killings. Mercy may be artificially creating this effect. But it could also be that, like in Sansa's chapters, we are getting subtle hints of Arya's development. I think this is supported by the fact that other characters in the series also have shown signs of conflating sexual feelings with a fondness for violence. There is definitely Cersei in this and the Hound comes to mind as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainTheo Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Of course Sansa will have sex before the series ends. What's the big deal about it? That sounds like quite a major assumption, especially keeping to the current timeline when at the end of the series she is likely to be only around 15 years of age. Her mother Catelyn did not until she married Eddard, and from memory she was 19 then. I'm not saying that Sansa won't or shouldn't, but to assume that she will... I mean, Dany was almost 14 and married against her will. GRRM doesn't have to go down the same path with Sansa especially as so far he seems to be protecting Sansa's maidenhood. I'm hoping he doesn't, although I'm not especially confident that he won't. EDIT: GRRM certainly doesn't rush this so much with the male characters; Robb/Jon are 15 or 16 when they do, and in the case of Jon it is essentially against his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 The big deal isn't that it happens, but with whom. For example I have no problem with her having sex with Sandor, but Littlefinger... :ack: :stillsick: If you have not noticed, Martin likes to push his reader's buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I find it fairly creepy that some people are okay with her having sex with Sandor....I'm fairly sure Sandor and Littlefinger are both old enough to be her father. EDIT: Although Sandor is one of my favorite characters, having sex with a man who says "Killing is the sweetest thing in the world" just doesn't seem right for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If you have not noticed, Martin likes to push his reader's buttons. If you don't know Martin said that he wouldn't write rape pov chapters any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If you don't know Martin said that he wouldn't write rape pov chapters any time soon. Which I'm fairly sure any non-pedo individual should be happy about, especially for our younger POV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 That sounds like quite a major assumption, especially keeping to the current timeline when at the end of the series she is likely to be only around 15 years of age. Her mother Catelyn did not until she married Eddard, and from memory she was 19 then. I'm not saying that Sansa won't or shouldn't, but to assume that she will... I mean, Dany was almost 14 and married against her will. GRRM doesn't have to go down the same path with Sansa especially as so far he seems to be protecting Sansa's maidenhood. I'm hoping he doesn't, although I'm not especially confident that he won't. EDIT: GRRM certainly doesn't rush this so much with the male characters; Robb/Jon are 15 or 16 when they do, and in the case of Jon it is essentially against his will. That makes it better? I'm quite puzzled how a teenager being coerced to have sex is somehow more acceptable and appropriate than a teenager choosing to have sex because they want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Which I'm fairly sure any non-pedo individual should be happy about, especially for our younger POV's. You have no idea how relieved I was when I heard that. btw about your last comment. Most of the San'San fans I know don't want a relationship between them until Sansa is emotionally and mentally mature and has reached that a proper age to make the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 You have no idea how relieved I was when I heard that. btw about your last comment. Most of the San'San fans I know don't want any romance/sex between them until Sansa is emotionally and mentally mature and old enough to make the decision. Oh, alright. Im fine with that as long as its Sansa's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 That sounds like quite a major assumption, especially keeping to the current timeline when at the end of the series she is likely to be only around 15 years of age. Her mother Catelyn did not until she married Eddard, and from memory she was 19 then. I'm not saying that Sansa won't or shouldn't, but to assume that she will... I mean, Dany was almost 14 and married against her will. GRRM doesn't have to go down the same path with Sansa especially as so far he seems to be protecting Sansa's maidenhood. I'm hoping he doesn't, although I'm not especially confident that he won't. EDIT: GRRM certainly doesn't rush this so much with the male characters; Robb/Jon are 15 or 16 when they do, and in the case of Jon it is essentially against his will. Arianne was, IIRC, 14 when she first had sex. And it is a matter of rushing: Sansa should be considering a marriage for convenience. Besides, she's opposed to the idea of marriage, she's not opposed to the idea of sex If you don't know Martin said that he wouldn't write rape pov chapters any time soon. So? The OP isn't about Sansa getting raped, is about Sansa getting laid. Why are some people always jumping to rape the moment a thread considers the possibility of Sansa Stark having sex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Arianne was, IIRC, 14 when she first had sex. And it is a matter of rushing: Sansa should be considering a marriage for convenience. Besides, she's opposed to the idea of marriage, she's not opposed to the idea of sex So? The OP isn't about Sansa getting raped, is about Sansa getting laid. Why are some people always jumping to rape the moment a thread considers the possibility of Sansa Stark having sex? Well topic was in the beginning about what Littlefinger might do to Sansa hence why I brought that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 So? The OP isn't about Sansa getting raped, is about Sansa getting laid. Why are some people always jumping to rape the moment a thread considers the possibility of Sansa Stark having sex? Because she's what? 13? People jump to rape because they believe at that age it'll probably be rape. Theres maybe like 10% for actual sex. Arianne was, IIRC, 14 when she first had sex. The Dornish are considered to have different culture regarding sex. Not a very good comparison to people from the other parts of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think Sansa is going to bang someone of her choosing (I think it will be Sandor). She's going on 14 now, I think she may be 15. Only 3 years have passed in 5 books, and I doubt he's going to speed up time. Sansa has dreamed of romance all her life, it would be nice to see her find a little happiness before the story is over. Ages, lots of teens under 16 having sex and marrying, and age gaps, too. It's just the way he wrote the story. They have dragons, so they can have sex, too, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Arianne was, IIRC, 14 when she first had sex. And it is a matter of rushing: Sansa should be considering a marriage for convenience. Besides, she's opposed to the idea of marriage, she's not opposed to the idea of sex So? The OP isn't about Sansa getting raped, is about Sansa getting laid. Why are some people always jumping to rape the moment a thread considers the possibility of Sansa Stark having sex? Literally, thank you so much. When I made this post I was talking about sex not rape. A young girl can want sex it's not abnormal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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