Please Don't Come into my Castle: The Fortresses of the Seven Kingdom

[Olligarchy]

Or my ridiculous attempt at replicating E-Ros' epic thread name.

For a while now I've been studying the general map of Westeros and attempting to use my studies of medieval history to determine where it would make sense to place the greatest fortresses. Quite sadly, many of the locations described by GRRM make absolutely no sense. The mightiest fortresses such as Winterfell, The Eyrie and Storm's End sit in the middle of nowhere without any strategic reasoning behind them. This fights against every instinct a feudal ruler would have over placing mighty forts at critical junctures to defend large cities, riverfords and such.

It is not all bad however. Castles such as the Rock, Riverrun and Highgarden are placed quite smartly and actually reflect real historical/strategic thinking in their placements, but I find it strange why only a few of these said fortresses are placed in such a manner. Why is the Rock placed over the largest gold mine on the continent and standing watch over a large city, whilst Winterfell sits for all intents and purposes in the middle of Siberia? Why is Riverrun guarding a river juncture whilst the Eyrie is a tiny castle atop high mountains, where whomever attacks the Vale can quite comfortably leave the tiny garrison of max 500? Why is Highgarden guarding the Mander and stopping anyone from passing deeper into the Reach, when Storm's End stands guard on a barren and useless piece of coast?

This may indeed have just been a writers lack of knowledge on the topic, but I'd like to think that a writer like GRRM has a better reason than "rule of cool" for placing the fortresses as they are. Westeros is a truly ancient land of over 8,000 years of history, and some of these fortresses (Winterfell and Storm's End spring to mind) may have existed for entirity of that recorded history.

But why place these forts where they are? Storm's End is said to have been basically a giant "F-U" to the Gods, but Winterfell? I know not. Perhaps some of you reading this have a good idea on that.

As of now however, I would like to begin a debate over which of the castles in Westeros are actually placed "well". Below I will attach a list of castles that have been placed and constructed sensibly to hold a real purpose, beyond being big and intimidating.

• Casterly Rock: The ancient seat of the Lannisters has been clearly placed where it is to guard the largest gold mine on the continent and to protect the city of Lannisport.
  
• Highgarden: Guards the entrance from northern/southern Reach to the opposite direction, as well as stands guard over the Mander.
  
• Riverrun: Perhaps my favourite. The castle guards not one, but two junctures of the same river, and neatly stops any invasion from the Golden Tooth deeper into the Riverlands.
  
• The Twins: The Freys' may have a reputation as tollkeepers, but they clearly were smart enough to place their castle at a critical location where it can guard entrance deeper into the Riverlands from the North, or act as a staging point for another invasion.
  

What are your thoughts on the fortresses of the Seven Kingdoms?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The Eyrie always seemed odd to me, but I suppose Winterfell sits on the Kingsroad in the heart of the North. Capturing it is not only symbolic, but it gives you a place in the middle of the North to strike out from and protect the other castles. Moat Cailin guards the Neck, so it's not as if they've built a castle in the wrong place. It seems to me that Bran the Builder just wanted a fortified home for his family in the middle of his lands.

[TallTyrion]

I disagree of your assessment of the Eyrie, although saying the bloody gate would be more appropriate since that's the actual defence. Isn't it guarding the entrance to the valley where the regions agriculture is located?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I disagree of your assessment of the Eyrie, although saying the bloody gate would be more appropriate since that's the actual defence. Isn't it guarding the entrance to the valley where the regions agriculture is located?

The Bloody Gate is in an excellent strategic position. The Eyrie is not.

[bogdevil]

depending on the different theories, WF was built on the spot that the last battle for the dawn happened. It possibly also predates the Wall. It is built over hot springs, a significant boon to castle located in the far north and is pretty much centrally located in the north in general. Looking at the map of Westeros, I am not really sure there is a strategic place to build a castle in the North, except maybe White Harbor. However, much of WF's defenses is the fact that an invading army would have to cross over leagues of hostile land instead of a waterborn invasion.

[Lord Reaver]

The Eyrie and Winterfell seem to be built more due to the quirks of the location than any overall strategic sense.

Winterfell does function as the only real link between the east and west of the North, as there are few other keeps in the middle there. So as such it has some strategic worth. It is most likely though that the actual location has to do with the hot springs. In the North, the cold is as great a foe as anything that could be besieging your castle, after all.

ETA: Dang Ninjas!

[TallTyrion]

The Bloody Gate is in an excellent strategic position. The Eyrie is not.

I would view them as essentially part of the same compound. Although it seems that the eyrie is mostly for show or an absolute last resort to retreat too.

[Olligarchy]

The Eyrie always seemed odd to me, but I suppose Winterfell sits on the Kingsroad in the heart of the North. Capturing it is not only symbolic, but it gives you a place in the middle of the North to strike out from and protect the other castles. Moat Cailin guards the Neck, so it's not as if they've built a castle in the wrong place. It seems to me that Bran the Builder just wanted a fortified home for his family in the middle of his lands.

Winterfell according to most of the maps I've seen is in the middle of nowhere and guards nothing really... since the Kingsroad was created only scant few centuries ago.

Moat Cailin is a good one actually. Forgot about that. Though obviously smarter men would've kept it in better repair.

I disagree of your assessment of the Eyrie, although saying the bloody gate would be more appropriate since that's the actual defence. Isn't it guarding the entrance to the valley where the regions agriculture is located?

The Eyrie is said to have been placed there to safeguard the entrance into the Giant's Lance and act as a thorn in the back of any invading army that could get through the Bloody Gate. However the fact that the castle can only hold max 500 men makes it quite... useless for said duty. Especially as the defenders have to climb down the same path as attackers have to take.

Bloody Gate is in a smart place, Eyrie is not.

[Waters Gate]

The Eyrie is said to have been placed there to safeguard the entrance into the Giant's Lance and act as a thorn in the back of any invading army that could get through the Bloody Gate. However the fact that the castle can only hold max 500 men makes it quite... useless for said duty. Especially as the defenders have to climb down the same path as attackers have to take.

That depends. If the Eyrie can overlook much of the paths/valleys armies have to move trough to be mobile in the Vale the you have 500 men up there who can sit safely there for years and pelt armies and reinforcements with arrows.

[Lord Reaver]

Winterfell according to most of the maps I've seen is in the middle of nowhere and guards nothing really... since the Kingsroad was created only scant few centuries ago.

It ties the two sides of the immense North together. Marching an army straight across without a safe resupply would be hell (as we see from Stannis' march).

It's not the best of strategic reasons, but it's better than nothing, I recon.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I would view them as essentially part of the same compound. Although it seems that the eyrie is mostly for show or an absolute last resort to retreat too.

You may be confusing the Bloody Gate with the Gates of the Moon. The Bloody Gate guards the entrance to the Vale, the Gates of the Moon sits at the bottom of the Giant's Lance, guarding the pathway up to the Eyrie.

That depends. If the Eyrie can overlook much of the paths/valleys armies have to move trough to be mobile in the Vale the you have 500 men up there who can sit safely there for years and pelt armies and reinforcements with arrows.

Your chances of accurately shooting arrows from the Eyrie are effectively nil.

[TallTyrion]

The Eyrie and Winterfell seem to be built more due to the quirks of the location than any overall strategic sense.

Winterfell does function as the only real link between the east and west of the North, as there are few other keeps in the middle there. So as such it has some strategic worth. It is most likely though that the actual location has to do with the hot springs. In the North, the cold is as great a foe as anything that could be besieging your castle, after all.

ETA: Dang Ninjas!

The hot springs is definitely a big part of it. We also don't know what the towns were like 8000 years ago when they built it. Could have been a major population centre based around the White Knife and logging in the Wolfswood at the time of Winterfell's construction.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Logic would place Winterfell at White Harbour: it's the largest city north of the Neck, the largest port, and a hub of trade. It is just across the Narrow Sea from the Free Cities, and guards the White Knife river, which flows into the heart of Northern territory.

It'd also be comparatively mild, climate-wise, being both southerly and maritime.

[Consigliere]

The app mentions that The Eyrie was originally raised as a summer pleasure palace for the kings of mountain and Vale. This could explain why, like Summerhall, it isn't strategically located since both castles were originally built to be a summer retreat.

[TallTyrion]

You may be confusing the Bloody Gate with the Gates of the Moon. The Bloody Gate guards the entrance to the Vale, the Gates of the Moon sits at the bottom of the Giant's Lance, guarding the pathway up to the Eyrie.

Your chances of accurately shooting arrows from the Eyrie are effectively nil.

Yep you're right the map I was using makes the bloody gate seem a lot closer.

[E-Ro]

Awesome thread! I don't have much to add right now,(phone posting sucks) but I'll be back later with some insights.

[Waters Gate]

The Eyrie is unassaultable. before the advent of dragons, it was the only place you couldn't overpower with an assault., well safe for moat caillin but that one can be bypassed.

One might have been able to siege it. How long The Eyrie can hold out is not known but it needs relativly few defenders so thats far less mouths to feed.

All other castle's in Westeros could far more easily overpowered by assault, other fortresses actually offering hughe force multiplyers are Moat caillin from the south side and some other bottlenecks like indeed the gate of the moon and the Bloody gate in the vale. So the vale has a lot of fortresses offering hughe force multiplyers.

The point of that is whoever king holds the Eyrie is the least likely to ever loose his head by a sudden assault of a large army upon his lands. And likely he can hold out very long in a siege aswell, but not as long potentially though as someone holding a fortress at the sea and can maintain naval supply to it. But practicly all other castle's can be overpowerred by superior amounts of men, whereas with the Eyrie even throwing a million men against it might not do it.

It's deffinatly also a good place i think to protect youre treasure's. Youre not going to rob this place easily, internal security is much easier than with other castle's. other places need thousands of men to defend, you have more of a chance of internal threats. likely the lords of the Eyrie know their castle's soldiers by name and face, and its not going to be easy for a spy or assassin to sneak into this castle.

I don't get why people dis so much on the Eyrie. i love it as a concept of a castle or defensive spot. Sure it can be sieged, but the siegers likely are going to grow a lot older with it too and the point of castle's is that they can hold out very long untill help relieve's them usually.

No castle in Westeros seems unsiegable or untakkable given enough resources and men, all castle's can be sieged with a total blockade if need by by land and sea. All the other castles need to support that much more men though, so much more mouths to feed and also men to pay or garrison to leave behind.

But man before you get trough all those force multiplyers like the bloody gate or the gate of the moon, either that wil already cost youy a year with eaither sieging, moving around, or cost you countless of men in assaults.

Meanwhiel the lords of the vale can retreat their armies if need be, if they cannot hold these gates. they can hide to strike later, while the enemy tries to siege the Eyrie. I guess it's not that as Lord paramount of the Eyrie you have to be up there at that point. The usefull thign to me seems that you can keep youre personal belongings and family quite safe for a very long time there withought to much worry as you take youre army somewhere else for example. Surely the fact that the Eyrie is so rediculously impossible to assault gives it certain advantages in terms of safety and maintainance.

[The Marquis de Leech]

As for The Eyrie, I've always thought it was modelled off Mad King Ludwig's creation:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00653/news-graphics-2007-_653243a.jpg

Which was build with coolness in mind, not practicality.

[Lord Thornhart]

Really great research.

I don't get what's so special about Winterfell. We are constantly told it isn't big, it isn't strong, it isn't rich, etc. and it's also in the middle of nowhere.

[TallTyrion]

Logic would place Winterfell at White Harbour: it's the largest city north of the Neck, the largest port, and a hub of trade. It is just across the Narrow Sea from the Free Cities, and guards the White Knife river, which flows into the heart of Northern territory.

It'd also be comparatively mild, climate-wise, being both southerly and maritime.

Maybe they wanted their main stronghold closer to the wall. I believe Last Hearth and Karhold are the only major castles north of Winterfell and they wouldn't have been established yet. Protecting the region from what lies in the deep north would have been a big concern for Bran the Builder and White harbour may have been to far away in case you needed to call your banners and march on the wall.