Heresy 117

[Black Crow]

I get the faerie changeling idea, but what I don't get is why the Singers want to make the White Walkers in the first place? Are they simply shepherds of the dead, bringing the wights to squirrel away for food? The idea I'm hung up on is taking the child to make the White Walker and then leaving the obsidian to kill the White Walker.

No, as I said above, they're soldiers,like the Bloody Mummers but more terrifying, used to intimidate and drive out those humans who don't take the hint and leave of their own accord.

In the Long Night they scoured out the survivors of the Winter; now they are scouring out Mance's people.

And now to bed. See you all tomorrow.

[Jojen]

A baby White Walker would be a White Crawler?

And they're carried around in Baby Neverbjorns.

[Jojen]

Has anyone seen the movie "Jack Frost" with Michael Keaton? The basic story is described as a man breaks his promises and dies, but comes back as a WW--er, snowman, so that he can make amends with his son.

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong and it's simply a matter of epic daddy issues. That's actually not all that heretical....

[TheButcherCrow]

I'm suggesting that the Singers [referring to them as Children in this context is confusing] were responsible for the Long Night.

During that Long Night, like other Faerie folk, they stole or otherwise obtained human children, "changing" them into soldiers - the white walkers - to spread terror and drive out those First Men who stubbornly refused to flee.

The Thirteen Brave Companions [the last hero plus the 12 who didn't make it] set out to find the Singers and cry pax

Peace was agreed or restored and dragonglass exchanged for children until the Nights King was overthown

Now deep in the forest something is stirring and the Old Powers on wakening once again have a requirement for changeling children - a new generation of white walkers given up by Craster.

And that's about it in a nutshell - saving the obvious involvement of the Starks back in the day.

Our theories are so close but so different!! I agree the singers caused the Long Night, although it is equally possible the LN simply occurred due to a natural imbalance caused by the rise of humans but I'm willing to blame the singers for the sake of argument. Anyway, I don't see this story really having a "big bad", Show-Jorah spoke true when he said "there's good & evil on either side in every war ever fought". That said, I do think Craster's Boys & their Army of the Damned ARE a significant threat to Westeros and the rest of the world. So I see the singers as desperately trying to maintain a balance, not because they are some sort of mystic guardians tasked with such but because they have decided to. Singer society is based on the principle of balance. In the long ages when they had Westeros to themselves they interpreted "natural balance" into everything they saw. They rationalised that their numbers were few but their years long as being the will of the gods to maintain balance and then along comes humanity. The singers must have been waiting for nature to correct itself, convinced that the gods would put a wolf among the deer but when none appeared they decided to take matters into their own hands. They worked magic and learned to sing the song of ice. This is where we diverge completely, I do not think the singers intentionally created the WW. I think they unleashed the cold that raises the dead and with the use of a greenseer were able to control the zombie horde. But magic is a sword without a hilt and they were not able to anticipate what would happen if the cold took a living host.

[Phillip Frye]

How are you defining depth here?Does it mean a narrative which doesn't involve Bran warging his dead father?Causing weirwoods to uproot and walk round smiting their foes?Antlered men giving babies to the Singers for food?

ETA-Which other elements are you referring to and for what reason?

I think that Martin should write up Addicted to Whomping Weirwood's theories as an non-canonical novel. It would probably be funnier than anything written by Terry Pratchett.

[Eira Seren]

No, as I said above, they're soldiers,like the Bloody Mummers but more terrifying, used to intimidate and drive out those humans who don't take the hint and leave of their own accord.

In the Long Night they scoured out the survivors of the Winter; now they are scouring out Mance's people.

And now to bed. See you all tomorrow

This may seem like a dumb question, but. Why do you think the Starks may have made a deal with them early on?

[Black Crow]

This may seem like a dumb question, but. Why do you think the Starks may have made a deal with them early on?

There seems to be an implication in the text that the Starks and Winterfell go back a very long way and have some connection with Winter, and that if Bran the Builder and the last hero are not one and the same they are at least closely related, ie; the last of the 13 heroes was a Stark. We also have the Nights King of course, identified by Old Nan as a Stark.

Hence the suggestion that when the last hero found the Singers and asked for help, it came at a price, binding the Starks to the old powers.

I'm also minded to wonder, given that the bed-time story session drew a clear distinction between Bran the Builder and the last hero, about the parallels between the two Brans. There is a theory, I know, that they might both turn out to be one and the same, but I think that they are separate. Instead I wonder whether the first Bran like the present one did go into the service of the Old Gods, perhaps for a year and a day, not as a white walker because he was too old to be a changeling, but to learn and to be the link between the realms.

[Eira Seren]

There seems to be an implication in the text that the Starks and Winterfell go back a very long way and have some connection with Winter, and that if Bran the Builder and the last hero are not one and the same they are at least closely related, ie; the last of the 13 heroes was a Stark. We also have the Nights King of course, identified by Old Nan as a Stark.

Hence the suggestion that when the last hero found the Singers and asked for help, it came at a price, binding the Starks to the old powers.

I'm also minded to wonder, given that the bed-time story session drew a clear distinction between Bran the Builder and the last hero, about the parallels between the two Brans. There is a theory, I know, that they might both turn out to be one and the same, but I think that they are separate. Instead I wonder whether the first Bran like the present one did go into the service of the Old Gods, perhaps for a year and a day, not as a white walker because he was too old to be a changeling, but to learn and to be the link between the realms.

Thanks, that's a pretty juicy theory!

[Eira Seren]

Has anyone seen the movie "Jack Frost" with Michael Keaton? The basic story is described as a man breaks his promises and dies, but comes back as a WW--er, snowman, so that he can make amends with his son.

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong and it's simply a matter of epic daddy issues. That's actually not all that heretical....

Also, I think several threads back, shortly around Heresy 100 there was discussion of the Great Other as a female entity. So maybe epic mommy issues. . .

[addicted to snow]

Not if the children are being given up - not abandoned. That's where the exchange comes in. The Faeries get the human servants they want and Men get a means of defence against those servants.

That really does not seem logical… not at all...

[addicted to snow]

Nah, its all about the red herrings you're so fond of. What I'm suggesting is that its not the obvious white walkers who are the big threat but the cuddly tree-huggers.

I believe that it is GRRM who is fond of using red herrings (he even went so far as to name one of his characters Craster)… Personally, I am indifferent to red herrings.

[addicted to snow]

I'm going to be surprised if the Starks didn't make a pact with the Devil way back...

I can agree with this statement… Ned certainly seemed to think that he & other Starks of Winterfell are bound for a 'frozen hell' after death…

[Melifeather]

There seems to be an implication in the text that the Starks and Winterfell go back a very long way and have some connection with Winter, and that if Bran the Builder and the last hero are not one and the same they are at least closely related, ie; the last of the 13 heroes was a Stark. We also have the Nights King of course, identified by Old Nan as a Stark.

Hence the suggestion that when the last hero found the Singers and asked for help, it came at a price, binding the Starks to the old powers.

I'm also minded to wonder, given that the bed-time story session drew a clear distinction between Bran the Builder and the last hero, about the parallels between the two Brans. There is a theory, I know, that they might both turn out to be one and the same, but I think that they are separate. Instead I wonder whether the first Bran like the present one did go into the service of the Old Gods, perhaps for a year and a day, not as a white walker because he was too old to be a changeling, but to learn and to be the link between the realms.

Has Heresy ever discussed the possibility that Bran the Builder was actually a Singer/CotF himself? It would make sense since he's mentioned as being a child when he helped build Storm's End and he's credited with building so many other places hundreds of years apart. The Singers/CotF are known to have long lives and having Bran the Builder being one of them would be a logical conclusion. Bran the Builder/Singer/CotF would have been the child exchanged and a Stark child became the first greenseer.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Has Heresy ever discussed the possibility that Bran the Builder was actually a Singer/CotF? It would make sense since he's mentioned as being a child when he helped build Storm's End and he's credited with building so many other places hundreds of years apart. The Singers/CotF are known to have long lives and having Bran the Builder being one of them would be a logical conclusion. Bran the Builder/Singer/CotF would have been the child exchanged and a Stark child became the first greenseer.

In any case he would be the first human greenseer.

Personally I believe the first human greenseers appear at the Pact, from the green men that guard the Isle of Faces. I interpret the pact as a magical communion where men accept the CotF's gods and in return are given "a place at the table", so to speak, by way of their own greenseers.

This all happens after the first men witnessed both the Breaking of the Arm and the Hammer of the Waters, and so wish to commune with these gods rather than fighting such power.

The CotF, who are effectively losing the war because of the FM sheer numbers, are willing to accept not only because of the strategic necessity but also because they believe in the gods of nature, and man for better or worse is still a part of nature.

[Jojen]

Our theories are so close but so different!! I agree the singers caused the Long Night, although it is equally possible the LN simply occurred due to a natural imbalance caused by the rise of humans but I'm willing to blame the singers for the sake of argument. Anyway, I don't see this story really having a "big bad", Show-Jorah spoke true when he said "there's good & evil on either side in every war ever fought". That said, I do think Craster's Boys & their Army of the Damned ARE a significant threat to Westeros and the rest of the world. So I see the singers as desperately trying to maintain a balance, not because they are some sort of mystic guardians tasked with such but because they have decided to. Singer society is based on the principle of balance. In the long ages when they had Westeros to themselves they interpreted "natural balance" into everything they saw. They rationalised that their numbers were few but their years long as being the will of the gods to maintain balance and then along comes humanity. The singers must have been waiting for nature to correct itself, convinced that the gods would put a wolf among the deer but when none appeared they decided to take matters into their own hands. They worked magic and learned to sing the song of ice. This is where we diverge completely, I do not think the singers intentionally created the WW. I think they unleashed the cold that raises the dead and with the use of a greenseer were able to control the zombie horde. But magic is a sword without a hilt and they were not able to anticipate what would happen if the cold took a living host.

Sounds entirely plausible to me.

Although I think there might also be a little bit of an attitude of destroy in order to save what you love on the part of the CotF as well, knowing that nature will eventually bounce back and balance will be restored after the threat has passed.

[Black Crow]

Has Heresy ever discussed the possibility that Bran the Builder was actually a Singer/CotF himself? It would make sense since he's mentioned as being a child when he helped build Storm's End and he's credited with building so many other places hundreds of years apart. The Singers/CotF are known to have long lives and having Bran the Builder being one of them would be a logical conclusion. Bran the Builder/Singer/CotF would have been the child exchanged and a Stark child became the first greenseer.

There's a very clear distinction drawn between Bran the Builder and the Singers in the world book.

[Black Crow]

I believe that it is GRRM who is fond of using red herrings (he even went so far as to name one of his characters Craster)… Personally, I am indifferent to red herrings.

Indeed he does and in this case the red herring is not Craster but the "threat" posed by the white walkers

[Melifeather]

There's a very clear distinction drawn between Bran the Builder and the Singers in the world book.

Was there a blurb of this posted somewhere? Because I thought Bran the Builder was so far put forward as a mythical person, that he was akin to an ancient Greek hero.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

I believe that it is GRRM who is fond of using red herrings (he even went so far as to name one of his characters Craster)… Personally, I am indifferent to red herrings.

Oh, that is clever. Thanks for pointing it out.

For those disinclined to Google: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craster

Note their chief industry.

[Amoracchius]

Was there a blurb of this posted somewhere? Because I thought Bran the Builder was so far put forward as a mythical person, that he was akin to an ancient Greek hero.

And isn't the World Book meant to be written from the perspective of a maester living around the time of Robert's Rebellion? Given the repeatedly mentioned lack of hard evidence about history before the Andal invasion, is there any reason to believe what the World Book says about Bran the Builder? It may be an accurate account of what is believed to have happened thousands of years ago, but it's probably not an accurate account of what actually happened thousands of years ago.