Heresy 117

[Melifeather]

If there are genuine equivalents I'd be much more inclined to rank the wights with the stone men. The white walkers are very much more in the nature of changelings rather than "victims"

I quite agree with Craster's sons being changelings, but I think the originals from the Long Night are different.

edited to add....I see the quote function is working again....

[Harlan]

Thanks.

ETA: What's happened to the Quote function?

If the quote system is giving anyone any problems, simply press the switch in the top left corner of the "post box." Its a button labeled 'BBCode Mode'. It will transform your post into plain text where it will be much easier to edit/write. Quote boxes become bracketed. Simply press the button again to see what your post will actually look like

[Urrax2]

What was going on was, quote boxes were being eliminated and not appearing at all in the posted version, just the quoted text.

[Black Crow]

I quite agree with Craster's sons being changelings, but I think the originals from the Long Night are different.

Ah well I think that's where the question arises. Traditionally the Others have been asumed to be the big bad up in the snow intent on coming down and killing all living things, but what I'm suggesting is that they're not an independent party in this, and that just as children were stolen or sacrificed back in the day so its now happening all over again.

[addicted to snow]

Rather that they are required for a particular purpose - to be the Singers' child soldiers, their very own Bloody Mummers - and so in accordance with the very best Faerie practice they steal or otherwise acquire the children they need as changelings.

Personally, I see this explanation as being unlikely due to a lack of depth that would be consistent with all the other elements of the series.

[wolfmaid7]

Ah well I think that's where the question arises. Traditionally the Others have been asumed to be the big bad up in the snow intent on coming down and killing all living things, but what I'm suggesting is that they're not an independent party in this, and that just as children were stolen or sacrificed back in the day so its now happening all over again.

I agree the WWs have been built up to look a certain way,even though it is clearly humans abandoning their babies to cold and death.Either way you believe they are basically capitalizing on one of the worsts examples of human behavior.

[Black Crow]

Personally, I see this explanation as being unlikely due to a lack of depth that would be consistent with all the other elements of the series.

Nah, its all about the red herrings you're so fond of. What I'm suggesting is that its not the obvious white walkers who are the big threat but the cuddly tree-huggers.

[Urrax2]

Personally, I see this explanation as being unlikely due to a lack of depth that would be consistent with all the other elements of the series.

:agree:

[Melifeather]

Ah well I think that's where the question arises. Traditionally the Others have been asumed to be the big bad up in the snow intent on coming down and killing all living things, but what I'm suggesting is that they're not an independent party in this, and that just as children were stolen or sacrificed back in the day so its now happening all over again.

Let me ask you to clarify what you're suggesting....are you saying that the White Walkers of the Long Night were always the unwanted babies and not a side effect or manufacture of the Children?

[Black Crow]

Let me ask you to clarify what you're suggesting....are you saying that the White Walkers of the Long Night were always the unwanted babies and not a side effect or manufacture of the Children?

I'm suggesting that the Singers [referring to them as Children in this context is confusing] were responsible for the Long Night.

During that Long Night, like other Faerie folk, they stole or otherwise obtained human children, "changing" them into soldiers - the white walkers - to spread terror and drive out those First Men who stubbornly refused to flee.

The Thirteen Brave Companions [the last hero plus the 12 who didn't make it] set out to find the Singers and cry pax

Peace was agreed or restored and dragonglass exchanged for children until the Nights King was overthown

Now deep in the forest something is stirring and the Old Powers on wakening once again have a requirement for changeling children - a new generation of white walkers given up by Craster.

And that's about it in a nutshell - saving the obvious involvement of the Starks back in the day.

[Melifeather]

I'm suggesting that the Singers [referring to them as Children in this context is confusing] were responsible for the Long Night.

During that Long Night, like other Faerie folk, they stole or otherwise obtained human children, "changing" them into soldiers - the white walkers - to spread terror and drive out those First Men who stubbornly refused to flee.

The Thirteen Brave Companions [the last hero plus the 12 who didn't make it] set out to find the Singers and cry pax

Peace was agreed or restored and dragonglass exchanged for children until the Nights King was overthown

Now deep in the forest something is stirring and the Old Powers on wakening once again have a requirement for changeling children - a new generation of white walkers given up by Craster.

And that's about it in a nutshell - saving the obvious involvement of the Starks back in the day.

If the babies are left voluntarily does that necessitate an even exchange?

[Black Crow]

If the babies are left voluntarily does that necessitate an even exchange?

In Faerie lore there has to be an exchange of some kind, but its rarely even. Craster seemed to think he was getting protection, a bit further back I'm suggesting that might have been where the dragonglass came in, but at this stage we really don't know and can't know until Winds of Winter but I'm going to be surprised if the Starks didn't make a pact with the Devil way back...

[Melifeather]

In Faerie lore there has to be an exchange of some kind, but its rarely even. Craster seemed to think he was getting protection, a bit further back I'm suggesting that might have been where the dragonglass came in, but at this stage we really don't know and can't know until Winds of Winter but I'm going to be surprised if the Starks didn't make a pact with the Devil way back...

The dragonglass doesn't seem logical to me, because if the babies are being left exposed to die, and the Children are scooping them up to make their icy, White Walker soldiers, it seems silly to then give the Nights Watch obsidian to kill the icy soldiers with.

[Urrax2]

The dragonglass doesn't seem logical to me, because if the babies are being left exposed to die, and the Children are scooping them up to make their icy, White Walker soldiers, it seems silly to then give the Nights Watch obsidian to kill the icy soldiers with.

:agree:

[Black Crow]

The dragonglass doesn't seem logical to me, because if the babies are being left exposed to die, and the Children are scooping them up to make their icy, White Walker soldiers, it seems silly to then give the Nights Watch obsidian to kill the icy soldiers with.

Not if the children are being given up - not abandoned. That's where the exchange comes in. The Faeries get the human servants they want and Men get a means of defence against those servants.

[redriver]

Personally, I see this explanation as being unlikely due to a lack of depth that would be consistent with all the other elements of the series.

How are you defining depth here?Does it mean a narrative which doesn't involve Bran warging his dead father?Causing weirwoods to uproot and walk round smiting their foes?Antlered men giving babies to the Singers for food?

ETA-Which other elements are you referring to and for what reason?

[Melifeather]

Not if the children are being given up - not abandoned. That's where the exchange comes in. The Faeries get the human servants they want and Men get a means of defence against those servants.

hmmm....I guess I fail to see the logic in this.

I can see human children being left out in the snow as a means to be rid of an unwanted child, and I can see the Singers scooping them up. Maybe there wasn't an exchange until the Pact and then the Singers were "caught" so to speak and owed the debt???

[Black Crow]

I can see human children being left out in the snow as a means to be rid of an unwanted child, and I can see the Singers scooping them up. Maybe there wasn't an exchange until the Pact and then the Singers were "caught" so to speak and owed the debt???

Going on Faerie precedent I'd see it as the first ones being literally stolen, and then later others being given up per agreement by way of tribute - there will be peace beyond the line but to secure it we must have your firstborn or whatever. As I said before its pretty standard Faerie lore and doesn't require an accidental starting point through the deliberate abandonment of children.

[Melifeather]

Going on Faerie precedent I'd see it as the first ones being literally stolen, and then later others being given up per agreement by way of tribute - there will be peace beyond the line but to secure it we must have your firstborn or whatever. As I said before its pretty standard Faerie lore and doesn't require an accidental starting point through the deliberate abandonment of children.

I get the faerie changeling idea, but what I don't get is why the Singers want to make the White Walkers in the first place? Are they simply shepherds of the dead, bringing the wights to squirrel away for food? The idea I'm hung up on is taking the child to make the White Walker and then leaving the obsidian to kill the White Walker.

[wolfmaid7]

hmmm....I guess I fail to see the logic in this.

I can see human children being left out in the snow as a means to be rid of an unwanted child, and I can see the Singers scooping them up. Maybe there wasn't an exchange until the Pact and then the Singers were "caught" so to speak and owed the debt???

This to me seems plausible

Going on Faerie precedent I'd see it as the first ones being literally stolen, and then later others being given up per agreement by way of tribute - there will be peace beyond the line but to secure it we must have your firstborn or whatever. As I said before its pretty standard Faerie lore and doesn't require an accidental starting point through the deliberate abandonment of children.

I'm having a problem seeing this BC,more so the "stolen" part i mean where would they have stolen the babies from? How? Snuck into First men camps and taken their babies. I think GRRM altered this lore to fit his theme of the human condition.Whereby "whoever" took advantage of abandoned babies during the Long night.

Nan alluded to this possibly happening where women killed their babies than seeing them suffer from hunger.