How would you make the North rich and/or powerful?

[Pod The Impaler]

It's not variety. It's quantity. The North is largely uncultivated.

Yup. If anything, their mineral wealth should exceed any other part of the realm, but who would be around to discover and mine it ?

Agriculture is another matter, though. They would have a tough time growing crops compared to elsewhere. If the Riverlands were part of their realm (as Robb had intended) this would make them much more powerful for that reason alone.

[Lee-Sensei]

He was also going to marry Jaime to a Tully, and a second daughter at that. Cersei's marriage was also at a time of war and going to be used to win allies; her last husband was King on the Iron Throne though, so pretty good track record considering she is nearly past childbearing years anyways. At best she could have one more child.

A second daughter is no less valuable than a first daughter. It only matters with sons. Take for example Oberyn and Doran. Doran was the heir to Dorne. Oberyn only stands to inherit Dorne if Doran dies. Comparing it to sisters, neither Cat or Lysa stood to inherit the Riverlands, but marrying them could bind the Tullys to another Kingdom in alliance.

Tywin clearly meant for it to be a lasting thing so he could lay claim to the Iron Islands.

Cersei isn't "nearly past childbearing age". She was in her early 30's at the time. She still had 15 to 20 years at best. Simply put, the fact that the Starks and Greyjoys are Great Houses means they're viable options. That's all it means.

[Lee-Sensei]

Yup. If anything, their mineral wealth should exceed any other part of the realm, but who would be around to discover and mine it ?

Agriculture is another matter, though. They would have a tough time growing crops compared to elsewhere. If the Riverlands were part of their realm (as Robb had intended) this would make them much more powerful for that reason alone.

Yeah. Robb's Northern Kingdom including the Riverlands if it could make peace would have become very rich in time. The Northern military with the wealth of the riverlands would have made it a major force.

[The Wolves]

I've always felt that the first few chapters of the series when the Baratheons go North was meant to be a medieval version of the country mouse meets city mouse trope. Ned's old friend from the big city meets up with him in his country home full of people stuck in their "old ways". Both the Iron Islands and the North are politically distanced from the politics of the South (and Dorne is too for that matter), and the Iron Born are stupid. The Northerners aren't quite as stupid, but I did get the feeling that most of them aren't exactly geniuses either.

Okay I agree with this.

I don't see the North as caring so much about what's above the Neck

[Leonardo]

A second daughter is no less valuable than a first daughter. It only matters with sons. Take for example Oberyn and Doran. Doran was the heir to Dorne. Oberyn only stands to inherit Dorne if Doran dies. Comparing it to sisters, neither Cat or Lysa stood to inherit the Riverlands, but marrying them could bind the Tullys to another Kingdom in alliance.

Tywin clearly meant for it to be a lasting thing so he could lay claim to the Iron Islands.

Cersei isn't "nearly past childbearing age". She was in her early 30's at the time. She still had 15 to 20 years at best. Simply put, the fact that the Starks and Greyjoys are Great Houses means they're viable options. That's all it means.

Umm

WHAT lol

The idea of a woman having a child past 40 was/is EXTREMELY risky, and Cersei was at least 34. She had 5-6 years at best.

Exactly, they're great houses and not hillbillies, so what are you arguing?

[Lee-Sensei]

Certainly not a fact at all

Aye, the VALE

Which accounts for like 5% total of the Arryn's held lands. Most of it is mountainous as hell, the most mountainous region in Westeros and one of the smallest. Gulltown is barely above White Harbor in terms of importance. We've also heard about sailing trouble off the fingers and such, while we never hear about it in Northern waters really.

The Dornish definitely aren't richer

I meant aside from Gulltown, the Dornish and Stormlanders have no real port city unlike the North and Vale.

Asha brought pinecones and such to represent LAND, which as she rightly sees, is worth way more than any temporary plunder. Land means you can tax the people on it and actually get an economy moving.

How is the North largely uncultivated, and how would that not count as a huge natural resource even if it were so? That means a lot more available income if someone is working the land.

We haven't seen how many men the Vale can field, but in all likelihood it's less than the North and certainly not greater.

The North is almost certainly richer than the Vale due to its land and silvermines. Apparently you can't beat pulling money out of the ground, either in goods or in precious minerals.

No. Asha was clearly saying that the North was uncultivated and poor with little to offer (much like the Iron Islands themselves actually).

[Lee-Sensei]

Umm

WHAT lol

The idea of a woman having a child past 40 was/is EXTREMELY risky, and Cersei was at least 34. She had 5-6 years at best.

Exactly, they're great houses and not hillbillies, so what are you arguing?

Menopause happens between 45 and 55. But let's go with 45. That's about 12 years. The idea that she could only have 1 child is ridiculous.

[Leonardo]

Menopause happens between 45 and 55. But let's go with 45. That's about 12 years. The idea that she could only have 1 child is ridiculous.

Aye, but medieval people didn't know that

It's also harder to get pregnant as you grow older, so after 40 you're generally considered past childbearing age at this time. Assume Cersei gets pregnant right away, and you're still looking at her being around 36 before it's been long enough to try again, not to mention the fact of how much more risky pregnancy becomes.

It's not ridiculous, it's practical, especially with someone like Tywin.

Also you still haven't replied: who says the North is largely uncultivated, and how are you not counting that as a huge natural resource, bigger than any the Arryns have to offer? Uncultivated means its arable, just not being worked.

[averde]

intermarry within the Northern houses to secure the Starks power base. Build some sort of sea watch tower at the end of Flints Finger to send warning of any kind of Ironborn invasion or any other kind of sea invasion. Never leave the North.

[finnegan_stark]

Menopause happens between 45 and 55. But let's go with 45. That's about 12 years. The idea that she could only have 1 child is ridiculous.

In feudal Westeros where 17 year old Lyanna Stark bled out from childbirth and her own mother died at a younger age in the same situation? I'd say getting more than 1 child safely born in years of rapidly decreasing fertility (not to mention wanting to spend so much of that potential fertility shagging your bro) is pushing it.

[finnegan_stark]

intermarry within the Northern houses to secure the Starks power base. Build some sort of sea watch tower at the end of Flints Finger to send warning of any kind of Ironborn invasion or any other kind of sea invasion. Never leave the North.

:agree:

[Pod The Impaler]

In feudal Westeros where 17 year old Lyanna Stark bled out from childbirth and her own mother died at a younger age in the same situation? I'd say getting more than 1 child safely born in years of rapidly decreasing fertility (not to mention wanting to spend so much of that potential fertility shagging your bro) is pushing it.

Every birth was like Russian Roulette - a risk - because medicine was unable to properly deal with bleeding out, infections and so on. And some women just were better built for birthing, regardless of fertility.

[Leonardo]

In feudal Westeros where 17 year old Lyanna Stark bled out from childbirth and her own mother died at a younger age in the same situation? I'd say getting more than 1 child safely born in years of rapidly decreasing fertility (not to mention wanting to spend so much of that potential fertility shagging your bro) is pushing it.

Although I agree wholly with the statement, Lyanna Stark died of a fever, not childbirth. Most people think it was a fever due to infection or something from childbirth, but it was a fever and not bloodloss that killed her, if we are to believe any of what Ned says. Jon was born around the sack of KL, so around a month later.

[Lee-Sensei]

In feudal Westeros where 17 year old Lyanna Stark bled out from childbirth and her own mother died at a younger age in the same situation? I'd say getting more than 1 child safely born in years of rapidly decreasing fertility (not to mention wanting to spend so much of that potential fertility shagging your bro) is pushing it.

Cersei isn't Lyanna.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

People can we return to OP. How to make North more rich/ powerful again?

[finnegan_stark]

Although I agree wholly with the statement, Lyanna Stark died of a fever, not childbirth. Most people think it was a fever due to infection or something from childbirth, but it was a fever and not bloodloss that killed her, if we are to believe any of what Ned says. Jon was born around the sack of KL, so around a month later.

I stand corrected :thumbsup:

[Lee-Sensei]

Aye, but medieval people didn't know that

It's also harder to get pregnant as you grow older, so after 40 you're generally considered past childbearing age at this time. Assume Cersei gets pregnant right away, and you're still looking at her being around 36 before it's been long enough to try again, not to mention the fact of how much more risky pregnancy becomes.

It's not ridiculous, it's practical, especially with someone like Tywin.

Also you still haven't replied: who says the North is largely uncultivated, and how are you not counting that as a huge natural resource, bigger than any the Arryns have to offer? Uncultivated means its arable, just not being worked.

You haven't answered. Where does it say that the North has more natural resources than the Vale?

[Leonardo]

You haven't answered. Where does it say that the North has more natural resources than the Vale?

Silver, Lumber and furs are all mentioned. That already is more than the Vale has, which as stands is none to speak of.

[The Wolves]

Isn't the area around the Gift fertile land? They can export food.

Also I think the Wildings should have been incorporated years ago.

The Winter Town should be inhabited year round with the are used as faming and fishing(isn't the White Knife right near the Winter Town?)

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

have manderly continue to build a fleet and trade with essos, refortify moat cailin and name someone castellan and build a port at sea dragon point with more ships for either trading or for the fleet.