Torinarg Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 As I am new and there are thousands of threads I appologise if this has been covered before, which it almost certainly has. The question in the title, do you view The Red Wedding as a crime or legitimate tactic of war?Myself I go for a legitimate tactic, even in the 21st century tactics not dis-similar to this have been used, Bin-Laden, Saddam's sons etc. The 20th century was rife which such events carried out by what may be considered the good guys. What are your views on this?Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 In Universe it's an Unforgivable Crime, so its a crime. Period.As for you calling it a strategy, it wasn't a strategy, it was a strategic and PR disaster for Freys. It's because of RW that they are being hanged willy nilly by Brotherhood Without Banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOldWolf Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 If you believe in Guest Right then it's probably one of the worst crimes you can commit in the ASOIAF universe along with Kinslaying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 My heart is wolfish - so I say "crime". Granted, crime is in the eyes of the beholder; If you hold the throne, you absolve yourself of everything. That being said, the Old Gods do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 it a crime that was a good tactic for the Lannisters. I don't consider Frey pies a crime because it was Retribution for the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver King Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Crime (a hella effective one though). Because of the religions and customs in Westeros though, a move like that just isn't worth the negative connotations that will be associated with your House. Quick fix for dealing with your enemies but the consequences are going to be overwhelming,House Frey will soon learn this lesson. A tactic that gets rid of a handful of enemies but could potentially turn the entire realm against your House is no tactic at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll pay the iron price Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It could be argued that Robb Stark was a rebel (depending on your point of view) and that Walder was doing a service to the crown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a crime. However I believe that the Freys had no choice. Robb was doomed. He lost the North, his most trusted general had turned against him and had masterminded the death of his infantry. Unlike the other families the Freys had no history and no respect. That wasn't going to change if Walder accepted Robb's insult without at least retaliate. If the Lannisters won and he did nothing about it then he would probably have lost the bridge which was the only source for the Freys. Under such circumstances they had no choice but to bow to Tywin's requests and obey him in everything he ordered them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Technically it wasn't a crime since Robb wasn't the actual king of Westeros (rebelling against the crown) and breaking guest rights is against the gods but not the law. It could be a crime since they butchered far more unarmed people than they needed to (if at all). Wasn't there an actual law against that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a crime. However I believe that the Freys had no choice. Robb was doomed. He lost the North, his most trusted general had turned against him and had masterminded the death of his infantry. Unlike the other families the Freys had no history and no respect. That wasn't going to change if Walder accepted Robb's insult without at least retaliate. If the Lannisters won and he did nothing about it then he would probably have lost the bridge which was the only source for the Freys. Under such circumstances they had no choice but to bow to Tywin's requests and obey him in everything he ordered them to do. Or you know, they could have just refused to let Robb cross their bridge and waited for the Lannister-Tyrell army to come crush him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Let's see - every man and woman in the series whose opinion we know is utterly disgusted and spits on the name of Frey. I'd say it's a crime, and a pretty horrible one. If you consider Martinverse to be gritty and crappy place to live in; imagine how much worse would it be if everyone behaved like the Freys - nobody would trust nobody and wars would be 10x more bloody and costly. Homo homini Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a crime and a cowardly one, not an impressive tactic. Tywin should be embarrassed, he had to get his enemy under the protection of guest right, half drunk and completely defenceless in order to defeat him. Not a victory in my eyes, more like cowards play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thendel Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Or you know, they could have just refused to let Robb cross their bridge and waited for the Lannister-Tyrell army to come crush him... But that wouldn't have won houses Bolton and Frey nearly as great rewards as they garnered by executing the Red Wedding. Lord Walder didn't have to break the most sacred of customs in such spectacular fashion, but he did so anyways, out of pure spite, vindictiveness and avarice.Even if we didn't apply modern standards to our view on the warfare of Westeros, it still constitutes a crime by the universe's own rules, so I don't know how you can look at it any other way. Tywin using a utilitarian argument riddled with falsehoods to "justify" the Red Wedding hardly qualifies for what we should consider legitimate tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll pay the iron price Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a crime and a cowardly one, not an impressive tactic. Tywin should be embarrassed, he had to get his enemy under the protection of guest right, half drunk and completely defenceless in order to defeat him. Not a victory in my eyes, more like cowards play. Thats why Tywin is the number 1 lord. He will do anything to secure victory. A stark (apart from maybe Arya) cares too much about doing whats "honourable" Its no good being honourable when everyone around you is fighting dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Both, either. If you consider that law derives from the King, and that King Joffrey gave his blessing to the mass extermination of the criminal/rebellious Northmen, then it was perfectly legitimate. If law derives from traditions, values, and religion, then yes, it was a crime. It really goes either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Or you know, they could have just refused to let Robb cross their bridge and waited for the Lannister-Tyrell army to come crush him... Lets say Walder said no to Tywin's plan and that he was going to work according to his plan. What makes you think that Tywin would have moved his army, in enemy lands and into a probable trap to save his arse? Tywin wasn't really a great general. Throughout his lifetime the Grey joys destroyed his fleet and a teenager gave his forces 3 successive defeat. Even during Balon's rebellion he left war in the hands of Robert and Eddard and that despite the Lannisters were the ones who lost the most out of that conflict. So really, what makes you think that Tywin would have opted to protect the Tully's bannermen in a land which was hostile to him and his armies when he could have easily closed an eye and let the diminishing North army lose precious soldiers and time trying to attempt to capture one of the strongest fortresses in Westeros? Once the fight was over, Tywin would invade the Riverlands, eliminate those who remained standing and claim the Riverlands as part of his own. I am sure Mace would have loved to break the Riverlands 50-50% with the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Priest Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a massive tactical mistake, it gained the Freys absolutely nothing but everyone's hatred and contempt. Only the Lannisters gained a little but even that is unlikely to last versus the universal disgust and contempt it earned them in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It was a massive tactical mistake, it gained the Freys absolutely nothing but everyone's hatred and contempt. Only the Lannisters gained a little but even that is unlikely to last versus the universal disgust and contempt it earned them in the long term. I disagree. The Freys went into the winner's good books, they kept hold of the bridge, they had enough wards to last a lifetime and had Roose marry to one of they own. They also got Riverrun and got rid of the Tully's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osha13 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Legit. Robb was an idiot. Catelyn didn't help him much. In Roose and Walder's shoes, a lot of people would of done the same. Robb should have never given Roose control of half their forces when he was scared of him, should of never dishonored the planned marriage with Walder Frey's daughter, and should of never beheaded Rickard Karstark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 But that wouldn't have won houses Bolton and Frey nearly as great rewards as they garnered by executing the Red Wedding. Lord Walder didn't have to break the most sacred of customs in such spectacular fashion, but he did so anyways, out of pure spite, vindictiveness and avarice.Even if we didn't apply modern standards to our view on the warfare of Westeros, it still constitutes a crime by the universe's own rules, so I don't know how you can look at it any other way. Tywin using a utilitarian argument riddled with falsehoods to "justify" the Red Wedding hardly qualifies for what we should consider legitimate tactics.Hey, I'm not really disagreeing. I was just arguing against the idea that Walder Frey had "no other choice" but to perform the RW to gain Lannister support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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