Why the Lord of Harrenhal is not the most powerful in the riverlands ?

[Elkrider]

The real question is how Riverrun usurped the Twins, when the Freys had far more valuable land.

Eeryone else has addressed Harrenhal, so I'll take a stab at this one.

From the Storm of Swords Appendix:

Lord Edmyn Tully of Riverrun was one of the first of the river lords to swear fealty to Aegon the Conqueror. The victorious Aegon rewarded him by raising House Tully to dominion over all the lands of the Trident.

The Tullys, like the Tyrells, were raised to Lord Paramounts because of Aegon the Conqueror. They saw which way the wind was blowing and jumped right quick. Getting rid of Harren the Black, who was rather unpopular in the Riverlands, was also a plus. It wasn't really usurping the Freys, as they weren't taking the Freys' titles or lands.

If the Freys bent quick enough to Aegon, maybe they could have been lords of the Trident. Although, the Freys are a rather young family who are only powerful because of their bridge. Nouveau rich, so to speak. The Tullys seem to be an older family, seeing as no one insults their heritage the way the Freys are insulted. That may play a role in why they were awarded the Trident as well.

[sertravisredbeard]

Because the castle changes hands every fifty years or so. It seems that a great portion of the smallfolk that would pay it taxes are slaughtered every time the high-borns in Westeros get their dander up and start killing each other. It's hard to keep a loyal power-base when no one knows you, plus the ones that do keep dying.

[RumHam]

The Tullys, like the Tyrells, were raised to Lord Paramounts because of Aegon the Conqueror. They saw which way the wind was blowing and jumped right quick. Getting rid of Harren the Black, who was rather unpopular in the Riverlands, was also a plus. It wasn't really usurping the Freys, as they weren't taking the Freys' titles or lands.

The Freys are still looked down upon as an "upstart" family three hundred years after the conquest. It's interesting that Aegon elevated the Tullys instead of having the Valyrian house Qoherys rule the riverlands from Harrenhal. Maybe Aegon wanted to keep Westeroi family in charge to prevent rebellions?

[Mithras]

I think Harrenhal will eventually be the capitol, something which Aegon should have done 300 years ago. I expect Crownlands and Riverlands to merge, so the king at Harrenhal will be perhaps the wealthiest and strongest lord in the Realm even with only his own domains.

[Minstral]

I am interested if the Whents fought on the side of the Targs during the time Robert and the others rose in rebellion. If they had then they would have probably followed House Darry in losing lands and wealth. Either way, it would have been before this war and the War of the 5 kings that Harrenhal's lands would have been a rich and desirable lordship. The Lannisters remark that the raising of Baelish to this seat is a hollow gesture and I believe it. The castle and its lands have been the host to several armies that foraged the area clean and put many of its people to the sword when it changed hands back and forth between Lannister, Bolton, Hoat and Clegane.

The Freys are still looked down upon as an "upstart" family three hundred years after the conquest. It's interesting that Aegon elevated the Tullys instead of having the Valyrian house Qoherys rule the riverlands from Harrenhal. Maybe Aegon wanted to keep Westeroi family in charge to prevent rebellions?

It would keep in line with his policy of keeping local elites in power as opposed to raising up his own men in their place, like raising the Tyrells in place of the Gardeners or the other Kings keeping their lands but losing their crowns. Also, he landed with something like three thousand men and would not have been able to supplant the nobility anyway. As to raising one of his own to the title, perhaps he originally envisioned that the Targs would have this family sworn directly to them as opposed to Riverrun.

[not in the face]

Maekar died fighting a Lothston lord correct? It could have been a bloody battle causing Harrenhal to lose much of it's strength. It takes time to recover men.

[Fire Eater]

Maekar died fighting a Lothston lord correct? It could have been a bloody battle causing Harrenhal to lose much of it's strength. It takes time to recover men.

No, it was a Peake.

[not in the face]

No, it was a Peake.

Very interesting! Source? I know the wiki is not canon.

[sertravisredbeard]

That's from a summary of a reading from the World of Ice and Fire. I don't have the link but if you search for it on here you can find it. It's a summary of the history of the Westerlands.

Lots of interesting stuff about Tywin and his father's generation, and the rebellions of the Reynes and Tarbecks. It's got a lot of history of some of the other Westerlands families too.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Very interesting! Source? I know the wiki is not canon.

wiki

I think Harrenhal will eventually be the capitol, something which Aegon should have done 300 years ago. I expect Crownlands and Riverlands to merge, so the king at Harrenhal will be perhaps the wealthiest and strongest lord in the Realm even with only his own domains.

Agreed

[Elkrider]

I think Harrenhal will eventually be the capitol, something which Aegon should have done 300 years ago. I expect Crownlands and Riverlands to merge, so the king at Harrenhal will be perhaps the wealthiest and strongest lord in the Realm even with only his own domains.

But also one of the least defensible. That's always been the Riverlands' curse. You'd have the Reach, the Westerlands, and the Vale on your borders. If they don't recognize this hypothetical Lord of Harrenhal as king, they'd pick away at the edges. It's important to note that historically, various factions have controlled both the Riverlands and the Crownlands--the Storm Kings and Harren's family. The former lost the Riverlands and the Crownlands to Duskendale and Rosby to Harren's ancestors. Neither of those factions control the region anymore. Point being, it's a difficult region to keep, even though it does bring great wealth. That won't keep it safe forever.

[Mithras]

But also one of the least defensible. That's always been the Riverlands' curse. You'd have the Reach, the Westerlands, and the Vale on your borders. If they don't recognize this hypothetical Lord of Harrenhal as king, they'd pick away at the edges. It's important to note that historically, various factions have controlled both the Riverlands and the Crownlands--the Storm Kings and Harren's family. The former lost the Riverlands and the Crownlands to Duskendale and Rosby to Harren's ancestors. Neither of those factions control the region anymore. Point being, it's a difficult region to keep, even though it does bring great wealth. That won't keep it safe forever.

I would not say least defensible. Riverlands is open to raids but conquering Riverlands is much harder. Raiding against the king's authority is very dangerous. Harrenhal is impregnable if fully garrisoned and the enemy does not have dragons. Being at the center with the king's authority is the best for a king of the ealm. Even if some region rebels against the crown, the other regions come aid the king. The North cannot be conquered by a Southerner army but in the time of a crisis, it cannot easily get help either.

[Talking Hodor]

I agree with other posters that it is the cost to maintain the castle and it's difficulty in fully-garrisoning along with the curse.

Not to mention it's falling apart. It's probably difficult to defend, and morale there would absolutely suck (people believing the curse). It changed hands four times in just one novel.

[Elkrider]

I would not say least defensible. Riverlands is open to raids but conquering Riverlands is much harder. Raiding against the king's authority is very dangerous. Harrenhal is impregnable if fully garrisoned and the enemy does not have dragons. Being at the center with the king's authority is the best for a king of the ealm. Even if some region rebels against the crown, the other regions come aid the king. The North cannot be conquered by a Southerner army but in the time of a crisis, it cannot easily get help either.

That's all dependable on whether or not this king has popular support in other regions. If he does, fine, he has no problems. But if he doesn't, then it becomes a problem without a solution. Any capital in any region would have a problem. The indefensiblity of the riverlands just makes things harder.

[LordParas]

1. It was an imperialist castle of Ironborn, not original riverland's lord or castle

2. After it was ruined, Tully became the strongest house of riverland because they are indigenous house

3. Every Lord of Harrenhall were damed by ghost of harrenhall after aegon conquest, every houses were extinct

[Littlestfinger]

Most of you have it backwards - the seat doesn't make the lord powerful, the lord makes the seat important. What makes a lord important and powerful is his place in the feudal hierarchy. The Tullys were powerful not because of Riverrun but because everyone else in the Riverlands owed them fealty. For a real life example from the Wars of the Roses, the Percys were one of the most powerful houses in all of Britain not because their seat at Topcliffe was particularly rich or important, but because half the North owed them fealty. After several generations of holding that wealth, power, and prestige they eventually built a much more impressive castle for themselves at Alnwick.

[The Frosted King]

The first order of business for a new lord of Harrenhal should've been to tear down the castle and erect a smaller, more manageable seat in its place.

Reuse as much stone as possible, and allow the excess to be used by the smallfolk to redo their own cottages. And the landed knights sworn to the lord.

First comes the lord, then his sworn vassals and lastly the smallfolk.

It would be costly, but allow the latter costs to be shredded, and ensure your not figuratively throwing money into a hole for the foreseeable future.

Bigger than Darry, smaller than Riverrun, but wealthier than both!

Too bad aristocratic pride prevents such wisdom.

[Ygritte]

I am interested if the Whents fought on the side of the Targs during the time Robert and the others rose in rebellion. If they had then they would have probably followed House Darry in losing lands and wealth.

Quite probably. One Whent was in Aerys's KG. And at the time of the tourney, there's a daughter and multiple sons milling around, but by the time of the books, there's only just the dowager lady there (there are conflicting accounts, according to the Wiki, of exactly how she was related to everybody). I suspect they did fight for the Targs and took heavy losses.

[Basileus777]

Quite probably. One Whent was in Aerys's KG. And at the time of the tourney, there's a daughter and multiple sons milling around, but by the time of the books, there's only just the dowager lady there (there are conflicting accounts, according to the Wiki, of exactly how she was related to everybody). I suspect they did fight for the Targs and took heavy losses.

Hoster Tully was married to a Whent. That's a much closer tie than a Kingsguard appointment.

As far as Harrenhal's strength, the lords probably just don't control as much lands as the Freys and Tullys. Considering the history of the houses that have ruled there, it seems likely that the power and lands the seat control have waned.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Freys are still looked down upon as an "upstart" family three hundred years after the conquest. It's interesting that Aegon elevated the Tullys instead of having the Valyrian house Qoherys rule the riverlands from Harrenhal. Maybe Aegon wanted to keep Westeroi family in charge to prevent rebellions?

Lord Edmyn Tully led a successful rebellion against Harren the Black way before Harren lost against Aegon. Indeed, it was this very rebellion that forced Harren to retreat into his castle, with Aegon only needing to burn him out.

Lord Edmyn Tully made himself the Lord of the native Riverlanders. Aegon just rubberstamped it. That's the reason the Tullys are more respected than the Tyrells, by the way.