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Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree


Lady Barbrey

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Ned playing a joke. Does that sound like Ned, at all? Ned Stark? Grim, humorless, honorable, shy, quiet, cant-ask-a-girl-to-dance Ned Stark?

Or does it sound like the "wolf's blood" girl who stopped Howland from being attacked in the first place.

its Lyanna.

Well, it's still very interesting that this a joke probably directed at Robert Baratheon.

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I don't see where the KotLT is at all comparable to Jaime killing Aerys. No one disputes that Jaime killed Aerys; the mystery is why he did so. Whereas the entire identity of the knight is a mystery, not the motives. And I dare say that killing a king is a more serious act than riding as a mystery knight in a tournament. Jaime never thinks of participating in the tourney once Aerys dismisses him, not even indirectly (i.e. he doesn't think of seeing anything at the tournament after being dismissed, not just that he never thinks of being the knight specifically).

Again, it's Lyanna. It's not even that hard to conclude, just another case of people overcomplicating something that really isn't that complicated.

That's a somewhat condescending last comment. When I read the books and figured out that story I thought it was Lyanna too, but it never sat quite right because it was too Lord of the Rings. I had hoped my original post would discourage blanket negatives from people so attached to one theory they couldn't see past it. I had also hoped that if there was any actual proof in the negative, this alternative could be dismissed. But you haven't offered any.

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Well, it's still very interesting that this a joke probably directed at Robert Baratheon.

How? It's Lyanna sticking up for those who have been picked on---Howland Reed, in this case. Robert's there, getting drunk and being Robert. Lyanna isn't focused on Robert; she's avenging her new friend.

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Do you have anything in the books that suggests that Jaime stayed at the tournament after being dismissed? Because your theory pretty hinges on that. And Jaime can become disillusioned with knighthood at the tournament without being the knight. One doesn't necessarily rely on the other.

They left through Harrenhal’s smaller eastern gate, and took their leave of Roose Bolton and his host six miles farther on, turning south to follow along the lake road for a time. Walton meant to

avoid the kingsroad as long as he could, preferring the farmer’s tracks and game trails near the Gods Eye.

“The kingsroad would be faster.” Jaime was anxious to return to Cersei as quickly as he could. if they made haste, he might even arrive in time for Joffrey’s wedding.

“I want no trouble,” said Steelshanks. “Gods know who we’d meet along that kingsroad.”

“No one you need fear, surely? You have two hundred men.”

“Aye. But others might have more. M’lord said to bring you safe to your lord father, and that’s what I mean to do.”

I have come this way before, Jaime reflected a few miles further on, when they passed a deserted mill beside the lake. Weeds now grew where once the miller’s daughter had smiled shyly at him, and the miller himself had shouted out, “The tourney’s back the other way, ser.” As if I had not known.

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime’s investiture. He said his vows before the king’s pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King’s Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who’d remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent’s tourney, Aerys had refused. “He’ll win no glory here,” the king had said. “He’s mine now, not Tywin’s. He’ll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he’ll obey.”

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he’d ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late. He had said the words whilst half the realm looked on, and a Kingsguard served for life.

It is clear that Jaime did leave Harrenhal, and nothing here hints that he disobeyed the order - quite the contrary, he didn't dare to oppose.

Concerning the mystery of the laughing weirwood: if KotLT was Lyanna, it was the biggest prank that she might have pulled: she was doing something totally forbidden, fooling everyone present, the king included, and kicking some knights' asses. Not knowing the outcome, it must have seen magnificent.

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How? It's Lyanna sticking up for those who have been picked on---Howland Reed, in this case. Robert's there, getting drunk and being Robert. Lyanna isn't focused on Robert; she's avenging her new friend.

Ok, interesting. I see your point.I'm not very well versed on this.

Ok, so this knight knocked on three shields that were chosen for honor rather than what was easiest? Very bizarre reversal of the Ashford Tourney, lol.

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Ok, interesting. I see your point.I'm not very well versed on this.

Ok, so this knight knocked on three shields that were chosen for honor rather than what was easiest? Very bizarre reversal of the Ashford Tourney, lol.

Not really a revelsal of Ashford.

That technique was only used against Prince Valarr... Those better than the prince did not dare challange him, out of fear of defeating him, and those who did challange him, allowed themselves to loose, all to stay on Valarrs good side... Valarr would have been their king, after all.

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I will stick with Howland being controlled by BloodRaven in response to his prayer to the olds gods. (He might easily have learnt actually effective prayers during his time on the isle of Faces). Skinchanging into an human is bad unless they let you do it.


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Not really a revelsal of Ashford.

That technique was only used against Prince Valarr... Those better than the prince did not dare challange him, out of fear of defeating him, and those who did challange him, allowed themselves to loose, all to stay on Valarrs good side... Valarr would have been their king, after all.

No, you misunderstand me. Raymun and Dunk were discussing a common strategy of figuring out who the worst knight of the bunch was to knock on their shield. Dunk could not choose Valaar, of course, because he couldn't afford to lose his armor. He needed to choose between Leo Longthorn, the Laughing Storm, Ser Humfrey Hardyng, Valarr and someone else.

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It is clear that Jaime did leave Harrenhal, and nothing here hints that he disobeyed the order - quite the contrary, he didn't dare to oppose.

Thanks for finding the text.

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I will stick with Howland being controlled by BloodRaven in response to his prayer to the olds gods. (He might easily have learnt actually effective prayers during his time on the isle of Faces). Skinchanging into an human is bad unless they let you do it.

1) can Bloodraven joust?

2) why does KotLT change his voice?

3) why does KotLT keep his face covered?

The disguise made sense before he jousted as he was afraid of bringing himself shame if he lost, but as he won, this reason no longer applies.

Thanks for finding the text.

It always helps to work directly with the source.

Also, this bit:

The little crannogman was walking across the field, enjoying the warm spring day and harming none, when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three.

The squires are not described as exceptionally big for their age, so we have average fifteen-year olds. Jaime is never mentioned as a slow grower, so he would be too big at fifteen, as well.

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“There was one knight,” said Meera, “in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one.”

“Or not.” Jojen’s face was dappled with green shadows. “Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I’m sure.”

...

“You never heard this tale from your father?” asked Jojen.

...

“Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?” asked Jojen. “Your lord father never told it to you?”



I bet the old gods sent him.”

“Perhaps they did."

...


“He was the little crannogman, I told you.”

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm."

...

"And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered... by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?”




Is it just me, or is it that Meera and Jojen actually know who KotLT was? All that repeated emphasis on the mystery while making sure time and again if Bran really doesn't know the story - I think it is well possible that it started as a sort of joke, that they wanted Bran to realize which story it is, but when they found out he was ignorant of this part of his family history, they decided not to press the issue.


Also, Bran arrives at the conclusion that it was the crannogman:

All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

Now, do we have any example in the books of a first interpretation that is correct?

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I started this not overly convinced myself but the more people tell me their objections to Jaime the more I'm getting convinced this could be a viable alternate theory to the Lyanna theory. None of the objections so far really hold water, and there's enough textual evidence to make it a possibility.

Actually, there is no textual evidence whatsoever that Jaime is the KLT. What you have here is a notion that can't be disproved outright. But if that is the standard, the list hardly stop at Jaime.

We can't prove that Jaime was not small at 15, even though it's very unlikely he was; there is not that many inches left of growth in a man at 15, so he was likely already flirting with six feet tall). For example, I'm 6'3'', at 15 I was about 6'.

We can't claim for certain that Jaime would likely not have heard about the bullying incident, but it's unlikely that he did. It's huge tourney and the Lannister do not run in the same circle as the Starks.

We can't claim it was impossible for Jaime to come back undercover, he could have left his retinue behind and come back undercover, but that does not make it likely.

We can't claim for certain that Jaime, being on the road, did not have easy access to old gods inspired armories, but I can't for the life of me guess where he would have gotten that weirwood coat of arms the KLT rode with.

I could go on, the bottom line is maybe we can't prove it was NOT Jaime, but there is no textual evidence to suggest that it was. It's extremely unlikely.

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I could go on, the bottom line is maybe we can't prove it was NOT Jaime, but there is no textual evidence to suggest that it was. It's extremely unlikely.

See Ygrain's post with the text of Jamie's recollection of Harrenhal. Jamie left the tourney.

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That's a somewhat condescending last comment. When I read the books and figured out that story I thought it was Lyanna too, but it never sat quite right because it was too Lord of the Rings. I had hoped my original post would discourage blanket negatives from people so attached to one theory they couldn't see past it. I had also hoped that if there was any actual proof in the negative, this alternative could be dismissed. But you haven't offered any.

And you haven't exactly offered any proof that it's Jaime, either. If you think it's Jaime, the onus is on you to support that.

Your negative feeling about it being Lyanna has no bearing whatsoever on it being Lyanna. It's not not Lyanna because you find it "too Lord of the Rings."

Is it just me, or is it that Meera and Jojen actually know who KotLT was?

Yep, I think they know exactly who it was. The "mystery" in their story is for Bran's (and our) benefit.

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OP

Coincidentally, I was reading the chapter where Jaime leaves Harrenhal right before I saw this. Going back over it again, there are a few things that could support your theory.

I have come this way before, Jaime reflected a few miles further on, when they passed a deserted mill beside the lake. Weeds now grew where once the miller’s daughter had smiled shyly at him, and the miller himself had shouted out, “The tourney’s back the other way, ser.” As if I had not known.

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime’s investiture. He said his vows before the king’s pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King’s Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who’d remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent’s tourney, Aerys had refused. “He’ll win no glory here,” the king had said. “He’s mine now, not Tywin’s. He’ll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he’ll obey.”

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he’d ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late. He had said the words whilst half the realm looked on, and a Kingsguard served for life.

At that moment Qyburn interrupts his thoughts and starts a conversation, so his recollections end for the moment. Whatever else he would have revealed to the readers conveniently ends right there. However, just from that quote we have several intersting things: motive, means, and opportunity.

Motive: He's angry at Aerys for making him a Kingsguard to punish his father instead of rewarding him for his skills and he's resentful of the Kingsguard vows that have basically made him a prisoner for life, but he cannot do anything publicly.

Means: He's a very good, though young, fighter who is riding on a wave of confidence because he helped defeat a famous outlaw.

Opportunity: He is now one of the few important people in Westeros not at the Tourneyment.

Returning to the tourney and entering as a mystery knight allows him to do several things: 1. disobey Aerys and get a little revenge 2. do so without publicly dishonoring himself 3. all the while showing off how good a fighter he is (i.e. proving to himself he's good enough to deserve appointment to the Kingsguard on his own merit, not having anything to do with his father.)

In the present the party continues on and comes across a burned inn that Jaime also remembers. He ate dinner there when was journeying away from Harrenhal the first time. So we know that he originally got that far at least. Perhaps he went all the way back to Kings Landing and he would have recognized landmarks from his previous trip all the way home... however, due to his actions in the present, we get no more confirmation of that.

It's curious, however, that the chapter is arranged in such a way. Jaime is essentially taking two trips, one in the past and one in the present. Because of his actions in the present, our knowledge of his journey in the past ends. In the present he turns back and rushes to Harrenhal to do something brave and stupid... But what if his actions in the present is a reflection of his actions in the past? That intriguing notion is why I can't completely dismiss your theory.

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1) can Bloodraven joust?

2) why does KotLT change his voice?

3) why does KotLT keep his face covered?

The disguise made sense before he jousted as he was afraid of bringing himself shame if he lost, but as he won, this reason no longer applies.

Even being a Bastard he had a rich kid upbright, was hand of the King and LC. I guess he can hold a stick and ride a horse just fine. Looser Howland becoming awesome after 1 night might be suspicious. The booming voice might just be the result of BR talking throught Howland.

What we know that can point to BR/Old Gods is that the story start Howland traveling to the Isle of Face instead of just skipping the part and start at the tourney. Then it is mentionned Howland made a prayer to the olds god before the KotLT appear.Then we have the Shield: "A white weirwood" doesnt that says BR even a little bit to you?

Albinos + Weirwood + His Mother's sigil(Raven on Blood + A white Weirwood). The KotLT disappeared into a tree (his shield was found in a tree). + Possible important discussion with Rhaegar in the wood.

This is not important if he warged Howland specifically but,imo, BR is surely involved one way or another. Be it by warging Howland,Lyanna, random man #1232, being some clay monster, or 30 ravens inside an armor or anything.

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