"Osuna's bullring: Why Game of Thrones shouldn't film there"

[Seneti]

Oh god, not this again.

1) Not everything that happens in a bull fighting arena ends with an excruciating death of the bull.

2) What better place is there to show a scene that condemns the brutality of coliseum type fightings then an actual coliseum or coliseum-like building?

3) What Lady Blizzardborn said:

And please, for the love of R'hllor do not dignify PETA by making them part of the discussion. PETA is an American group and has no say in Spain. I'm still angry about their killing dogs and cats they supposedly "rescued" from shelters, and sabotaging dairy farmers' bulk tanks (making the milk undrinkable, and the farmers lose money).

If you do want to protest against animal-cruelty-grade bullfighting, then protest against actual animal-cruelty-grade bullfighting instead of putting everything under one umbrella. You know... kill the masters that ordered the death of those 160-something children, not the masters in general.

[kn1tt3r]

The question is not whether we are pro or contra bull fighting, the question is should HBO support it by using that location for their filming. Because it WILL draw attention and ultimately increase the numbers of paying visitors.

Maybe there isn't a definitive answer to that, but if I were HBO, I wouldn't have done it. I mean, a series like Spartacus convincingly managed (mostly CG I think) arena fighting with a lower budget, and even if HBO wanted to use real loacation, there are certainly "unproblematic" alternatives. I just wouldn't have taken the risk of having to struggle with animal protection advocates and activists. It's just unnecessary.

[Johnny Snow]

So has female genital mutilation, I suppose we should allow that to happen. It's cultural, afteral

So what as FGM got to do with bull fighting?

Typical liberal lefty response, comparing humans to animals !!

[Linda]

I'd rather see them filming in an arena where humans were being killed for sport or whatever.

And anyone who argues that this is all fine and dandy deserves to feel some of what those bulls go through.

[Ran]

That doesn't make any sense. If you use the location of one thing to represent something completely different, you do not support this thing at all. You might just as well say that the movie Valkyrie would be propagating fascism because it was shot at the Bendlerblock and Wolfsschanze, i.e. on locations of crucial importance for Hitler's regime.

Hitler and his regime are long dead. Bullfighting is very much alive. You can't "support Hitler" by filming in historical sites. No money goes to the "Nazi Restoration Association" for filming at the Eagle's Nest, Bendlerblock, Auschwitz, or any other number of sites of historical interest. The Confederacy will not rise again because of someone filming reenactors at Bull Run.

You can, however, support bullfighting as a going concern by making a bullring a tourist attraction for people who would never have otherwise considered going to it just because of the association with the show.

Bullrings are used for corridas, yeah.

Nothing more need be said. It's nice that they are used for other things. But an animal's blood is spilled on their sands for the entertainment of a crowd, and that is the reason they came to exist. They're not called plazas de flamenco, they're called plazas de toros. If Osuna ended its bullfights, I suspect no one would have a real problem with the production using it. World Animal Protection's statement provides their view that a bullring no longer used for bullfighting would be acceptable.

And a culture of thousand of years: bullrings can be seen in France, Portugal, Greece and a lot of Americans countries.

As others have said, something being a tradition does not mean it's not a tradition best left to the dustbins of history. There used to he slave markets throughout the Mediterranean, after all.

And if you hate bullrings because the animal suffers, I hope you will never eat any kind of meat in your whole life. Every chicken, cow, pork or whatever animal you have eaten had a worse, crueler and saddest life than a Spanish bull.

Comparing one possible injustice to another doesn't really say anything but that they are both injustices.

That said, there is a difference: bulls are deliberately tortured, abused, and killed for the entertainment of a crowd, whereas farm-bred livestock meant for food are no deliberately tortured, abused, and killed for entertainment; and in well-regulated places and countries with good standards, they are not abused at all. They may have a lower quality of life overall than a fighting bull, but that doesn't somehow make bloodsport as entertainment right.

Sers,

I have heard that these bulls are trained their entire lives to fight in the bullring against matadors.

There's no training. In fact, it's deliberately avoided, because a bull that has been given too many passes with a cape will actually learn from it and go for the person wielding it (most times when a matador is gored, and it's not because they stumble or otherwise make an error, it's because a bull has too quickly figured out where the real target is).

Basically, much of bullfighting revolves around making the matador as safe as possible. Untrained bulls, picadors, blood letting, damaging the neck muscles, it's all so that the matador can make his passes with as much style as possible while being as free of danger as possible. It's not remotely as dangerous as the anecdote above suggests -- those injuries are rare. So rare that for the many millions of bulls killed in bullrings over the last three centuries, something like 500 matadors have died.

[breakfastfestival]

I'd rather see them filming in an arena where humans were being killed for sport or whatever.

And anyone who argues that this is all fine and dandy deserves to feel some of what those bulls go through.

What a spectacularly ignorant thing to say. 'Someone disagrees with my viewpoint therefore deserves to go through the pain they are implicitly condoning'. I don't even disagree with your standpoint but you have lost any credibility in the argument with that statement.

[PatrickStormborn]

If they wanted to film in an authentic location, they could have used one of the closed bullrings.

Obviously, the choice was monetary based. I imagine the production team were offered some kind of financial incentive to film there because of the impact that filming there will have on tourism. That is obviously very inethical, and incredibly ironic considering the thematic purpose of Daznak's Pit: it's the final straw for Dany, who struggles to live with all the blood she has on her hands, to sit and watch people die for sport.

Sers,

I have heard that these bulls are trained their entire lives to fight in the bullring against matadors. If they can't, they'll spend the rest of their lives pining away for their chance at fighting in the bullring. Do we really want to take that away from them? Do we really want to take their sense of purpose away?

Lol this literally sounds like how Hizdahr tries to sell Daznak's Pit to Daenerys.

[Ingelheim]

Looks fellas...this debate is hundreds of years old. We are not going to get a solution here.

I'm Spanish, and, as I said, I can see the Bullring of La Plaza de Toros from my own house. 50,000 people can be in there.

Now, all of this said, if I had to choose between no more bullfighting ever and keep wit the tradition, I'd choose no more bullfighting. I find it cruel.

But that's not the best approach.

You can still have bullfights without killing the bull. You keep the dancing around the animal, the main reason fro bullfighting, and you keep out the killing and torture.

[Ingelheim]

That said, there is a difference: bulls are deliberately tortured, abused, and killed for the entertainment of a crowd, whereas farm-bred livestock meant for food are no deliberately tortured, abused, and killed for entertainment; and in well-regulated places and countries with good standards, they are not abused at all. They may have a lower quality of life overall than a fighting bull, but that doesn't somehow make bloodsport as entertainment right.

Come on now Ran...have you ever seen how Burguer King, McDonalds or KFC get their meat? Have you ever seen how they treat animals? It's disgusting.

[Ran]

One injustice does not excuse another injustice. But that said, I reside in Sweden, which has an extremely high standard for animal welfare, even compared to the EU norm, much less the US standards. There can always be improvement, of course.

Lets put the irrelevancies aside, however: Game of Thrones is not filming in a slaughterhouse. It is not going to put a McDonald's on the Game of Thrones tourist maps. It's filming in a bullring in which bulls are annually abused and killed for entertainment purposes.

[Ingelheim]

One injustice does not excuse another injustice. But that said, I reside in Sweden, which has an extremely high standard for animal welfare, even compared to the EU norm, much less the US standards. There can always be improvement, of course.

Lets put the irrelevancies aside, however: Game of Thrones is not filming in a slaughterhouse. It is not going to put a McDonald's on the Game of Thrones tourist maps. It's filming in a bullring in which bulls are annually abused and killed for entertainment purposes.

One injustice does not excuse another, totatlly agree, but hating bullfighting and then eating in a Burguer King...well, there's hypocrisy in that. Both are extremly wrong, if you ask me. As I said, I'm against the actual bullfighting.

But, to the point... in your opinion, GOT shouldn't film there?

[Turinqui-Calima]

One injustice does not excuse another, totatlly agree, but hating bullfighting and then eating in a Burguer King...well, there's hypocrisy in that. Both are extremly wrong, if you ask me. As I said, I'm against the actual bullfighting.

Not necessarily. There are differences between the drawn-out killing of a bull for entertainment purposes and the supposedly quick death of a cow that is being slaughtered for meat, i.e. both the intentions and the methods are different. I am not saying there isn't a huge problem with the meat industry, but the point is that they are not directly comparable. It is for instance also completely possible to be against torturing humans for information while being for the death penalty (although for the record I am not).

[Ingelheim]

Not necessarily. There are differences between the drawn-out killing of a bull for entertainment purposes and the supposedly quick death of a cow that is being slaughtered for meat, i.e. both the intentions and the methods are different. I am not saying there isn't a huge problem with the meat industry, but the point is that they are not directly comparable. It is for instance also completely possible to be against torturing humans for information while being for the death penalty (although for the record I am not).

As you said, supposedly quick death. They are actually not. Also, it's not only their deaths. It's how those poor animals are kept in such extremly low conditions.

And yes, it's

completely possible to be against torturing humans for information while being for the death penalty

But, that's, at least for me, hypocrisy as well.

The intentions of bullfighting are completely different than that, of course. I agree with 95% of the arguments used against bullfighting. But quite a few of them are not really good.

But as I said before, my solution is one that wouldn't satisfy neither of them: keep on with the bullfighting, but without killing and torturing the bull. You still have the beauty of the dancing around that extremly noble and beautiful animal, and you leave out the torture they suffer.

[Linda]

What a spectacularly ignorant thing to say. 'Someone disagrees with my viewpoint therefore deserves to go through the pain they are implicitly condoning'. I don't even disagree with your standpoint but you have lost any credibility in the argument with that statement.

If someone has no regard for animal suffering, they deserve to suffer.

[Ran]

I am fine with animal performances that do not entail intentional physical or psychological harm to the animals, personally. Alas, that can't be said for all the events in Osuna.

[Turinqui-Calima]

As you said, supposedly quick death. They are actually not. Also, it's not only their deaths. It's how those poor animals are kept in such extremly low conditions.

I absolutely agree, even in Sweden where animal welfare laws are quite strict there are a lot of problems with the treatment of farm animals. My point is just that what Ran had for lunch shouldn't impact the discussion about bull rings because there are moral differences. Bringing up the problems with the meat industry is just distracting from the actual arguments that Ran are making.

The intentions of bullfighting are completely different than that, of course. I agree with 95% of the arguments used against bullfighting. But quite a few of them are not really good.

But as I said before, my solution is one that wouldn't satisfy neither of them: keep on with the bullfighting, but without killing and torturing the bull. You still have the beauty of the dancing around that extremly noble and beautiful animal, and you leave the torture they suffer.

That would be a great. Unfortunately the one used for the filming is still used for the torturing and killing of bulls and I think it' quite appalling to support it. Especially when there are other bull rings that are no longer in use that would have done just as fine.

[Ingelheim]

There is a problem with the bullrings no longer in use. They are ususally in bad conditions. Of course, from a moral point of view, it'd be a million times better to film there. But they would actually have to spend more money. Which, at the end, is something GOT is not going to do.

[Ran]

Bullfighting is cruel and barbaric.

Yes.

But at the same time you have to ask yourself, do we ignore the art and architecture of the building?

One doesn't need to ignore it to not support it. Go Google some pictures of it if you'd like to admire it. Just please don't film there when you're a multi-million dollar production with tens of millions of fans around the world, some portion of which would love nothing better than to tour sites where their favorite show filmed.

I suppose we should also ignore the magnificance Colloseum of Rome because it was a gladiatorial arena?

They no longer happen. If there were gladiatorial combats happening in the Coliseum today, you can be damned sure there'd be outrage at an American production filming there.

And then you go on with a few other straw men, where people have already addressed the issue. Bring something new to the table, please, rather than making people repeat themselves.

[Ingelheim]

Yes.

One doesn't need to ignore it to not support it. Go Google some pictures of it if you'd like to admire it. Just please don't film there when you're a multi-million dollar production with tens of millions of fans around the world, some portion of which would love nothing better than to tour sites where their favorite show filmed.

They no longer happen. If there were gladiatorial combats happening in the Coliseum today, you can be damned sure there'd be outrage at an American production filming there.

And then you go on with a few other straw men, where people have already addressed the issue. Bring something new to the table, please, rather than making people repeat themselves.

But those fans are free to go there or not. If they choose to go there, they must know where they are going. And if those fans are against bullfighting, they won't visit Osuna. Just like that.

It's not like people don't know that the arena is a bullring.

[Ran]

None of the producers of the TV show are Spaniards. They are all Americans. They cannot claim Spanish cultural heritage to explain their reasoning for using a site that hosts the public abuse and killing of an animal for sport.