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willofDorne

High Sparrow = Howland Reed 4.0

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Because logic, really.

Look.... I'm on the whole this is a stupid theory side. But holy hell, how can you call assuming the Crannogman are backwards ass hillbillies (parpahrasing) as "logic." They live a different life. I sure as hell wouldn't call it backwards, like I might the Ironborn, the boltons, the Dothraki, or the slavers. (and even then I would only call those backwards because of modern standards of morals)

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Look.... I'm on the whole this is a stupid theory side. But holy hell, how can you call assuming the Crannogman are backwards ass hillbillies (parpahrasing) as "logic." They live a different life. I sure as hell wouldn't call it backwards, like I might the Ironborn, the boltons, the Dothraki, or the slavers. (and even then I would only call those backwards because of modern standards of morals)

Indeed. One thing is to try to debunk a crackpot theory - this happens all the time around these boards... But to go hell-bent throwing ad hominem arguments against characters is to scale this to a whole new level. :shocked:

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Look.... I'm on the whole this is a stupid theory side. But holy hell, how can you call assuming the Crannogman are backwards ass hillbillies (parpahrasing) as "logic." They live a different life. I sure as hell wouldn't call it backwards, like I might the Ironborn, the boltons, the Dothraki, or the slavers. (and even then I would only call those backwards because of modern standards of morals)

Well just from a devil's advocate perspective, let's take a look at what we definitely know about them.

1) They use bronze weapons with leather shields. That seems to imply they can't or don't work iron and steel

2) There are no maesters in the Neck. No ravens come in or out with messages

3) There are no knights or masters-at-arms

4) They are reclusive and rarely leave the Neck

5) They subsist off of fishing and frogging. Little to no agriculture in swamps

6) They are believers in greenseers and COTF

7) pretty poor

Some mitigating factors:

1) The only crannogmen we know seem well educated

2) Greenseers and COTF *do* exist

3) They can build homes and castles on floating man-made islands

I don't know if I'd call them backwards, but they are definitely voluntary recluses who seem to shun communication with the outside world, as a society, and either can't or don't use modern technology. Using Jojen and Meera as examples as crannogmen isn't exactly honest either. They are the heirs to the overlord of the Neck, and Howland is one of the few crannogmen we know who has left the Neck (though I think the only other two are Jojen and Meera).

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I don't agree completely, because all we need for this to be an indication of truth is a chance. Even if it were a 5% chance of truth, it's still more like than random. As we have it, it does not appear to be a random member of a house in the 9 kingdoms, but a 50% chance of being northern. I can't do the math off the top of my head, but that amounts to a better than 50% chance easily, without even considering the campaign guide or the fact that ASOIAF wiki is pretty legit for canon sources. It's more reliable than say, an appendix, which can be written to prevent spoilers. Pretty decent. You may consider that lame, but you are looking for proof, and not for indications of truth. You will find no proof here. So though you may consider it "lame" that you didn't get the exact answer you wanted, it is nevertheless more information than you could possible need.

Looking for evidence, not proof.

Give the caveat that Wells could be Dornish in the theory, don't say, "Wells is Northern," as it is misleading and, frankly, not true. It could be true.

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Looking for evidence, not proof.

Give the caveat that Wells could be Dornish in the theory, don't say, "Wells is Northern," as it is misleading and, frankly, not true. It could be true.

That's not what it says on the Ice and Fire wiki.

The campaign guide is a very recent publication (2011). I ordered it, and I'll read it and find out exactly what it says. I'll also make the annotation that it is a semi-canon source, and not full canon.

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That's not what it says on the Ice and Fire wiki.

The campaign guide is a very recent publication (2011). I ordered it, and I'll read it and find out exactly what it says. I'll also make the annotation that it is a semi-canon source, and not full canon.

For reference, here is what it says:

http://imgur.com/j1E0dfN

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Thank you! I already ordered the book yesterday though when this came up. :D

Yeah the pdf is kind of a PITA as you cannot copy the text, so I have to revert to screenshots.

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There were already vagabonds and dispossessed in the countryside and vagrants making their way to King's Landing following the various battles and their violent aftermaths. I suspect he could have been informed of this and set out with a number of crannogmen and Northmen to King's Landing under the disguise of an itinerant septon and followers as a way of blending in, in order to infiltrate King's Landing.

...and do what?

What may have started out as an infiltration mission may have developed by pure opportunity into an overt power grab for high office.

...for what purpose?

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...and do what?

...for what purpose?

To gain revenge on the Lannisters. Start a peasant's movement within the Faith to oppose the Iron Throne, specifically the Lannisters. Avenging Ned Stark, his liege lord and true friend. Removing Tommen Lannister, a false king, from the throne. To return the Faith to a common people's religion, for the good of the people. To subtly introduce the old gods into the Faith and meld the two. To rally and gain control of a large, armed group of people, for the purpose (eventually) of fighting the Others. To restore the pact between the CotF and men to eventually ward off the Long Night. And yes, to punish Cersei Lannister for imprisoning, torturing, and falsely accusing his liege lord of treason.

All these motives were proposed within the first two threads, and I know you reject all of them. But you asked, so here's your opportunity to "disprove" all of them again. And then we'll tell you why we reject your arguments, and a back and forth will ensue by which time we'll be in thread #5, at least. Why don't we just agree to disagree, and move on?

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All these motives were proposed within the first two threads, and I know you reject all of them.

It's not so much that I reject them, it's that aside from returning the Faith to a common people's religion for the good of the people, he hasn't actually done any of the other things you mentioned. He has not gained revenge against "the Lannisters" as a whole or even Cersei for falsely imprisoning, torturing, and accusing Ned Stark for treason, because Cersei isn't actually on trial for that. She's on trial for a bunch of other stuff, like incest, regicide, deicie, etc, but not for her crimes against Ned. His peasant's movement is not opposed to the Iron Throne or dedicated to removing Tommen, but actually went to KL to seek Tommen's protection, and the High Sparrow presumably blessed Tommen as part of his deal with Cersei. He did not introduce the Old Gods to the Faith, let alone meld the two, subtly or otherwise, and in fact shows a great hostility towards other religions. Neither he nor his followers have shown any interest in the Others, CotF, or Long Night, but rather care much more about punishing corrupt septons and royalty for religious crimes. The "evidence" presented in favor of these other motivations consists of vague, arbitary, and entirely subjective, self serving "hints" and "clues" but there's no reason why anyone ought to regard these as more definitive than the actual actions of the High Sparrow and his followers, which have nothing to do with any of this stuff. If the High Sparrow cares about punishing Cersei for her crimes against the Starks, or about the Others, or religious pluralism, or whatever, he should be doing something related to that. Instead he's ignoring it completely.

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You know, I bet there are people who read Ned's chapter, GOT Eddard XV, where he recollects the tourney at Harrenhal and would say, "Howland Reed wasn't there!" Or the tourney at Harrenhal is over, there's not going to be anymore chapters about that!



Yet, in Storm of Swords, CH 24, we get a complete recounting of the tourney at Harrenhal, the best recounting yet, and it not only includes Howland Reed as a major character, but one of the key contributors of the plot.



My point here is that Howland Reed is a shadowy, mysterious character. Just as we do not know the full motives of Lady Dustin, we don't know the machinations of Howland Reed's plans.


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It's not so much that I reject them, it's that aside from returning the Faith to a common people's religion for the good of the people, he hasn't actually done any of the other things you mentioned. He has not gained revenge against "the Lannisters" as a whole or even Cersei for falsely imprisoning, torturing, and accusing Ned Stark for treason, because Cersei isn't actually on trial for that. She's on trial for a bunch of other stuff, like incest, regicide, deicie, etc, but not for her crimes against Ned. His peasant's movement is not opposed to the Iron Throne or dedicated to removing Tommen, but actually went to KL to seek Tommen's protection, and the High Sparrow presumably blessed Tommen as part of his deal with Cersei. He did not introduce the Old Gods to the Faith, let alone meld the two, subtly or otherwise, and in fact shows a great hostility towards other religions. Neither he nor his followers have shown any interest in the Others, CotF, or Long Night, but rather care much more about punishing corrupt septons and royalty for religious crimes. The "evidence" presented in favor of these other motivations consists of vague, arbitary, and entirely subjective, self serving "hints" and "clues" but there's no reason why anyone ought to regard these as more definitive than the actual actions of the High Sparrow and his followers, which have nothing to do with any of this stuff. If the High Sparrow cares about punishing Cersei for her crimes against the Starks, or about the Others, or religious pluralism, or whatever, he should be doing something related to that. Instead he's ignoring it completely.

He has gained a measure of revenge against Cersei. He (assuming, for argument's sake, HS=HR) can't accuse her of the crimes against Ned because he can't establish those; not until he can "prove" her children are the fruit of incest. Cersei is on trial for what he thinks he can prove, and if she loses (certainly not a given) many more (smallfolk as well as lords) will believe the rumors of her children's parentage, helping to reestablish Ned's reputation. But I don't think he would particularly care why she is convicted, as long as she is. He knows what she is guilty of.

He used the self-interest of the peasants to rally them. Not in a cynical way, I think he firmly believes that the IT has treated the smallfolk brutally, and that The Faith reformed will be a good vehicle to address those wrongs. By laying them (the grievances) at Cersei's feet, he manipulates her into letting him arm his followers. My argument for the melding of the two religions is mainly the crudely carved faces in his private audience chamber, faces of The Seven that bear striking (to me) resemblance to crudely carved faces in weirwood trees. Also the attempt to reform the Faith into a religion more accessible to the commonfolk, which more resembles that of the Old Gods, rather than the version of the Faith where the High Septons and church elders are so closely aligned with nobility. He did show hostility to R'Hollor in a conversation with Cersei, and I do believe the Red God worship is antithetical to what he wants to do, and what he actually believes. The Fot7 has enough common support and similarity ("The old gods and new") for him to use and actually embrace it.

Using his followers to battle the Others is purely speculative, I agree. It has nothing to do with what his followers know or believe about the Others, the Long Night, etc, although I'm sure most of them have heard of all of this. It's that they (his followers) would tend to dismiss all of that as superstitious hokum, as most characters south of the Neck do. But he would know better, from his time on the Isle of the Faces, and from Jojen's greendreams which prompted him (HR) to send his kids to find Bran, and the 3 eyed crow. So he realizes there is an imminent threat to humanity that no one believes in, and a realm that is fractured and fragmented by war. From a meta-standpoint, we know (at least I believe, do you?) that there will be some kind of terrible battle with the Others in the next three, er, two concluding books of the series. So he is attempting to build some cohesion among factions that takes all people into account, not just the ruling lords and their wars for land and power.

As I've stated before, you may be right, he (the HS) may be an entirely new character who is like Martin Luther, rebelling against the power and corruption of the church. I wouldn't have a problem with that except that I don't see how it advances the meta-story of the War for the Dawn, and there do seem (to me) to be a lot of "hints" and "clues" that point to the theory.

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One possible reason HR=HS in story would be that he could annul Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.



During the conversation between Lord Tywin and Tyrion after the Lannister Stark marriage..Tyrion says that the High Septon or a High Council can annul a marriage. Whomever this High Septon is..he keeps saying that he is there to "seek the truth" he says this more than once. So what truth is this mysterious character interested in.



The truth behind Ned's beheading.


The truth behind Jon Aryb's death and King Robert's death.


The truth behind Stannis's assertion that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are bastards and born from incest.


The truth perhaps regarding Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion.


The truth regarding the prophets called sparrows that Cersei had beaten and placed in dungeons just before the Blackwater Bay battle. Tyrion had ignored them but Cersei had them rounded up and tortured.


The truth about who ordered Kettleblack to murder the last High Septon.


The truth about the Lannnister involvement in the Red Wedding.


Perhaps even the truth about the Lannister plot to send men to assasinate the LC of the Night's Watch.



I believe Howland Reed is one of the most important magical figures in the story. BloodRaven beyond the Wall with Bran can and are communicating with Howland Reed below the Wall. All information about what has gone on and what is going on can be transmitted to Howland Reed via the trees.



I actually think if HR is the HS he would come out in support of Aegon to replace Cersei. Depending on how the story unfolds he might even anull the marriage between Tommen and Margaery.



I am sure whomever the HS is he was part of the network of septons working with Beric Dondarion against the Lannisters and the Karstarks and Boltons who were ravishing the Riverlands.



I personally suspect the BWB are being used by BR as well. I do not ignore the fact that George is showing us the readers that in the Riverlands, both septons and old gods are in common cause and helping each other deal with the atrocities that the Freys, Boltons, and especially the Lannister henchmen have committed upon the people.



Ned Stark thought it would be perfectly fine for his son Bran to become the High Septon.


We saw numerous people with Meribald coming out of marshes who were believers in the Faith.


Are we so sure that the crannogmen small folk are ONLY COTF? I think it might be very possible that they are both or that they exist side by side in acceptance and peace.

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One possible reason HR=HS in story would be that he could annul Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.

During the conversation between Lord Tywin and Tyrion after the Lannister Stark marriage..Tyrion says that the High Septon or a High Council can annul a marriage. Whomever this High Septon is..he keeps saying that he is there to "seek the truth" he says this more than once. So what truth is this mysterious character interested in.

The truth behind Ned's beheading.

The truth behind Jon Aryb's death and King Robert's death.

The truth behind Stannis's assertion that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are bastards and born from incest.

The truth perhaps regarding Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion.

The truth regarding the prophets called sparrows that Cersei had beaten and placed in dungeons just before the Blackwater Bay battle. Tyrion had ignored them but Cersei had them rounded up and tortured.

The truth about who ordered Kettleblack to murder the last High Septon.

The truth about the Lannnister involvement in the Red Wedding.

Perhaps even the truth about the Lannister plot to send men to assasinate the LC of the Night's Watch.

I believe Howland Reed is one of the most important magical figures in the story. BloodRaven beyond the Wall with Bran can and are communicating with Howland Reed below the Wall. All information about what has gone on and what is going on can be transmitted to Howland Reed via the trees.

I actually think if HR is the HS he would come out in support of Aegon to replace Cersei. Depending on how the story unfolds he might even anull the marriage between Tommen and Margaery.

I am sure whomever the HS is he was part of the network of septons working with Beric Dondarion against the Lannisters and the Karstarks and Boltons who were ravishing the Riverlands.

I personally suspect the BWB are being used by BR as well. I do not ignore the fact that George is showing us the readers that in the Riverlands, both septons and old gods are in common cause and helping each other deal with the atrocities that the Freys, Boltons, and especially the Lannister henchmen have committed upon the people.

Ned Stark thought it would be perfectly fine for his son Bran to become the High Septon.

We saw numerous people with Meribald coming out of marshes who were believers in the Faith.

Are we so sure that the crannogmen small folk are ONLY COTF? I think it might be very possible that they are both or that they exist side by side in acceptance and peace.

A PERFECT example of pure speculation being used to support HR being the HS, with barely a smidgen of textual support.

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The above was my speculation regarding the many ways the story could go in the future. Since someone felt I had used pure speculation..below are some textual supports...Sigh.



I also said HR could be the HS not that I was sure he was



There are hints in the text but the hints could just be a random septon who was aligned with the BWB in the Riverlands. There is plenty of textual support in Arya's chapters about how many septs and septons are helping support Beric Dondarion. There is also textual support that the Faith and the red priest Thoros are helping each other.



So to prevent more accusations of pure speculation with just a smidgeon of textual support. SEE below.



Textual proofs.



Ned Stark to Arya regarding Bran’s possible future and showing proof that Ned Stark would not have any problems with Bran becoming a High Septon



“He was going to be a knight,” Arya was saying now. “A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?”


“No,” Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. “Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king’s council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother’s Faith and become the High Septon.”





Howland Reed’s magic abilities.



“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”




Obviously “talk to trees” in this sense means more than the average prayers said before a heart tree or it’s not a magical ability.


I think this is a textual hint that HR and BR can and do communicate. While HR does not have greendreams like his son Jorjen..I believe he has an even better magical ability...to talk to the trees and to hear them speaking back.



The treatment of the begging brothers in KL by Cersei



Tyrion


They were passing through Cobbler’s Square, where a sizable crowd had gathered beneath the leather awnings to listen to the rantings of a prophet. A robe of undyed wool belted with a hempen rope marked him for one of the begging brothers. “We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters! Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods!



Cersei to Tyrion


Cersei regarded him suspiciously. “If you are here about those begging brothers, Tyrion, spare me your reproaches. I won’t have them spreading their filthy treasons in the streets. They can preach to each other in the dungeons.” “And count themselves lucky that they have such a gentle queen,” added Lancel. “I would have had their tongues out.”



“One even dared to say that the gods were punishing us because Jaime murdered the rightful king,” Cersei declared. “It will not be borne, Tyrion. I gave you ample opportunity to deal with these lice, but you and your Ser Jacelyn did nothing, so I commanded Vylarr to attend to the matter.”



“And so he did.” Tyrion had been annoyed when the red cloaks had dragged a half dozen of the scabrous prophets down to the dungeons without consulting him, but they were not important enough to battle over.



The entire city no doubt knows that Cersei had her red cloaks arrest begging brothers. Another mark against the Lannisters. Joffrey attacked people begging for food and will attack merchants later in the story and Cerse arrested holy men..yeah the Lannisters are really beloved by the Kingslanding populace.



The Quest for truth. Cersei’s first meeting with the new High Septon.



(Remember that Cersei has already inprisoned begging brothers who spoke out about the rumors regarding King Robert’s death and the possible incest of Cersei and Jaime).


Everyone associated with the Faith from begging brothers to the Most Devout had to be afraid of being arrested for speaking out against the Queen or her family after her response earlier.



She forced herself to smile. “King Tommen will forgive the sparrows too, once they have returned to their homes.”


“Most have lost their homes. Suffering is everywhere . . . and grief, and death. Before coming to King’s Landing, I tended to half a hundred little villages too small to have a septon of their own. I walked from each one to the next, performing marriages, absolving sinners of their sins, naming newborn children. Those villages are no more, Your Grace. Weeds and thorns grow where gardens once flourished, and bones litter the roadsides.”


“War is a dreadful thing. These atrocities are the work of the northmen, and of Lord Stannis and his demon-worshipers.”


Some of my sparrows speak of bands of lions who despoiled them . . . and of the Hound, who was your own sworn man. At Saltpans he slew an aged septon and despoiled a girl of twelve, an innocent child promised to the Faith. He wore his armor as he raped her and her tender flesh was torn and crushed by his iron mail



“These are sad days indeed,” she said, “but I am pleased to find us so much in agreement. If Tommen were here I know he would thank you. Together you and I must find the truth.”


We shall.





Cersei’s Second meeting with the High Septon


Within, Osney Kettleblack hung naked from the ceiling, swinging from a pair of heavy iron chains. He had been whipped. His back and shoulders been laid almost bare, and cuts and welts crisscrossed his legs and arse as well.


The queen could hardly stand to look at him. She turned back to the High Septon. “What have you done?”


We have sought after the truth, most earnestly.”




Hints regarding a Riverland septon being the new High Septon



The BWB tells Arya that at least two septons and a dog are among their supporters and throughout Arya’s storyline in the Riverlands.



Beric Dondarion’s party visits at least three septs and rescues at least one septon and an elder brother at another sept. It is actually the rescue of the eight brown brothers at the sept near Sallydance that could contribute the strongest textual hint about who the new High Septon is. The eldest brown brother has an interesting conversation with Anguy and Lem regarding his feelings of guilt for not telling the bloody mummers where their gold and gems were hidden. Later we know that this new High Sparrow speaks of his own failings.



Much later in the story Brienne will admire a painted door at the inn of the Seven Swords. Upon the door painting are various creatures hidden in the woods and a castle in the distance.



A red fox, two sparrows on a wooden branch and hiding behind them all a wild boar.



The Ghost of High Heart helps the BWB and the woman has no problems at all with Thoros looking into the fire..however she tells him he will see nothing in his flames upon the hill as the old gods are still strong within the weirwood stumps.



The Lady of the Leaves when speaking to the BWB blesses both the red priest and the Faith of the Seven when she hears Beric Dondarion is still alive.




Possible hint to one of the political moves a septon from the Riverlands or HR might do is annul a marriage. Lord Tywin was concerned because Tyrion and Sansa had not consummated the marriage.



Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?”



By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is.”



This could be a subtle clue that Sansa's marriage will need dealt with in the future.




Someone could certainly disagree with me regarding the theories associated with HR however, I have tried to give the textual support for possible theories. I seldom deal with pure speculation.

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By the way, it's not possible to make an "ad hominem" attack against fictional characters. In case anyone hadn't noticed yet none of the people in these books and on the teevee are real. Nice strawman-building though in the efforts to stick up for your fan favourites though. I haven't been dissed that badly by a hysterical reaction on a fan site since I told some nu-Trekkies that Star Trek Into Dumbness was an atrocity against good filmmaking and that JarJar Abrams should have been thrown in prison for what he's done to the Trek legacy. :ack:


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By the way, it's not possible to make an "ad hominem" attack against fictional characters. In case anyone hadn't noticed yet none of the people in these books and on the teevee are real. Nice strawman-building though in the efforts to stick up for your fan favourites though. I haven't been dissed that badly by a hysterical reaction on a fan site since I told some nu-Trekkies that Star Trek Into Dumbness was an atrocity against good filmmaking and that JarJar Abrams should have been thrown in prison for what he's done to the Trek legacy. :ack:

I agree with you, Thanos. A lot of posters here take these hypothetical theories about fictional characters in a fantasy world and make them personal. Hell, most of the theories we discuss haven't even been written yet. Anyway, don't take it too personally, it goes on a lot, but there's also some intelligence and civility that peeps through occasionally. By the way, I thought your post was thoughtful and well written. Cheers! :cheers:

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