Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Jon Fossoway]

I remember Conningto´s words for Rhaegar, flew too high, and fell, yadda yadda. Then he went into exile (underworld?) and took a new identity and apparently a new morning star, Aegon, with him on his way back to surface.

Also, Dayne´s sword of the morning, and on the other hand Selwyn the Evenfall?

Just shooting randoms here.

[Ygritte]

I remember Conningto´s words for Rhaegar, flew too high, and fell, yadda yadda. Then he went into exile (underworld?) and took a new identity and apparently a new morning star, Aegon, with him on his way back to surface.

Rhaegar is kind of the Morningstar, and kind of the Sun itself IMO. He had two moons/wives. The second, he "killed," and if you espouse R+L=J, a dragon came forth.

[Jon Fossoway]

Sorry it doesnt appear to edit.

Selwyn as the Evenstar.

In spanish version of the novels the literal translation of Selwyn´s alias is the Brightar of late afternoon.

[LmL]

Having only skimmed this and not yet read the 1st thread, I must say that I have always been on board with the idea that the 'heroes' of ASoIaF will bring the 'darkness' that comes before the dawn.

I'm also convinced that ASoIaF is based more on pagan mythology than modern Christianity and, as such, a character like Lucifer, or the beast (or beasts if it's Dany/Jon and Bran - the 3 heads of Bloodraven's dragon) would not be a straight up 'evil' entity that a saviour must banish/defeat and rather a necessary evil, or dual natured entity, that exists for balance and a greater good.

Yes, I am agreeing with this. Often times, the hero is "the guy who did what had to be done" - take Jaime at KL when he killed Aerys. He broke his vow, yes, but he also saved thousands of lives. The Nights King may have been this way, if his sacrificing of his self and seed was keeping a pact somehow.

[LmL]

LMLB: This is some excellent work and i especially like the above part because i think ultimately this is where the story comes full circle.Below is the link to a theory i've had for about two years and one of the themes that i saw reoccuring in this story is the myth of the Oak(Summer) and Holly(Winter) Kings two dieties that have been involved in a neccassary struggle that started when time began.Melissandre though she's a bit of a crackpot is right and wrong when she tells Davos

:

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94335-the-cold-the-wight-and-the-wight-walker/

Thanks so much and I look forward to checking your threads out later tonight, that Oak and Holly stuff sounds really interesting :)

[LmL]

I compliment the staggering amount of the work you have done. I am keeping an open mind about it as always.

There are things that I liked and agree with:

- the reversal of roles of a good and a bad guy in myths

- danger coming from Asshai, R'hllor and Quaithe

- potential Targaryen ancestry in Amethyst dynasty

ty, ty....

There are things I think you (and all of us) should work on:

- bloodstone is obviously neither black, nor oily. Therefore, your argument there looks stretched and weak. There are more knowledgeable people on this forum than me when it comes to geology, but I'd say some of them have already pointed out to the weak link between the bloodstone and the oily black stone; to be honest, I am not sure why you want to fit it in your theory, but, as I say, I keep an open mind and will wait to see how you plan to fit it further

I have to disagree on this one.

- The green is so dark that it does look more like black with green highlights where the sun hits it. “Oily sheen” implies greenish highlights, just like oil

- I’m not certain at all that it is literally bloodstone. ‘Bloodstone' in Martinverse is a magic rock, which has the symbolic traits of heliotrope - sun drinking, the association with “plasma,” the purple flowers of the ‘valerian’. This gets to the idea that it is fantasy loosely based on geology and astronomy

- I could be wrong - the greasy stone may be something else. I’m open to ideas. :)

- I thought it was also weak when you attempted to reverse the gender roles at some point. I am sure with our thinking caps on, we may find something that fits better

​I’d like to know what exactly you’re referring to, the only time I talked about swapping gender roles was with the Yi Tish description of the sun as female and the moon as male. That was simply an observation.

- generally, I'd advise you to shorten your posts, because thematically speaking, this one touched upon too many things simultaneously. Hence, I am afraid the thread may become less focused. I'd advise more threads with a stronger thematic coherence.

​It’s certainly tricky to figure out where to divide things, as everything in Martinverse overlaps. I do think there was a coherent topic throughout this one though - the Bloodstone E = Azor Ahai - and I included everything that I did because it was all relevant to that idea. I thought it may be a bit controversial, so I wanted to corroborate from multiple angles. That said, I think I will look to shorten and subdivide more after Part 3 comes out (that’s gonna be another monster)

- Maybe I am very stupid, but I could not fit your last long quote into your theory. So, it would help if you could add some explanations

Magic swords referenced in congestion with Lucifer, and a sword that may be Lightbringer? I found that to be a nice confirmation that George was in fact thinking of Lucifer and his symbolism re: Lightbringer. The ‘Just Maid’ - a.k.a. Virgo, who holds the scales of Libra - is a sword given to Ser Galladon from the Maiden herself. The Maiden “lost her heart” to Ser Galladon - that’s Nissa Nissa getting stabbed we are talking about. The fact that Galladon only used the magic sword 3 times is probably important, as I think there were three major moon rock impacts.

- It is obvious that GRRM has been driving his inspiration from "earthy" mythology and religion. It is good to point this out, but I wouldn't count on GRRM sticking to it too firmly.

You’re right, it’s a big jumble. He’s borrowing symbols and ideas but reshaping them to suit his story.

Now, some constructive input. This is my first reading of a very long OP, so I probably missed something and may get back to you if I did.

- you made a link between Lucifer and Venus that heralds dawn. That is a fine reading, but let me remind you that Venus and its famous transit symbolizes a "divine or sacred feminine".

Of course you are correct. There are many fables and characters associated with the moon, the planets, etc. Lucifer’s association with the Morningstar does not negate any of the divine feminine associations of venus. I actually think it gives an idea about what kind of ‘dude’ Lucifer is thought to be. I absolutely view him as encouraging of the divine feminine - his hallmarks are, besides enlightenment, art, music, love, and beauty. He’s the opposite of a patriarchal deity. I think of Eve eating the apple first - i think that is a clue that woman may have been the first to eat of the food of the gods and make the leap in consciousness, originally (I’m a believer in Terrance McKenna’s ‘Stoned Ape’ theory to explain the ‘Great Leap Forward’). I’d also really love to see an in-depth exploration of the feminine aspects of Venus to compliment this essay.

You can read further about this astronomical phenomenon here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus

However, I urge you to have a look at the first photo offered in this link and see how that fits into your theory in which, if I understood it correctly, Venus is replaced by a comet. I'd say the photo is as close to the birth of dragons as you can get from NASA. :-)

So, bearing in mind the symbolism of the "divine feminine", I'd translate it to two Andal goddesses - the Mother and the Maid. Hence, Daenerys will represent the former while Brienne represents the latter.

You mentioned that Lucifer brought the enlightenment However, Brienne (like Duncan the Tall whose shield mysteriously ended up on the isle of Tarth) thinks of herself as stupid. She is sexually innocent. Her love and values are knightly. And she is humble. Hence, she fits the following verse:

Quote

"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." Mathew 5:5

So, she does not need an enlightenment through obtaining knowledge. Her knightly values (lost to most knights) are her enlightenment

On the other hand, Daenerys (the Mother) is no stranger to lust, revenge and everything derived from the word blood

- blood magic gave her dragons

- fire and blood is her sigil

- with her "first blood" came her marriage to Drogo

- she leaves a bloody trace behind her etc.

She seeks knowledge of her ancestral powers and history.

Both Daenerys and Brienne are coming from two islands that lie east from Westeros - Dragonstone and Tarth - like two aspects of "the morning star"

I like all of this analysis. I definitely think George is playing on Aphrodite legend by calling her "Brienne the Beauty.” It seems like an ironic label, but it isn’t. On Radio Westeros’ last podcast, they looked at Jaime and Cersei, but got into Brienne a bit. They make many great points, but the one that leaps to mind is that when Maggie the Frog tells Cersei someone “younger and more beautiful” than her will cast her down and take her place or whatever, Maggie’s idea of beauty may not be what Cersei’s is. George makes Maggy as ugly as possible to emphasize this. They are interpreting “more beautiful” to refer to Brienne’s inner beauty, and I agree.

I think you are misinterpreting the concept of ‘enlightenment’ as pertains to Lucifer. It’s not a ‘head-knowledge’ enlightenment - true enlightenment only comes through the heart. George talks about “light and love”returning to the world after the LN, and that’s the key phrase. I won’t quote it fully buy one of my favorite Bible verses is the one about faith without love being worthless - if someone has all knowledge and the faith to move mountains, but has not love, he is like a “clanging gong” or something like that. That’s what I am talking about. I agree that Brienne doesn’t “need” enlightenment especially - she’s one of the least messed up people in this story. She has shown over and over that her heart is essentially gold. She’s always trying to do the right thing, and she has many qualities to look up to. If you were going to be good friends with one person from the series - you’d do well with Brienne. She’s the friend that will help you move when they aren’t feeling well, who will never betray you. So I think we may be on the same page in regards to Brienne. I think she is in fact a main character who doesn’t get enough respect or attention.

And I think she has Lightbringer.

In that sense, Jaime, who comes from the far west of Westeros and Euron, who comes from the utmost western archipelago of Westeros and wants to marry Daenerys, should be regarded as their "divine or sacred male" counterpoints.

If we stick to Venus as "the morning star", it is obvious that Mars would be its celestial and mythological husband. Both Jaime and Euron fit the description of a God of War.

That's it from me for now. Over and out (while on a lookout).

Def agree that Jaime fits the God of War perfectly, hadn’t thought about Euron in that regards.

Cheers and thanks for the comments and for reading!

[Mychel_Redfort]

Since this thread is about astronomy behind legends, I would like to display an example from our world involving Venus.

Concerning how planets rotate, there are two oddities in our solar system, two planets that don't rotate like the others. Uranus rotates about an axis that is nearly parallel with its orbital plane, as it was rolling on its side. Venus rotates about its axis in a clockwise direction, unlike the other planets. A possible explanation could be collisions occuring during the formation of the solar system.

Now take one of the version of the birth of Aphrodite (Venus) in the greek mythology. From the wiki :

In the most famous version of her myth, her birth was the consequence of a castration: Cronus (Saturn) severed Uranus' genitals and threw them behind him into the sea. The foam from his genitals gave rise to Aphrodite (hence her name, meaning "foam-arisen"), while the Erinyes (furies), and the Meliae emerged from the drops of his blood. Hesiod states that the genitals "were carried over the sea a long time, and white foam arose from the immortal flesh; with it a girl grew." The girl, Aphrodite, floated ashore on a scallop shell. This iconic representation of Aphrodite as a mature "Venus rising from the sea" (Venus Anadyomene) was made famous in a much-admired painting by Apelles, now lost, but described in the Natural History of Pliny the Elder.

In other words, Saturn collided with Uranus (making it roll on its side) and the part of Uranus that was thrown into space became Venus. Venus rotating about its axis not like the other planets would be because it wasn't formed naturally like the other planets :cool4:

[LmL]

I'm not completely sure about the bloodstone theory either. My first question is that the one object that is claimed to be made out of a fallen star is Dawn. Which is described as being pale as milkglass.

As for the oily stone, I would note that when Theon arrives at Moat Cailin, he describes the giant basalt rocks as

Sweet, great catch. I thought there was a description of the Moat Cailin stones as greasy somewhere, so thanks. If they are basalt, that could mean one of a few things:

1.) any black stone that is vitrified may described as greasy

2.) greasy stone is basalt and not bloodstone

3.) stone becomes greasy looking through some sort of magical process, which may or may not be separate from the explosion of the moon and descent of moon rocks

I do not think Dawn is made from the Bloodstone the Emperor worshipped. No way. Dawn is made from (hypothesis) a piece of the original comet itself which broke apart, likely during the first ‘forging’ or break-up of the comet. I talked about this in my first essay. I’m going to go pretty deep in to the sword compositions in the next part.

I think a sword WAS made form Bloodstone, but it isn’t Dawn. I think there were two swords which were or could be associated with being ‘light bringer,’ both made from fallen meteors. I mean... you can’t have a good fight with just one magic sword. You need two.

[LmL]

Holy.

I am reading but I can´t resist to congratulate you, good Sir, one of the best and most articulate theories I´ve read.

I was worried it would bomb when I released the first one. Didn’t know if it was too long or too out there for folks... So it means a lot to hear you are stoked. :)

[LmL]

I'm impressed with the stuff youre done on lucifer/Venus. There is a lot to read here and i'm not sure if i'm about to agree with all youre conclusions, but you deffinatly found a lot of stuff that got me convinced of it's value.

And i kinda feel lazy now. i have said it before, while i understand that Grrm is no scientist or astronomer and not too many scientific explenations should be sought for astral oddity's, that i believe things might be explained as "astromagical", and youre work further enforces this idea.

The way you connected Venus to Lucifer seems now to be only 1 side of the equasion though. Does he fit in the faith of the 7 too? Afterall, we get the impression that all of the 7 are planets, and now we might very well start to reconsider what they really represent given historical perceptions of it.

I think the important connection is the one between Lucifer / Morningstar and the comet. He swapped the comet for Venus and applied all the Lightbringer / morningstar symbolism to it.

Venus would be the Maiden or the Mother. I do think “the Seven” are the classic 7 celestial wanderers. Mars is certainly the warrior, i would think. I’m going to do an analysis of the Seven at some point, as I think they may relate to the Church of Starry Wisdom and the Great Empire somehow.

“Astromagical” is the right idea. It’s a magic system loosely based on geology, astronomy, etc. Better than just weaving sorcery out of thin air, if you ask me.

[LmL]

I actually think Barristan's just seeing the sunrise, though his thoughts still fit the comet metaphorically.

Compare to this quote from Maester Cressenin ACOK that Durran D found:

" The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky."

[LmL]

I remember Conningto´s words for Rhaegar, flew too high, and fell, yadda yadda. Then he went into exile (underworld?) and took a new identity and apparently a new morning star, Aegon, with him on his way back to surface.

Also, Dayne´s sword of the morning, and on the other hand Selwyn the Evenfall?

Just shooting randoms here.

All connected. Dawn is coming in the next essay (pun intended). The events imagery around Tarth exists mainly because of the role Brienne is going to play, I am thinking. Could be more to it though.

[Sigbjorn]

While I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, the Lord of Tarth is sometimes called the Evenstar. If he dies, Brienne will be the Evenstar, which is either equivalent to, or the opposite side of, Lucifer/Lightbringer. She happens to possess a magical sword made from melting down Ice, then reforged by lions, and might have need of it slay a certain mother...

[LmL]

Since this thread is about astronomy behind legends, I would like to display an example from our world involving Venus.

Concerning how planets rotate, there are two oddities in our solar system, two planets that don't rotate like the others. Uranus rotates about an axis that is nearly parallel with its orbital plane, as it was rolling on its side. Venus rotates about its axis in a clockwise direction, unlike the other planets. A possible explanation could be collisions occuring during the formation of the solar system.

Now take one of the version of the birth of Aphrodite (Venus) in the greek mythology. From the wiki :

In other words, Saturn collided with Uranus (making it roll on its side) and the part of Uranus that was thrown into space became Venus. Venus rotating about its axis not like the other planets would be because it wasn't formed naturally like the other planets :cool4:

Very cool Mychel Redfort. That’s rich symbolism indeed. I can’t help but notice that Aphrodite is doing the standard Morningstar stuff - descending from heaven and rising again (harder and stronger? naw....)

[LmL]

While I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, the Lord of Tarth is sometimes called the Evenstar. If he dies, Brienne will be the Evenstar, which is either equivalent to, or the opposite side of, Lucifer/Lightbringer. She happens to possess a magical sword made from melting down Ice, then reforged by lions, and might have need of it slay a certain mother...

This is very possible, even probable, IMO. Watch out for that sword catching fire!

[LmL]

Rhaegar is kind of the Morningstar, and kind of the Sun itself IMO. He had two moons/wives. The second, he "killed," and if you espouse R+L=J, a dragon came forth.

OOOH that’s a really good one! Home run! I’ve been looking at the Targ stories for astronomy metaphors, but hadn’t spotted this. :)

[LmL]

This is fucking awesome. I can't wait for part 3.

Btw what are you implying with Brienne?

She has a magic sword :)

And thanks a bunch, a whole fucking bunch :)

And that’s the only “Lucifer” reference in the book besides the last Lord of House Dryland that Nymeria sent to the wall way back when.

[Mychel_Redfort]

All connected. Dawn is coming in the next essay (pun intended). The events imagery around Tarth exists mainly because of the role Brienne is going to play, I am thinking. Could be more to it though.

Modesty Lannister's mention of Dunk made me wonder. A forebear of Brienne, with a shooting star on his shield... sounds promising. Do you have a theory about him, LmL ?

[LmL]

Modesty Lannister's mention of Dunk made me wonder. A forebear of Brienne, with a shooting star on his shield... sounds promising. Do you have a theory about him, LmL ?

I know that there is something there, I’ve definitely noticed the shield heraldry connection... I need to re-read D & E now that I have this theory in mind. Mithras quoted a passage from D & E with Bloodraven disguised as Maynard Plum that sounded pretty rich. So no, no theory yet, except that I would expect to find more confirmation / detail of the astronomy of Lightbringer.

Hell, I’m ready to go looking in “The Ice Dragon” for clues, I’m sure George has hidden some there. This is like an easter egg hunt buried within an epic fantasy series. Dang impressive.

[Modesty Lannister]

To add to the notion of Rhaegar = Apollo = Sun (wasn't he evoking Beal the Bard story in Harrenhal? That would fit the definition of devil, or a Greek Pan version of it nicely…) + Lyanna = Nissa Nissa = Moon equals Jon Snow = Dragon. That would make Longclaw = Lightbringer. What I believe is that the Longclaw is actually the Dayne ancestral sword Dawn. It's a very long story why I believe it, but, let's say for starters that Mormonts are pretty poor noble family who were made noble by the Starks (after the LN), so it does not make sense for them to have a Valyrian steel sword. I think there are a lot of "little elfs" on the Wall who are helping Jon prepare for his final task while leaving him unaware of that. "You know nothing, Jon Snow" fits well into that, because he doesn't. The facts that this is being constantly repeated by Ygritte who is the first female character (divine feminine) in Jon's world, that she is the woman who took his virginity, who is "kissed by fire" etc. adds to the whole symbolics.

Also, I did not quote "Blessed are the meek … " for no reason.

I firmly believe there are a couple of pairs who will play different roles in the end game and that Jaime and Brienne are one of them. This above quote imho serves as a foreshadowing of who will inherit the earthly world (governance) after all is said and done.