Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[LmL]

I am proponent of all things magical but for some reason I am not great fan of fish people, I always tended to explain them away with seafaring conquerors/raiders than actual extra race but I is possible too. Iron Islands could be impact site, greater landmass wrecked into islands, as is maybe hinted in Worldbook

The Ironborn may not be from the Iron Islands, also. Their legend of a drowned god may have come with them from wherever they came from. Considering that the Bloodstone Emperor must have been a maritime power, to reach Westerns from Asshai or wherever, the Iroborn could well be his descendants, or descendants of an ally of his, since he most likely brought armies (navies) with him, But yes, there could have been an Iron Island Impact. I actually suspect dormant volcanism - take a look at great wick and old wick. Great Wyck is a crescent, with Old Wyck in the middle, almost like a new seamont rising from the caldera of an old volcano. While I tend to identify the “Sea Dragon” which could drown whole islands in her wroth as a meteor (dragon) that land in the sea or on an island / isthmus, causing tsunamis... but it could be a volcanic island just as easily. That’s a sea dragon as well. The Grey King “slew” the sea dragon and made use of it somehow, as he does with all his enemies’ weapons. I’m trying to think of how you can slay a volcano or meteorite, or use it to your own benefit.

Check out these two essays on aquatic peoples and Ironborn, they’re fantastic:

Crowfood's Daughter -

The Walrus Men & the Origin of the Wildlings

The Curse of the First King

[Equilibrium]

Check out these two essays, they’re fantastic:

Crowfood's Daughter -

The Walrus Men & the Origin of the Wildlings

The Curse of the First King

I know, I have read them, they are both nicely written and The Curse of the First King is something I agree with completely. I believe there were men before FM and that Iron Isles have their own culture, but it can be explain by another human migration say from the west.

I am still not convinced about damn fish people, but it is nice possibility to play with. Sea was always mystery to human, even more so than space because it was closer and more tangible, even if there is nothing to the fish people they would imagine something.

And you should be glad, I bought your theory after like three lines and you see I am not so easily persuaded :D

[LmL]

Look, you put your theory out there to be debated. So, you have to deal with those of us who do not agree on everything you write. I have already said that I think bloodstone is the weakest link in your theory. And I am not the only one pointing this out on this thread. We are discussing with open minds. My mind cannot mix dark green and black. GRRM is a very precise writer. If he says black, it's black. Bloodstone is not black and it does have other colours dotted around. Don't you think the author would have mentioned this? Yet, he mentions only black. Basalt seems to fit the description and it does not go against your comet hits a moon theory at all. It does not fit the symbolism your constructed around it, but it might. We never got into the symbolism of basalt at all.

There are a few possible explanations for no red flecks - I dealt with this idea in my OP. Still open to other ideas, by all means. And disagreement is welcomed, to be sure.

I'll give you just one such explanation from the web.

I think you are confusing bloodstone as a name of a stone in real life and bloodstone as a name for black rocks GRRM is describing. Bloodstone in GRRM world can also mean a magical stone activated by blood (sacrifice)

I proposed this in my OP, more or less:

I believe the reason the bloodstone on Planetos doesn't have any red flecks is because it is no longer natural bloodstone - it's a magically radiated form of obsidian, made from the bloodstone of the moon which perished. I'm not sure if George is literally imaging a moon made from bloodstone rock, as opposed to using the term for is connotations and symbolism - but either way, all the rock of the moon which exploded was liquified, vitrified, or both, and we are supposed to think of it as having the general qualities of bloodstone, or an obsidian form of bloodstone. It's a different kind of frozen fire. And as we saw with the Bloodstone Emperor, it seems to enable various kinds of very dark magic.

and it is black and oily, because its magic is directly opposed to the magic of weirwoods, which are white and weep blood (a red substance anyway). So, imho black stones symbolise black magic while weirwoods symbolise white magic. And the difference is its intent. However, I may not be right at all. Their magic may be quite complementary.

​That’s a great idea and worth looking in to. I see the opposition there with the blood connotations as a common link.

Weirwood trees DO NOT EXIST in our world. Why would black oily stones exist in our world at all? But, if we are searching for a stone from our world that does resemble what GRRM described, basalt fits it better.

As I said before, I am not even sure that all types of black stone mentioned in TWOIAF are one and the same.

I agree, and I acknowledged as much several comments ago. The fused stone and greasy stone are almost certainly a different process, if not material. If the greasy look simply means “vitrification,” then any black stone can be made greasy looking with incredible amounts of heart (like that of a comet striking the ground, or meteorites falling through the atmosphere, or dragon fire)

We all have complex theories and when we put them to test, some things fit and some don't. If several posters point to something and they are not trolling, but giving a constructive input, I'd listen. I'm not saying I am right. I cannot say you are right. Only GRRM knows who is right if anyone. But, the purpose of any debate is to detect weak links and improve them. That way we all win.

Totally agree, if anything I may object to your use of declarative, negative statements like “sorry, that just doesn’t work,” particularly in regards to a subjective matter like interpreting the meaning of “greasy looking.” Still, I welcome your comments. I particularly appreciated the bit your shared about basalt:

Basalt is a stone of strength and courage, it allows one the opportunity for stability throughout changes in their life. If you are going through a lot of shifts in your life then basalt would be a helpful stone for you. Basalt helps to diminish the negative aspects of one’s character and allow us one to see where modification of your character can be helpful.

Since basalt was once molten lava, it has the power of fire within. One drawn to basalt may need some fire her energy into their life.

That’s pretty good stuff. There are a couple clues that the exploded moon contained two layers of rock - the stone skin, and the layers of more lotion rock at the core. It’s possible George is thinking of the surface layer as basalt, because as you said, basalt fits for a moon rock, and the molten rock at the core being a magical ‘bloodstone’ rock. Both Basalt, Bloodstone, and Obsidian have “frozen fire” connotations.

[Equilibrium]

The Ironborn may not be from the Iron Islands, also. Their legend of a drowned god may have come with them from wherever they came from. Considering that the Bloodstone Emperor must have been a maritime power, to reach Westerns from Asshai or wherever, the Iroborn could well be his descendants, or descendants of an ally of his, since he most likely brought armies (navies) with him, But yes, there could have been an Iron Island Impact. I actually suspect dormant volcanism - take a look at great wick and old wick. Great Wyck is a crescent, with Old Wyck in the middle, almost like a new seamont rising from the caldera of an old volcano. While I tend to identify the “Sea Dragon” which could drown whole islands in her wroth as a meteor (dragon) that land in the sea or on an island / isthmus, causing tsunamis... but it could be a volcanic island just as easily. That’s a sea dragon as well. The Grey King “slew” the sea dragon and made use of it somehow, as he does with all his enemies’ weapons. I’m trying to think of how you can slay a volcano or meteorite, or use it to your own benefit.

I know you certainly can pretend to slay a meteorite and then make a throne out of it, it's not the only time in the book that someone makes the throne out of his enemies weapons

[LmL]

I know, I have read them, they are both nicely written and The Curse of the First King is something I agree with completely. I believe there were men before FM and that Iron Isles have their own culture, but it can be explain by another human migration say from the west.

I am still not convinced about damn fish people, but it is nice possibility to play with. Sea was always mystery to human, even more so than space because it was closer and more tangible, even if there is nothing to the fish people they would imagine something.

And you should be glad, I bought your theory after like three lines and you see I am not so easily persuaded :D

Oh I am tickled pink whenever anyone says something nice about my threads. I had no idea if they would bomb or what. :)

You read Part 1, right?

[Mychel_Redfort]

Apart from Westeros being known as the Seven Kingdoms though they were historically eight, as if one had been forgotten, I searched "eight" in the books for clues of eight/seven references.

From Game Prologue :

"The camp is two miles farther on, over that ridge, hard beside a stream," Will said. "I got close as I dared. There's eight of them, men and women both. No children I could see. They put up a lean-to against the rock. The snow's pretty well covered it now, but I could still make it out. No fire burning, but the firepit was still plain as day. No one moving. I watched a long time. No living man ever stay so still."

(...)

"Fallen," Will insisted. "There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I got closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered.

The Others attacked eight wildlings, with one separated from the others. And if the destruction of the eighth wanderer caused the Long Night, who better to remember it than the Others ?

From Game 13 :

There were eight in the party by then, not counting the wolf. Tyrion traveled with two of his own men, as befit a Lannister. Benjen Stark had only his bastard nephew and some fresh mounts for the Night's Watch, but at the edge of the wolfswood they stayed a night behind the wooden walls of a forest holdfast, and there joined up with another of the black brothers, one Yoren. Yoren was stooped and sinister, his features hidden behind a beard as black as his clothing, but he seemed as tough as an old root and as hard as stone. With him were a pair of ragged peasant boys from the Fingers. "Rapers," Yoren said with a cold look at his charges. Tyrion understood. Life on the Wall was said to be hard, but no doubt it was preferable to castration.

Soon after they reach Castle Black, Benjen leaves and disappears.

From Clash 24 :

"When I require your counsel I shall ask for it," his father said. "We have had a bird from Old Wyk. Dagmer is bringing the Drumms and Stonehouses. If the god grants us good winds, we will sail when they arrive... or you will. I mean for you to strike the first blow, Theon. You shall take eight longships north..."

"Eight?" His face reddened. "What can I hope to accomplish with only eight longships?"

Theon finds a way : he abandons one longship and go inland to take Winterfell

From Storm 32 :

Symon smiled modestly. "I am prepared to prove the truth of my boast before king and court. Hamish is old, and oft forgets what he is singing. And Collio, with that absurd Tyroshi accent! If you understand one word in three, count yourself fortunate."

"My sweet sister has arranged the feast. Even if I could secure you this invitation, it might look queer. Seven kingdoms, seven vows, seven challenges, seventy-seven dishes... but eight singers? What would the High Septon think?"

Symon suggests eight singers, Tyrion has him killed to come back to seven. Eight singer in a wedding seems heretic to him.

From Storm Epilogue :

And even that I failed at. He'd cozened the huge northman into drinking enough wine to kill any three normal men, yet after Roslin had been bedded the Greatjon still managed to snatch the sword of the first man to accost him and break his arm in the snatching. It had taken eight of them to get him into chains, and the effort had left two men wounded, one dead, and poor old Ser Leslyn Haigh short half a ear. When he couldn't fight with his hands any longer, Umber had fought with his teeth.

From Feast 23 :

"Just Lord Robert. Him, and the Vale." Petyr smiled. "There will be eight of them. Lord Nestor is showing them up, and they have Lyn Corbray with them. Ser Lyn is not the sort of man to stay away when blood is in the offing."

Eight Lords Declarant come, but Lyn Corbray works for Littlefinger.

There are also eight Sand Snakes, all in Dorne except Sarella in Oldtown

[LmL]

I know you certainly can pretend to slay a meteorite and then make a throne out of it, it's not the only time in the book that someone makes the throne out of his enemies weapons

That fits.

A weird detail about House Velaryon: supposedly they defeated the ‘Merlings’ on their island and then received from them the driftwood throne as a gift. Hmmm.

[Equilibrium]

Oh I am tickled pink whenever anyone says something nice about my threads. I had no idea if they would bomb or what. :)

You read Part 1, right?

Of course whole thread, I even tried to contribute but in my opinion there was much less to be added to first part of your theory.

[LmL]

Nice work there Mychel Redfort!! I didn’t want to quote your post, since it would remove all the book citations, but yeah, those are all terrific. :) I was meaning to get around to that kind of search at some point... now i can just refer back to this thread. I bet this pattern is all over the place. George tends to do that so people like me don’t think themselves crazy.

Terrific corroboration for the idea that an 8th moon really did in fact exist.

[Equilibrium]

A weird detail about House Velaryon: supposedly they defeated the ‘Merlings’ on their island and then received from them the driftwood throne as a gift. Hmmm.

They allegedly got it from merling king as sign of the pact, which can be interpreted as Velaryons getting dominion over seas.

But maybe they engaged in piracy and made the throne from pieces of destroyed ships that have washed ashore on Driftmark, again they got the throne from ruling the seas and throne again in turn symbolizes their rule.

[Mychel_Redfort]

There are also eight Sand Snakes, all in Dorne except Sarella in Oldtown

This also fits with "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler"

[LmL]

This also fits with "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler"

!!!!

DID WE JUST SOLVE THAT?!?!?!

!!!!

[LmL]

Ok, so are there other Sphinx connections to the destroyed moon? The ones in Oldtown are Lion bodies, wings, and serpent's tail, right? With human heads? If that's a sea serpent, we have land, sea, and air. Are those the three impacts? One on land, one in the water, and one exploded in the air like Tunguska?

[Ygritte]

Ok, so are there other Sphinx connections to the destroyed moon? The ones in Oldtown are Lion bodies, wings, and serpent's tail, right? With human heads? If that's a sea serpent, we have land, sea, and air. Are those the three impacts? One on land, one in the water, and one exploded in the air like Tunguska?

Hold on, there's a sphinx thing in ADWD, brb

ETA: Here it is.

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

Doesn't seem to say what stone was used. The queen is dragonish. The king is MIA.

[LmL]

If the Sphinx is the riddler, the riddle is "three heads have the dragon." Three heads for three impacts? Three body parts of the Sphinx to symbolize three impacts? The three heads need to be a lion, a winged creature, and a serpent or sea creature, maybe? Tyrion, Vic, Dany?

I should make clear: I think the water, lions heart, and Nissa Nissa forging pattern might refer to both the three comet tails / forgings, as well as the three impacts on Planetos. There are a few ways to fit that, so it is murky, but I'm still trying to find the three impacts for certain as well.

[Mychel_Redfort]

From Feast Prologue :

It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras "the Sphinx." A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx.

The lion is for the sun !

[LmL]

Hold on, there's a sphinx thing in ADWD, brb

ETA: Here it is.

Doesn't seem to say what stone was used. The queen is dragonish. The king is MIA.

Another way to say that is that she is a widow, like Widow's Wail, the sword that represents the comet half which struck the bloodstone moon.

The King was hauled away to Vaes Dothrak, at the foot of the Mother of Mountains, the womb of the world. I've been wondering about that - seems significant, and the Dothraki too. How could that fit in celestially? Is that the tombstone for the fallen goddess?

[Mychel_Redfort]

From Feast 45 :

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. Just beyond stood Scribe's Hearth, where Oldtowners came in search of acolytes to write their wills and read their letters. Half a dozen bored scribes sat in open stalls, waiting for some custom. At other stalls books were being bought and sold. Sam stopped at one that offered maps, and looked over a hand-drawn map of Citadel to ascertain the shortest way to the Seneschal's Court.

That makes for four different parts...

[LmL]

From Feast Prologue :

The lion is for the sun !

I think this hawk winged, human-faced lion with a serpent's tail could be another way of describing a comet, much like Quetzal Coatl the "plumed serpent."

[LmL]

When the comet impacts, perhaps those aspects separate into the three meteor impacts