Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Durran Durrandon]

I am a bit wary of any view that supports the dualism of the Red Priest, and I think the religion of the Drowned God has similarly flawed. The Empire of the Dawn myth gives us two deities that are opposites, but not in opposition the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night. Neither is good or evil. Similarly the in the Stormland mythos the Sea God and the Wind Goddess are opposites, but not in opposition. The conflict in both stems from the sacrilege of humanity. On this note I am wondering if there is another parallel with our Qartheen moon myth in the Stormland mythos.

The legends surrounding the founder of House Durrandon, Durran Godsgrief, all come to us through the singers. The songs tell us that Durran won the heart of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. By yielding to a mortal’s love, Elenei doomed herself to a mortal’s death, and for this the gods who had given her birth hated the man she had taken for her lord husband.

In this version Elenei would seem to be the moon brought down to Earth and a mortal death by human action.

[LmL]

I am a bit wary of any view that supports the dualism of the Red Priest, and I think the religion of the Drowned God has similarly flawed. The Empire of the Dawn myth gives us two deities that are opposites, but not in opposition the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night. Neither is good or evil. Similarly the in the Stormland mythos the Sea God and the Wind Goddess are opposites, but not in opposition. The conflict in both stems from the sacrilege of humanity. On this note I am wondering if there is another parallel with our Qartheen moon myth in the Stormland mythos.

In this version Elenei would seem to be the moon brought down to Earth and a mortal death by human action.

Yeah buddy, I think you nailed that one! I've definitely had this myth on the list to dissect, but hadn't gotten to it yet. I think I agree with your interpretation - I bet "Elenei" or a similar word has real world connotations - it sounds familiar. So, different cultures perceive this fallen God in various ways - some as Nissa Nissa, some as the Drowned God, others as Elenei, daughter of the original Divine Pair.

We agree 100% on the idea that the 'Golden Age' occurred when there was harmony and balance - George's version of "good," with imbalance and discord as "evil." These ideas run all throughout the text.

This actually gives us a hint about which cultures have a memory of the Dawn Age. Anyone with a story of original opposite deities in balance has at least some connection to a Dawn Age culture.

The Rhoynar leap to mind, in addition to all the ones we talked about.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I had this legend in mind since Lucifer means Lightbringer started his threads on Astronomy behind the Legends, because to me it's the better example of this in our world, but it wasn't pertinent until yesterday, when we established that Sarella herself was a symbol of a hidden astronomical event, the eighth wanderer, the destroyed second moon. I'll show you know why it makes sense. I also would like to apologize in advance, english is not my first language, so my style may be not very academic.

First, I have to tell you about an astronomical phenomenon on Earth called the precession of the equinoxes.

In astronomy, axial precession is a gravity-induced, slow, and continuous change in the orientation of an astronomical body's rotational axis. In particular, it refers to the gradual shift in the orientation of Earth's axis of rotation, which, similar to a wobbling top, traces out a pair of cones joined at their apices in a cycle of approximately 26,000 years.

The precession of the Earth's axis has a number of observable effects. First, the positions of the south and north celestial poles appear to move in circles against the space-fixed backdrop of stars, completing one circuit in approximately 26,000 years. Thus, while today the star Polaris lies approximately at the north celestial pole, this will change over time, and other stars will become the "north star". In approximately 3200 years, the star Gamma Cephei in the Cepheus constellation will succeed Polaris for this position. The south celestial pole currently lacks a bright star to mark its position, but over time precession also will cause bright stars to become south stars.

Let's introduce now the vernal equinox : it's the point in the stars where is the Sun the day of the spring equinox. Due to the precession of the equinoxes, the Sun seems to reach this point a little earlier each year, and the vernal point seems to move through the twelve zodiacal constellations, making a whole turn after each complete cycle of 26,000 years. Here is how it moved in the last 6,000 years.

Historically, the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes is given to Hipparchus in the second century BC, but some theories claim the phenomenon was known from ancient civilizations (Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks), and I believe a hint to that can be found in the legend of the eleventh labour of Hercules : the Apples of the Hesperides.

First I have to give credits : I've read this interpretation of this labour in the book of the French sidereal astrologist Marie Delclos : Astrologie, racines secrètes et sacrées (Astrology, secret and sacred roots), a book about the history of astrology. Sadly, I can't put my hands on my own copy right now, so I'm writing this out of memory.

The Hesperides are the Nymphs of the Sunset. Their parents differ with the versions, but in one of them, they are the daughters of Atlas and Hesperis, herself daughter of Hesperus, the personification of the "evening star", Venus. He's sometimes confused with his brother Phosphorus, the star of the morning, literally the bearer of light, often translated in "Lucifer" in Latin. The three nymphs are named Aegle "the dazzling light", Erytheia "the red one", and Hesperarethusa "the sunset glow". The Hesperides keep a garden where golden apples, giving immortality, grow. A hundred-headed dragon, Ladon, is also in the garden as an additional safeguard. For his eleventh labour, Hercules has to retrieve three golden apples. Near the garden he finds the father of the Hesperides, Atlas, holding the celestial spheres on his shoulders. He sends Atlas retrieve the golden apples for him, holding up the heavens for a little while in his place. Then he tricks Atlas to have him retake his place. Hercules brings back the apples, and later Athena put them back in the garden of the Hesperides.

Marie Delclos's interpretation of the myth : the garden of the Hesperides is the circumpolar area, a group of stars that never sets due to its proximity to the north celestial pole. The dragon Ladon is the constellation Draco that circles around the north ecliptical pole. When Hercules takes Atlas's place to hold the celestial spheres, Earth's axis of rotation is moving : the vernal equinox moves in another zodiacal constellation/astrological sign, each apple representing one decan. The taking of the apples also represents the changings of the pole star.

So according to Marie Delclos, the astronomical phenomenon of the precession of the equinoxes is hidden in a myth, Hercules's eleventh labor, the golden apples of the Hesperides. This could be a reference for the use of apples when Sarella/Alleras is introduced in the prologue of Feast, if Sarella, the eighth Sand Snake, separated from the seven others, is indeed the personification of the eighth wanderer, the second moon destroyed by the red comet, a forgotten astronomical event. We can sure find hints in the text. Just look at how the chapter begins :

"Dragons," said Mollander. He snatched a withered apple off the ground and tossed it hand to hand.

"Throw the apple," urged Alleras the Sphinx. He slipped an arrow from his quiver and nocked it to his bowstring.

In the first sentences we already have dragons (the red comet), the apples and Alleras the Sphinx, who's the riddle and not the riddler.

Mollander throws three apples. Alleras gets the first, it falls in the river : may be the first forging of the comet in ice. Alleras splits the second apple in two, one half falling near Armen. The splitting in two sure calls to the comet making the same near the sun. LmL up in this thread suggests Armen could be linked to the Arm of the Stepstones as an impact site. The third apple is more intriguing : Alleras misses it, as she always misses her last shot. Could mean that the biggest meteor after the second moon was shattered brushed past Planetos but missed it.

[Nozlym]

Could mean that the biggest meteor after the second moon was shattered brushed past Planetos but missed it.

i thought the second meteor is the one in the story right now

[Mychel_Redfort]

I meant the biggest of the meteors that fell on or near Planetos after the destruction of the moon, not the second half of the comet.

[Nozlym]

ok

[Voice]

Amazing thread Lucifer Means Lightbringer. So much to think about. Even now including The Night's King being King during the Long Night!

From Lucifer Means Lightbringer, Voice of the First Men and others,

We now have two possible astronomical origins of the Long Night.

1) Planetos is hit by fragments of its second moon. So much debris is thrown into the atmosphere that the sky is hidden for a whole generation.

2) Planetos is in an eclipse for years at a time. Stars and the moon are still visible.

Old Nan & sources in Yi Ti talk about the sun (or sun-god) hiding for years at a time.

If you imagine an eclipse on Planetos, it would require another planet (or the moon) to remain between Planetos and the sun for years and years at a time. Eclipses are usually very local, too & we know that the Long Night covered at least Westeros and Essos. I think a more likely explanation for a long night with stars and moon is that Westeros and Essos face away from the sun for all those years. Literally a long night. The night could have occured if Planetos stopped spinning at a time when Westeros and Essos were facing away from the sun. This link on Venus' spin indicates it could be possible

In summary:

Planetos sustains an impact which changes its orbit and spin, causing the Long Night. The long Night ends when Planetos starts spinning on an axis more perpendicular to the direction of the sun again. The Long Night could have finished after another impact changed its rotation or simply because the long Night was an unstable state (see the Venus reference). When the Long Night finishes, it is followed by irregular seasons, because Planetos' axis of rotation still wobbles - the rotation is still unstable as Planetos is not a perfect sphere with all its mass evenly distributed.

Are there any references to seeing the stars and moon during the long night?

Very tasteful name there Cat, it must be said ;)

I'm leaning toward a "magical" hiding of sun, rather than astronomical. Last thread we ran into a whole host of problems as to the orbit of the moon, nearby planets, etc. Basically, we are forced to accept Martin's inadequate, yet very firm stance on science not being the answer for Westerosi seasons and celestial phenomena. While science might provide some inspiration, it certainly isn't governing events in Martin's series. On thing that does spring to mind from your summary is the idea of magnetic pole shift, and cosmic/galactic dawn. If you google those, you're bound to find some very Song of Ice and Fire-ish sounding stuff. I think we'd have to add those to the ever-growing list of Martin's muses.

[Voice]

Just kind of thinking out loud here. In light of the astronomy discussion, I wonder if the crown of winter roses could be viewed as a halo. One might immediately think of (fallen) angels, but also the halo that is sometimes seen during an eclipse.

I like this a lot. Ties the whole Ice and Fire "song" to very celestial images. The Others are cold, like space, and punctuated by very bright blue stars. These stars seem able to look into our innermost of hearts, as we see through V6's prologue. We had a lengthy discussion of the rose crown in heresy some time ago, and how Rhaegar may have been evoking the Bael the Bard story, which wasn't taken too kindly by Rickard and Brandon. Perhaps there was a celestial layer as well. Perhaps the blue rose itself represents the cyclical nature of winter, life, death, etc and the crown of them -- blue -- and to be crowned with that blue of winter... Hmm. Brings to mind HBO's version of Night's King. While we can't trust that image, yet, it does make you wonder.

[Voice]

The crown of blue roses can be interpreted as "northern lights" or

Aurora or Dawn (see what I am getting at) is Roman goddess of dawn.

On Earth, we have Aurora Borealis (northern hemisphere), and Aurora Australis (southern hemisphere).

The lights are usually green, but they can also be red or blue.

Greek version of goddess Aurora is Titaness and goddess Eos. She is also sister of Helios (god of the Sun) and Selene (goddess of the moon).

Aurora appears most often in sexual poetry with one of her mortal lovers. A myth taken from the Greek by Roman poets tells that one of her lovers was the prince of Troy, Tithonus. Tithonus was a mortal, and would therefore age and die. Wanting to be with her lover for all eternity, Aurora asked Jupiter to grant immortality to Tithonus. Jupiter granted her wish, but she failed to ask for eternal youth to accompany his immortality, and he became forever old. Aurora turned him into a grasshopper.

Both Eos and Aurora are derived from

This sheds quite a new light on Harrenhal tourney, crowning of Lyanna, her abduction and ToJ as well.

Very nice.

[Voice]

I am a bit wary of any view that supports the dualism of the Red Priest, and I think the religion of the Drowned God has similarly flawed. The Empire of the Dawn myth gives us two deities that are opposites, but not in opposition the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night. Neither is good or evil. Similarly the in the Stormland mythos the Sea God and the Wind Goddess are opposites, but not in opposition. The conflict in both stems from the sacrilege of humanity. On this note I am wondering if there is another parallel with our Qartheen moon myth in the Stormland mythos.

In this version Elenei would seem to be the moon brought down to Earth and a mortal death by human action.

Great point. Honestly, I think R'llhorism is just a fanatical cult, and will prove tangential to the series. Not that there aren't parallels to be drawn from their doings and ravings, but I can't shake the feeling that Mel and Moqorro are just nutjobs. Mel sees this as two diametrically opposed forces, but the world needs ice and winter, just as it needs fire and summer. One is not good and one is not evil.

[LmL]

Great point. Honestly, I think R'llhorism is just a fanatical cult, and will prove tangential to the series. Not that there aren't parallels to be drawn from their doings and ravings, but I can't shake the feeling that Mel and Moqorro are just nutjobs. Mel sees this as two diametrically opposed forces, but the world needs ice and winter, just as it needs fire and summer. One is not good and one is not evil.

I agree with both of you, their picture is very limited or warped. See if you can follow my logic here: the Chirch of Starry Wisdom was started by the Bloodstone Emperor (I but this idea very much). It still exists today "in port cities around the world" - that's 8,000 - 10,000 years of existence! Now maybe they died out for a long time, and someone later discovered their writings and revived it, but, this means that the ideas and the magical knowledge of the Bloodstone Emperor lived on after his death. To this ore sent day. Two conclusions:

1.) we should be looking for characters in the story who may be Starry Wisdom followers, and,

2.) they may well have influenced or even created the religion of R'hllorism. To me, this makes sense as a white-washing of Azor Ahai, the Bloostone Emperor. As I said in Part 2 - just what kind of fire magic do people from a place called The Shadow do exactly? Oh that's right - shadow babies and UNWILLING human sacrifice, even of children. The fire magic of Asshai by the Shadow is perverted, twisted. More smoke than flame. More shadow than fire. So to me, R'hllorism makes a great deal of sense as a PR spin job.

[LmL]

I like this a lot. Ties the whole Ice and Fire "song" to very celestial images. The Others are cold, like space, and punctuated by very bright blue stars. These stars seem able to look into our innermost of hearts, as we see through V6's prologue. We had a lengthy discussion of the rose crown in heresy some time ago, and how Rhaegar may have been evoking the Bael the Bard story, which wasn't taken too kindly by Rickard and Brandon. Perhaps there was a celestial layer as well. Perhaps the blue rose itself represents the cyclical nature of winter, life, death, etc and the crown of them -- blue -- and to be crowned with that blue of winter... Hmm. Brings to mind HBO's version of Night's King. While we can't trust that image, yet, it does make you wonder.

I'm so glad you picked up on the concept of Space as representing the Others and being the opposite of the Sun. This is all coming next part, but basically, this is how I see it:

Sun - the bright fire

Space - the dark cold

Bloodstone Moon - dark fire

Remaining Ice Moon - bright Ice (Ice that shines)

The moons represent dual aspected things, or opposite natured things, and most likely have a lot to do with botht the seasonal balance and magical balance of Planetos. I think I can prove all this by showing the composition of each moon, supported by textual evidence and mythology, and if I am right, this has massive ramifications on all sorts of levels.

They did name swords "Blackfyre" and "Dark Sister." Meanwhile, the sword that looks like milkglass (aka "like an Others' sword, like ice reflecting moonlight) ) is associated with the bright light of Dawn, as well as the mineral phosphors, for both geological and mythological connotations, which I will show next part. This is what I am talking about - Martin didn't want to just give us bright fire and dark ice... He's created a scenario for a switcheroo, ice that shines and fire that is black. I can't wait to tear into this fully.

[Kingmonkey]

Here we have a story of a betrayal and murder leading to the Long Night, a perfect match for the celestial event put forward - the betrayal and murder of the second moon by the sun which lead to the Long Night ("moon is wife of sun.. it is known.") It also matches the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, if we interpret it as a betrayal and murder as opposed to a willing sacrifice. And that's exactly what I mean to suggest - all hail the Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai, First of his Name, God-Emperor of the Great Empire of the Night and High Priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom, practitioner of dark arts, torture, and necromancy; enslaver of his own people and eater of human flesh; he who slew the Amethyst Empress, threw down the true gods, and worshipped the black stone which fell from the sky.

I think the problem with this is that you are looking for an equivalence in myths based on a shared origin of those myths. This is a danger whenever we consider comparative mythology. The Bloodstone Emperor and Azor Ahai may be mythic figures representing the same role in the same celestial event, but if they originate in different mythos, they aren't necessarily equivalent.

Thousands of years after the actual events, each set of myths has been mangled and mixed with pre-existing myth. AA might be a pre-existing sun-god, and the events of the collision were explained by his worshippers in one way, while the bloodstone emperor may be a heavily mythologised ruler during the LN who's actual history has been largely supplanted by a purely mythic story developed from those same events. We could even consider the possibility that one culture's gods might become another cultures demons.

In one version, the sun hid it's face. In the other, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back. That makes it pretty clear that this version of the myth has reversed the typical gender roles for the sun and moon, with the sun being the Maiden-Made-of-Light, and the Lion of Night most likely being the bloodstone moon. The darkened sun of the Long Night, barely visible through the dark cloud cover, may have been seen as bigger, more powerful version of the bloodstone moon, a true Night Sun, and therefore the Lion of Night was said roam free and punish mankind.

I don't quite follow the logic here. If the maiden made of light is the moon, and the moon has been destroyed, couldn't that be seen as "turning her back"? She's no longer shining in the sky, after all. If the sun is obscured by debris and the moon is destroyed, BOTH of them are hiding. I don't see any necessity to moot a gender reversal.

So what was the sun ashamed of? Well, it's remembered for cracking the moon like an egg - a betrayal on a cosmic scale. Whether the sun's gender is male or female, it is the betrayer, the destroyer of moons. Yet another indication that Azor Ahai, warrior of fire, may not have been the hero the red priests of R'hllor want us to believe he was.

I think what we're seeing here is a difference of opinion on cause and effect. To the followers of Azor Ahai, the forging of lightbringer was a necessary sacrifice to enable the ending of the long night, whereas in the Yi Ti version of the myth, the same event is regarded as the betrayal that causes the long night in the first place. Thus the same celestial event could be positive in one interpretation and negative in another.

We are told in the Worldbook section quoted above that the flaming sword warrior is known by several names: Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. These are all interesting for various reasons. Let's start with talking about where these different names might have originated from.

I would be wary to draw too much from some of these names. In the case of Hyrkoon and Eldric, I'm pretty sure that is GRRM giving a little nod to Michael Moorcock's antihero Elric of Melnibone and his cousin/nemesis Yyrkoon. Even Yin Tar sounds rather Melnibonean (there was a character called Dyvim Tvar, for example). Let's not forget that Elric's sword was called Stormbringer.

[Kingmonkey]

Lucifer is the Latin word for "morning star," which is known as Venus (during the period when it is visible at sunrise) to cultures all around the world. Lucifer can be translated as "light-bringer," "light-bearer," "morning star," "bringer of dawn," or "shining one."

Well as your name says, Lucifer means light-bringer, not literally morning star. The use of "Lucifer" in the Isaiah passage is an innovation of the translators of the King James bible. Of course, the correlation is obvious: Venus, the morning star, is the herald of the sunrise. It's worth pointing out for the biblical references that the phrase "morning star" is only in this one passage associated with the "fallen angel" that we nowadays like to call Lucifer. In the NT, Jesus is referred to as the morning star at least a couple of times.

Something I suppose we should consider from this correlation is whether we're actually dealing with the correct celestial "entities". It's a little bit of an oddity that Azor Ahai would be considered the sun in a fire-worshipping religion. Surely R'Hllor is the sun? We should consider the possibility that Azor Ahai is a son-of-the-sun solar hero deity, and thus may be the Planetosi Venus rather than the sun itself.

In the main plot of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Lightbringer comet is playing the role of Morningstar and Evenstar. When a comet's orbit takes it closer to the sun and inside that of Earth, it acts the same way that Venus does, rising first in the morning for a period, and then in the evening at sunset for a period. And indeed, this is just how the comet acts in the story.

We also have a Sword of the Morning constellation, and of course the Dayne tradition of a Sword of the Morning who is the wielder of Dawn. Yet intriguingly, one of the kings who Nymeria sent to the wall was a Dayne King with the title "Sword of the evening". I wonder if House Dayne used to have two swords, and if it's possible that Vorian Dayne's sword ended up in the hands of House Stark? And could Gerold Dayne's "darkstar" title relate to this older "Sword of the Evening" title? Is there a relation to the Evenstar of Tarth?

A TALE OF TWO DEITIES

Lots of interesting stuff here, but something well worth adding that might give you something to think about in relation to the R'hllorian faith. The Gnostic dualism owes an awful lot to the dualism of Zoroastrianism. Later Zoroastrianism strongly emphasises the holy nature of fire, and this concept of the holy fire was eventually personified as Atar Yazada, the son of Ahura Mazda. Interestingly this name modernises as Azar Yazad or Azar Izad. Sound familiar?

I leave you with this passage from a Brienne chapter in AFFC, where someone named Lord Lucifer is mentioned in close proximity to a story about a hero with a magic sword. It begins with a narrative summary of some of the stories nimble Dick has been telling on the road to the whispers, where Brienne will kill several people with her own "magic sword" in front of a heart tree.

This is fascinating stuff, and ties up nicely with the ideas of Brienne as evenstar and the role of Ice reforged. Let me quote back this section, of twofold interest:

"Why would I lie?" She asked him. "Every place has it's local heroes. Where I come from the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, The Perfect Knight."

The example of a local hero that Brienne gives has the name "Morne", obviously similar to morning. I think the most important thing to observe here is her point about local heroes, which goes back to what I've said about syncreticism and comparative myth in my post above and in PMs with you. We should expect to see parallels in myth, but shouldn't necessarily assume they relate to the same actual person any more than Lord Lucifer Hardy and Ser Galladon of Morne do.

[J. Stargaryen]

Elio mentioned or speculated on Twitter that Vorian Dayne was called the Sword of Evening because he was the last Dayne king.

[Cat of the First Men]

I suggested an axis wobble set off by the destruction of the second moon, among other similar ideas. Problem with this or any axis-related explanation is that it would make navigating by the stars totally impossible, as the celestial North Pole would not be fixed. I think we would hear about this from the characters.

Of course we don't know how big the planet is, but I don't know if all of Westeros to Asshai could be hidden on one side of the planet... And if Planetos stopped spinning - wouldn't everyone pretty much die? Correct me if I am wrong.

Somehow my reference to Venus went missing. I'll try again. www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-venus-spins-the-wrong/ It includes a theory that Venus stopped spinning completely for a while. Meanwhile, there's no life on Venus, so maybe, yes, everything would be either frozen or cooked for a long time. The frozen part sounds rather like the Long Night to me. You could get enough warmth to live underground (presuming the core of Planetos is molten), but I don't know what any creatures would eat. Neither can I understand what anyone would have eaten in the Long Night (or what the CotF eat in their underground cave system, unless they live off the roots of weirwood trees).

I don't think we know the actual size of Planetos. It does seem unlikely to have all of Westeros to Asshai in darkness or light at the one time, but we really don't know how much of Planetos is as yet uncharted. From Yi Ti eastwards to Westeros might be a single ocean, but it also might be oceans and another continent the size of Essos. Alternatively, we've never heard of the southern hemisphere of Planetos. If Planetos were to wobble so far on its axis that it is spinning parallet to the sun, the whole of the northern hemisphere would be in winter and both Yi Ti and Westeros could be in darkness at the same time.

As for navigation, you may be right. People would find navigation by the stars more difficult with Planetos' axis wobbling, but navigation may still be possible, as long as things like good time-keeping, the zenith of the sun in the daytime sky and the recent departure of the planet's magnetic and celestial north are taken into account. I suppose the Westerosi don't have magnetic navigation yet. Perhaps these kind of issues are why GRRM has said that the origin of the long seasons is magical, rather than scientific.

Sorry if this response from comments upthread is repeating anything downthread. This is growing at an alarming rate :)

[LmL]

I think the problem with this is that you are looking for an equivalence in myths based on a shared origin of those myths. This is a danger whenever we consider comparative mythology. The Bloodstone Emperor and Azor Ahai may be mythic figures representing the same role in the same celestial event, but if they originate in different mythos, they aren't necessarily equivalent.

As far as comparative mythology, there are universal archetypes, like a sun god, or a corn King, or a mother goddess... Or even the Hamlet character, or that of Ba'al. These will be different in every area in culture, but often similar. Local heroes are usually grafted on to these archetypal roles, shaping the local myth.

There's also simply local heroes who become legends, that's true.

But then there the universal myths, the ones which originate from world shaking events. The most famous one is of course the flood myth, which is actually almost always tied to the myth of 'Atlantis,' aka a lost advanced island civilization from whom the survivors flee and bring advanced knowledge, usually pertaining to farming, astronomy, and writing... and of course, building massive stone temples. Point being, when the ice age was melting down, between 13,000 BCE and 7000 BCE, we had several periods of severe global flooding (new research points to comet impacts triggering release of glacial meltwater lakes). Thus, nearly everyone who can trace their culture back into antiquity has a flood myth. Sometimes, the details are so similar that the only conclusion is a common point of origin for that SPECIFIC version of the myth - some Native American tribes have a Noah's ark story with a guy with a similar name who builds an ark for the animals, and even releases birds to test for dry land. Same as the Chaldean flood myth, from which the Biblical story was taken. But the we have totally different flood myths in other parts of the world.. indicating that they too experienced the flood, but developed a totally different narrative to explain it.

In Yi Ti they also have a legend that the LN was only averted by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail. In Westeros, the LN ended because of the LH and his 12 companions and his dragon steel. So. Both myth-makers experienced the LN, but don't have the same story about how it ended, therefore, they probably didn't have contact with one another. The fact that this story exists in Yi Ti is a clue that the Azor Ahai story isn't one about curing the Long Night, to me.

On the other hand, the story of a guy with a flaming sword named Lightbringer occurs in many places which used to be part of the Great Empire of the Dawn. This indicates those are all versions of the same myth, and thus share a common origin. It could be a story about a real guy with a sword, but given that the symbolism of the entire AA / Lightbringer story is loaded with celestial metaphor; given that mankind has always made myths about the heavens; and given that the celestial scenario I proposed fits so tightly with both the Azor Ahai myth and that of the Bloodstone emperor, I think I have made a compelling case that it refers to both celestial events AND planetary ones.

Thousands of years after the actual events, each set of myths has been mangled and mixed with pre-existing myth. AA might be a pre-existing sun-god, and the events of the collision were explained by his worshippers in one way, while the bloodstone emperor may be a heavily mythologised ruler during the LN who's actual history has been largely supplanted by a purely mythic story developed from those same events. We could even consider the possibility that one culture's gods might become another cultures demons.

These are all valid ideas on their own, but I believe I have that the proposed celestial scenario is carefully, meticulously, and intentionally spelled out throughout all five books. It fits the background mythology from which George created his Lightbringer myth and all its characters, it fits with the physical description we have of the Long Night AND it's fits, blow by blow, the description of the Azor Ahai story. I determined that Azor Ahai forging Lightbringer must be the CAUSE of the LN because the celestial scenario it described would cause in fact stand a very high probability of causing a LN type scenario. Then, as I looked for evidence that Azor Ahai and R'hllorism are in fact twisted fire magic, having far more to do with shadows that light, and it seems to be everywhere. It seems to match the Bloodstone Emperor story perfectly. And that's not a story from YI Ti - we know the Great Empire of the Dawn did NOT reform after the LN. The Yi Tish are merely trying to carry their mantle, just as Volantis did after Valyria, and just as countless later dynasties did in Egypt, badly miming the ancient Pharoahs. Remember that the Gemstone-eyed emperors of the GEotD appeared to Dany in Book One. They are important, don't look past them.

It's possible I have a higher level of certainty on some of this because I haven't even come close to putting out all the evidence which corroborates the celestial origins of Planetos myths premise in my first essay. Perhaps future installments will convince you more, perhaps not.

I don't quite follow the logic here. If the maiden made of light is the moon, and the moon has been destroyed, couldn't that be seen as "turning her back"? She's no longer shining in the sky, after all. If the sun is obscured by debris and the moon is destroyed, BOTH of them are hiding. I don't see any necessity to moot a gender reversal.

It's simple- I'm simply pointing out that the Maiden made of Light is the sun. Both stories of Yi Ti have the the sun turning its back or hiding it's face, which is what everyone says about the LN (Old Nan says it too). In one story, it's called the Maiden made of Light, and one time just the sun. That means the MaidenMoL= the sun. It's a gender reversal only in the sense that the sun is USUALLY but not always seen as male.

I think what we're seeing here is a difference of opinion on cause and effect. To the followers of Azor Ahai, the forging of lightbringer was a necessary sacrifice to enable the ending of the long night, whereas in the Yi Ti version of the myth, the same event is regarded as the betrayal that causes the long night in the first place. Thus the same celestial event could be positive in one interpretation and negative in another.

I would be wary to draw too much from some of these names. In the case of Hyrkoon and Eldric, I'm pretty sure that is GRRM giving a little nod to Michael Moorcock's antihero Elric of Melnibone and his cousin/nemesis Yyrkoon. Even Yin Tar sounds rather Melnibonean (there was a character called Dyvim Tvar, for example). Let's not forget that Elric's sword was called Stormbringer.

Oh I agree he's giving a nod there - but that's is no reason at all to think they aren't important.

[Modesty Lannister]

There is one quote from TWOIAF that you (and all of us) should have in mind while discussing comparative mythology of Planetos.

One issue that plagues all studies of the ancient records is how differently the varied cultures reckon days and seasons and years. Archmaester Walgram's great work The Reckoning of Time delves deeply into this problem, but there is little consensus of what the dates we actually mean in our own reckoning.

So, when you talk about ancient eastern emperors who ruled for thousands of years, they may not be symbols of dynasties. They may as well be emperors who ruled for a normal amount of time. The same applies to the Age of Heros. The only thing we KNOW lasted for a generation was LONG NIGHT.

The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.

Dalla

So, the nature of magic is all about intent. Duality lies in the goal of the person who wields magic, not the magic itself. Therefore any cult can be positive and/or negative per se. However, we should examine the intent of its followers.

[Equilibrium]

I've done very careful reread of the AFFC prologue an I have few potential catches

- Pate was referred to as Thief multiple times it was very conspicuous if you read carefully, any connection to the wildling celestial body is beyond me

Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister’s brave men

Something was dashed and Lion of Lannister is not so common phrase. Lion (sun) dashed second moon with comet

- Sphinx now has 3 links and is celebration the copper one (history) Copper is red and links can be viewed as orbits, comet split and there is third orbit now.

- Pate remembers how he failed exam of heavens, astrology asked by m. Vaellyn, stargazer, link is bronze (alloy of copper, connection history-astrology)

Archmaester Benedict insisted that there had never been a war of five kings, since Renly Baratheon had been slain before Balon Greyjoy had crowned himself

It's four that were five, similar to the seven that were eight

- Constant mentions of the number 4, Armen has 4 links (only we know what it is, is copper), 4 glass candles, and mist swallowed four Pate's companions, which maybe has something to do with darkness swallowing celestial bodied in LN

- Starry Sept is built from black marble. Faith of the Seven can be Andal version of Church of the Starry Wisdom, that's why BSE worshiped the stone (it was literally eighth god) and that is why Seven are seven one of them is no more.

Now some more mythology. Just to return to Lightbringer, we have another one from mythology, and Greek one at that

Phanes or Protogonos, was the mystic primeval deity of procreation and the generation of new life

Phanes is often equated with Eros and Mithras and has been depicted as a deity emerging from a cosmic egg, entwined with a serpent. Time, who was also called Aion, created the silver egg of the universe, out of this egg burst out the first-born, Phanes, who was also called Dionysus. Phanes was a uroboric male-female deity of light and goodness, whose name means "to bring light" or "to shine"; a first-born god of light who emerges from a void or a watery abyss and gives birth to the universe.

Many threads of earlier myths are apparent in the new tradition. Phanes was believed to have been hatched from the World-Egg of Chronos (Time) and Ananke (Necessity or Fate) or Nyx in the black bird form and wind. His older wife Nyx (Night) called him Protogenus. As she created nighttime, he created daytime.

Now may I direct attention to another myth archetype I don't thing we discussed, god often supreme one slaying giant monster like

- Marduk, storm god slew Tiamat sea serpent or dragon, goddess of ocean, see parallels with Drowned God religion and both ancient monster and DG represent destroyed moon

- Zeus another storm god slew Typhon, father of all monsters. Echidna was wife of Typhon, half women half snake, mother of all monsters, which can be understood as "mother of dragons" connected with moon as an egg theory and maybe with certain empress. Sphinx is one of their children

- Ra, sun god, called also bringer of light, slew Apep, serpent that tried to swallow the sun. Whole monster swallows the sun archetype is present with Fenrir and his sons in Norse mythology and Ziz, griffin like giant bird from Hebrew myths which blocks sun with it.s wings.

- Apollo, another god of light and sun, slew Python. This myth has been described as an allegory for the dispersal of the fogs and clouds of vapor which arise from ponds and marshes (Python) by the rays of the sun (the arrows of Apollo)

While at the subject of mythology I would like to point out few things about the sphinx.

- Greek sphinx is female but Egyptian one is male, so sphinx is both male and female

- Sphinx homeland is Ethiopia, and we know what it skin color of people of Ethiopia so wink to Sarella. She was brought to Thebes by Ares which can refer to moon (sphinx) being brought to earth by red comet (red comet being herald of wars and such and closes equivalent to Mars which is the planet that represents Ares.

- Fun fact, moder retelling of the story about Oedipus and sphinx is told Jean Cocteau, who had also made famous Beauty and the Beast movie, Martin owns cinema named Jean Cocteau and has done TV series Beauty and the Beast. This is more casual then causal in my opinion :D

- Then we come to riddles, besides the one referring to the ages of man there were second one Oedipus got asked

There are two sisters: one gives birth to the other and she, in turn, gives birth to the first. Who are the two sisters?" The answer is "day and night" (both words are feminine in Greek)

So we get duality and cyclical property of day and night, light and darkness

As for the first and famous one, here is what one famous alchemist trying to explain that solution is Philosopher's Stone

Sphinx is indeed reported to have had many Riddles, but this offered to Oedipus was the chief, "What is that which in the morning goeth upon four feet; upon two feet in the afternoon; and in the Evening upon three?" What was answered by Oedipus is not known. But they who interpret concerning the Ages of Man are deceived. For a Quadrangle of Four Elements are of all things first to be considered, from thence we come to the Hemisphere having two lines, a Right and a Curve, that is, to the White Luna; from thence to the Triangle which consists of Body, Soul and Spirit, or Sol, Luna and Mercury. Hence Rhasis in his Epistles, "The Stone," says he, "is a Triangle in its essence, a Quadrangle in its quality."

So we get mystical stone which is made of Sun, Moon and Mercury (Morning Star) and is related to the sphinx. This is on the wikipedia it's accessible as hell so Martin could very well knew about this. Also we should go back to our clue laden prologue and remember on whom our POV Pate waited while apple shooting happened, well the answer is Alchemist.

Yeah I know it's a mess but fresh pair of eyes might find more connections.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Somehow my reference to Venus went missing. I'll try again. www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-venus-spins-the-wrong/ It includes a theory that Venus stopped spinning completely for a while. Meanwhile, there's no life on Venus, so maybe, yes, everything would be either frozen or cooked for a long time. The frozen part sounds rather like the Long Night to me. You could get enough warmth to live underground (presuming the core of Planetos is molten), but I don't know what any creatures would eat. Neither can I understand what anyone would have eaten in the Long Night (or what the CotF eat in their underground cave system, unless they live off the roots of weirwood trees).

This article is indeed interesting. I wasn't aware of the current long days on Venus and Mercury. And long days means long nights...