Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Equilibrium]

I think we are seeing two kinds of swords - pale, blue white fire, and some kind of red fire, or maybe even fire like Drogon’s and Balerion’s - black fire shot through with red.

Dare we venture that red/black ones are bad and white/blue ones good, like you said dark fire and dark fire magic

[LmL]

Dare we venture that red/black ones are bad and white/blue ones good, like you said dark fire and dark fire magic

If those kingly ghosts Dany sees are in fact the gemstone emperors of the GEotD, as I believe they are, they have the pale fire swords, which makes it likely that that is the original form. If the Bloodstone Emperor is Azor Ahai, as I have suggested, was in the business of corrupting the magics of the GEotD, it stands to reason his "red sword of heroes" was a corrupted form of the original pale fire sword. Whether it was red, or black shot through with red, it's clearly not "pale" fire.

[LmL]

They could be different types of sorts all together, or the difference in the fire might only be in the type of sacrifice that went into it. Some kind of willing or noble sacrifice creates a pale fire, and perhaps a murder accompanied by dark magic will get you the red fire. i'd actually like to think there is a way to make a magic sword without killing anybody, myself. Dawn is pale as milkglass, and alive with light, and we are never told it required a sacrifice to be magical, but rather that the stone that fell from the sky from which it was made was magical. Ned is the one describing it as alive with light, albeit in his dream, this makes me wonder if Dawn was in fact "lighting up" during his fight with Ned. Perhaps it lights up whenever the need is there... Or perhaps Ned is an Orc. :)

[LmL]

They could be different types of swords altogether, or the difference in the fire might only be in the type of sacrifice that went into it. Some kind of willing or noble sacrifice creates a pale fire, and perhaps a murder accompanied by dark magic will get you the red fire. I'd actually like to think there is a way to make a magic sword without killing anybody, myself. Dawn is pale as milkglass, and alive with light, and we are never told it required a sacrifice to be magical, but rather that the stone that fell from the sky from which it was made was magical. Ned is the one describing it as alive with light, albeit in his dream, this makes me wonder if Dawn was in fact "lighting up" during his fight with Ned. Perhaps it lights up whenever the need is there... Or perhaps Ned is an Orc. :)

[Equilibrium]

Man you are going to love this.

You know I forwarded the thought Valyrians corrupted the GEOTD magic, after they learn it by descendents of Amethyst Empress. Now you say BSE corrupted the GEOTD magic. But get this he took the name Bloodstone Emperor, if their eye color were real not symbolic (I think they were you can do that with magic) his eyes were not or were not originally bloodstone color. His eyes were probably same color as of his sister Amethyst Empress.

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings

Kings, not rulers or kings and queens, while say Undying Ones almost ghosts themselves are described as male and female, no Amethyst Empress there.

It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel

If Blood Betrayal is what happened on earth analogy for moon cracking, then Amethyst Empress (Nissa Nissa) can't be ghost in the vision because her soul is destroyed or in the sword.

It makes much more sense for Valyrians to be descendants of BSE, they use corrupted form of magic and are generally not great guys. There is still chance for Daynes to be one and only descendants of Amethyst Empress.

[Durran Durrandon]

They could be different types of sorts all together, or the difference in the fire might only be in the type of sacrifice that went into it. Some kind of willing or noble sacrifice creates a pale fire, and perhaps a murder accompanied by dark magic will get you the red fire. i'd actually like to think there is a way to make a magic sword without killing anybody, myself. Dawn is pale as milkglass, and alive with light, and we are never told it required a sacrifice to be magical, but rather that the stone that fell from the sky from which it was made was magical. Ned is the one describing it as alive with light, albeit in his dream, this makes me wonder if Dawn was in fact "lighting up" during his fight with Ned. Perhaps it lights up whenever the need is there... Or perhaps Ned is an Orc. :)

I find this description is probably significant. "I looked at the book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium . The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” (ADwD 161)

LIgthbringer doesn't always burn fiery hot. It is merely warm to the touch, body temperature, until it it wielded in battle.

[Durran Durrandon]

Man you are going to love this.

You know I forwarded the thought Valyrians corrupted the GEOTD magic, after they learn it by descendents of Amethyst Empress. Now you say BSE corrupted the GEOTD magic. But get this he took the name Bloodstone Emperor, if their eye color were real not symbolic (I think they were you can do that with magic) his eyes were not or were not originally bloodstone color. His eyes were probably same color as of his sister Amethyst Empress.

Kings, not rulers or kings and queens, while say Undying Ones almost ghosts themselves are described as male and female, no Amethyst Empress there.

If Blood Betrayal is what happened on earth analogy for moon cracking, then Amethyst Empress (Nissa Nissa) can't be ghost in the vision because her soul is destroyed or in the sword.

It makes much more sense for Valyrians to be descendants of BSE, they use corrupted form of magic and are generally not great guys. There is still chance for Daynes to be one and only descendants of Amethyst Empress.

I don't think it follows that she can't be in Deanery's dream, because her soul was sucked into Lightbringer. This assumes NN=AE anyhow.

As for the BSE eyes. I have an idea about this. The CotW at some point say that Green Seers are born with green or sometimes red eyes. I have thought about this in regards to Brynden Rivers. People on the forums often refer to him as albino, but I don't think he is ever actually referred to as an albino in the text pink eyes much less red eyes are not common among humans with albinism . Targaryens tend to be fair, and platinum bordering on white hair is not uncommon, I think his eyes are red, because he is a Green Seer.

Similarly, I think the AE and her other relatives had Amethyst eyes, but the BSE was born a Green Seer, with dark green, almost black looking eyes with red in them, the color of blood stone.

[LmL]

I don't think it follows that she can't be in Deanery's dream, because her soul was sucked into Lightbringer. This assumes NN=AE anyhow.

As for the BSE eyes. I have an idea about this. The CotW at some point say that Green Seers are born with green or sometimes red eyes. I have thought about this in regards to Brynden Rivers. People on the forums often refer to him as albino, but I don't think he is ever actually referred to as an albino in the text pink eyes much less red eyes are not common among humans with albinism . Targaryens tend to be fair, and platinum bordering on white hair is not uncommon, I think his eyes are red, because he is a Green Seer.

Similarly, I think the AE and her other relatives had Amethyst eyes, but the BSE was born a Green Seer, with dark green, almost black looking eyes with red in them, the color of blood stone.

That's a pretty awesome idea. I thought of his eyes being weird green and red, but not because of Greenseer magic. Hmm.

Nice catch on the sword lighting up in battle. :)

[Equilibrium]

I don't think it follows that she can't be in Deanery's dream, because her soul was sucked into Lightbringer. This assumes NN=AE anyhow.

Similarly, I think the AE and her other relatives had Amethyst eyes, but the BSE was born a Green Seer, with dark green, almost black looking eyes with red in them, the color of blood stone.

I think it can, LmL's theory is based on parallels between events on the earth and those in space, AA is bad guy and BSE , NN ie. sacrifice can be only AE if this logic is followed, I am sure he will correct me if I got it wrong.

He is green seer now, even so green or red doesn't mean dark dark green with specs of read? If all of the other relatives had amethyst eyes all of them would be Amethyst Emperors, color of eyes would be symbolic and your theory would be flawed. And then theory about bloodstone rock he worshiped would be also flawed, sequence would be wrong.

I don't know, my hypothesis doesn't have to be true, I thought of it as food for thought, but I also don't know about your counter-arguments, they are tentative at best.

[The Mother of The Others]

Kings, not rulers or kings and queens, no Amethyst Empress there.

Amethyst Empress (Nissa Nissa) can't be ghost in the vision because her soul is destroyed or in the sword.

!

It makes much more sense for Valyrians to be descendants of BSE, they use corrupted form of magic and are generally not great guys. There is still chance for Daynes to be one and only descendants of Amethyst Empress.

Twas generally assumed Varyrian fire "burned wrong" (or uncleanly) because of how it was used to abuse and lord over the world, because it was an offense against nature (the deep delving caused it all to blow up in their faces, and dragon lordship flew too close to the sun), which sets them up on the opposite side from CotF who go with nature. Who knows if "evil" is the right term for that fire, though. Maybe the change was necessary for that time. Especially if, as you're suggesting, the other magic light source just got wiped out. The earlier kings' glow-sticks are pale moonlight magic then, to go with this theme, let's say. And then that natural resource burned out or got devastated by a cosmic event, similar to how Valyria then ignited an alternate fuel source (which would be enough to get AA remembered for all time if he was the inventor who switched their magics over to the new fuel. He'd look like a savior for their magic-using culture, the guy who got the pilot light on everyone's stove turned back on). Valyria then burned through the less natural replacement fuel until the world groaned and collapsed on them after they'd hollowed it out. Mel is a believer in coal? So her fervent wish for another AA to bring coal back as the #1 fuel might not be what's best if there's wind turbine tech available through the CotF. But it's also true that the AA we get might be different this time---an AA who supplies us with the important changes that are needed for this moment in time, which means JON might diverge from Melisandre's expectations and be better for the world than you guys are giving AA credit for. Or not. Nobody knows.

Re: who's the inheritors of the Bloodstone Emperor's magic & ways?

Interesting to ponder what the difference would be between the Valyrian sorcerers and today's Fire Priests of R'hllor. Are the red priests simply the next inheritors of the same sorcery? (Bloodsone Emperor --> Valyria (mainstream societal magic) --> R'hollrism (the knowledge recedes until only this cult keeps scraps of it alive). Or are the fire priests applying the mysteries in a different way than the empire ever did, using their own home cooked spells, meaning their agenda was always separate and they simply outlived the more mainstream Valyrians and now move to fill the power vacuum with their.... strangeness. I really want to see them face the Drogon Lie Detector. Will Daenerys and her drake find Moqorro worthy as someone to work with or will she burn the fire temple with a cleansing fire like how J.C. drove the crooked merchants out of the Jewish temple way back when. It could go all kinds of ways: maybe the Fire Priests AND Danny are both what the eastern continent needs, maybe both of their flames are what cauterizes the bleeding of that culture and "smelts" a new post-slavery world that works. Or maybe Moqorro is evil and Danny joining with him signals her fire is bad for the world too. Or maybe Drogon identifies the fire priests as a False Fire that's not worthy of having him as that religion's mascot. Depends on whether Danny is fated to be a success story or... to remain the problem.

re Eyes:

I'd rather not fall into the main fantasy literature trap of caring what color people's eyes are, though the pictures of the hotties in the World Book are quite lovely and because of them I don't smirk quite as much anymore at all the silver & gold hair references anymore, and it is extra fun and hot to imagine the amethyst eyes of the empress. But I refuse to use eye color as my decoder key for world history. It's just unsavory, like the BBQ sauce at Chick Fil-A just tastes too artificial and like it's the wrong way to go about devouring that chicken sandwich. (The Polynesian sauce is awesome though). So I'm still a believer in a saucy mystery of some kind. I just don't think we have enough info to ferret out the complete solution yet. It's like if we had 6 of the 8 Chick Fil-A sauces on the table in front of us, and only 3 of those still had their labels intact, so some of what we're doing is a blind taste testing and there some secret sauces we don't even have access to yet.

Ligthbringer doesn't always burn fiery hot. It is merely warm to the touch, body temperature, until it it wielded in battle.

Re: possibly overestimating the importance of the hero's particular sword----

The monster AA slew sounds like the Puddles ice Other who melted on Slayer Sam's blade. Sam isn't all that amazing, and neither was his blade. But having the "magic weapon" on hand was important. If that's the case the sword never needs to actually produce flame, it "burns" magical enemies on contact with its elementally aligned substance. These heroes' blades might not be all that singular or unique--except at first--if they're actually the Smiths who are remembered for supplying MANY such magic weapons to people when it was needed to fight off an invasion of magic beings who otherwise could not be harmed / forced into retreat.

[LmL]

I didn't want to quote your whole lost just to say "that was really interesting," but yeah, that was. A lot of cool idea in there, I especially got a kick out of the energy source metaphor. And you have me a good idea that I needed about the pale fire swords. If they were powered by pre-Ln fire moon magic, then the exploding of that moon and the landing of pieces of its corpse on Planetos might surely fuck up their swords, huh? Perhaps Dawn is the last such pale fire sword, or is a recreation of such in order to fight the Bloodstone Emperors "evil" red sword.

[Equilibrium]

Twas generally assumed Varyrian fire "burned wrong" (or uncleanly) because of how it was used to abuse and lord over the world, because it was an offense against nature (the deep delving caused it all to blow up in their faces, and dragon lordship flew too close to the sun), which sets them up on the opposite side from CotF who go with nature. Who knows if "evil" is the right term for that fire, though. Maybe the change was necessary for that time. Especially if, as you're suggesting, the other magic light source just got wiped out. The earlier kings' glow-sticks are pale moonlight magic then, to go with this theme, let's say. And then that natural resource burned out or got devastated by a cosmic event, similar to how Valyria then ignited an alternate fuel source (which would be enough to get AA remembered for all time if he was the inventor who switched their magics over to the new fuel. He'd look like a savior for their magic-using culture, the guy who got the pilot light on everyone's stove turned back on). Valyria then burned through the less natural replacement fuel until the world groaned and collapsed on them after they'd hollowed it out. Mel is a believer in coal? So her fervent wish for another AA to bring coal back as the #1 fuel might not be what's best if there's wind turbine tech available through the CotF. But it's also true that the AA we get might be different this time---an AA who supplies us with the important changes that are needed for this moment in time, which means JON might diverge from Melisandre's expectations and be better for the world than you guys are giving AA credit for. Or not. Nobody knows.

I really like the idea of savior being guy who has just don't what needs to be doing and truth was lost in later interpretations. Btw I never used evil, I generally stay clear of that, nothing is black and white (except the House of)

I think him being remembered on one hand as BSE, blood magic and slavery tyrant, and AA on the other as savior and bringer of light (magic or maybe both) while he was the same guy who found only way to save some of his people and his civilization, harsh time require harsh measures, would be great.

[Taenqyrhae]

I guess I was confused as to whether you find this theory ludicrous, or worthy of discussion. Since you seemed to find it totally ludicrous, I didn't respond to your comments. You're correct that I misstated the transit of Venus thing; it makes that pattern when viewed from overhead, not from the earth, so I thank you for that correction. It was only a small side detail to the whole Lucifer / Morningstar / Venus / Lightbringer connection, and I was referring to ancient connotations alongside more modern ones, perhaps without adequate clarity as to which is which. I'll look to make that part more clear if and when I do an updated version.

The rest of your objections I have dealt with to the best of my ability already and I just don't have time to repeat myself, especially since you don't seem to find any merit in the general concept of the theory whatsoever.

I think you missed the point of my Lucifer discussion, as we both agree that his association with the Devil is only a recent and basically erroneous association made by Pope Gregory in 600 something AD, and that's he's been viewed as a Morningstar deity for over 4,000 years. I'm sorry you took something else from that. I touched on the warding associations with the "elf cross," or pentacle, but perhaps I should add a bit more there to draw proper context.

I missed this response and apologize for any confusion - my post that you quoted was not directed towards you, it was a response to the person who came into your thread to tell us that my post was too long to read. Apparently some folks think being illiterate is cute.

I don't have anything against you and portions of your theory are interesting, I just wanted to point out the astronomical inaccuracies because it reminded me of other attempts to explain mythology with astronomy that also were based on a flawed understanding.

[J. Stargaryen]

The new sample chapter from Winds contains something that might be relevant to the discussion in here about the number eight. - Link.

Alayne

The competitors came from all over the Vale, from the mountain valleys and the coast, from Gulltown and the Bloody Gate, even the Three Sisters. Though a few were promised, only three were wed; the eight victors would be expected to spend the next three years at Lord Robert’s side, as his own personal guard (Alayne had suggested seven, like the Kingsguard, but Sweetrobin had insisted that he must have more knights than King Tommen), so older men with wives and children had not been invited.

- from the sample chapter.

There is the eight vs. seven theme here. And these eight are meant to guard the Lord of the Vale, whose sigil coincidentally bears a moon and falcon. Emphasis on the "moon" part. ;)

- my comments

[LmL]

Wow I’ve been so busy working on the new theory that I had not heard about the new chapter, I’ll have to go read it... exciting. And already its being analyzed for astronomy - much ha ha ha

I finished Part 3 by the way... it’s all about the Great Empire of the Dawn.

GO READ IT.

Although... it might take a minute or two. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Was just thinking about how bloodstone is supposed to be green spotted with red, and it reminded me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident.