Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Mychel_Redfort]

From Dance 57 :

"I know you as well, my lord," said Tyrion. "You're less purple and more brown than the Plumms at home, but unless your name's a lie, you're a westerman, by blood if not by birth. House Plumm is sworn to Casterly Rock, and as it happens I know a bit of its history. Your branch sprouted from a stone spit across the narrow sea, no doubt. A younger son of Viserys Plumm, I'd wager. The queen's dragons were fond of you, were they not?"

That seemed to amuse the sellsword. "Who told you that?"

"No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

This one has potential... sphinxes with riddles and dragons/meteorites

[Mychel_Redfort]

From the Feast Appendixes :

ALLERAS, called THE SPHINX, an acolyte of three links, a devoted archer,

[LmL]

From Dance 57 :

This one has potential... sphinxes with riddles and dragons/meteorites

More fantastic detective work, Ser Redfort. I also noticed the "hoarding gems" reference in regards to the Gemstone Emperors whom I believe possessed dragons.

[LmL]

From the Feast Appendixes :

The archer thing may be important as well.

[Equilibrium]

Ok, so are there other Sphinx connections to the destroyed moon? The ones in Oldtown are Lion bodies, wings, and serpent's tail, right? With human heads? If that's a sea serpent, we have land, sea, and air. Are those the three impacts? One on land, one in the water, and one exploded in the air like Tunguska?

Yeah we talked about them, Ishtar/Astarte is destroyed moon, and one of the symbols of Astarte is sphinx. So the second destroyed moon is the riddle

[Equilibrium]

This one has potential... sphinxes with riddles and dragons/meteorites

Awesome, because verb "to riddle" has one more meaning "to pierce with numerous holes; perforate"

Sphinx riddled with dragon can mean sphinx (moon) pierced by dragon (comet)

[LmL]

(accidental post)

[LmL]

Awesome, because verb "to riddle" has one more meaning "to pierce with numerous holes; perforate"

Sphinx riddled with dragon can mean sphinx (moon) pierced by dragon (comet)

In the example of Alleras shooting the apples, which represent both the comet and the moon impact, it's the Sphinx "riddling," or piercing, the dragon.

This conversation is tremendous you guys, thanks to everyone here. You guys are some sharp little pencils ;)

[Mychel_Redfort]

But we wouldn't have known what to search without you pointing us in the right direction :-)

Got to go to sleep now, but your last post made me think of a legend involving apples and a hidden astronomical secret, I'll tell you about it tomorrow.

[LmL]

Ooh suspense! I like it. Thanks for your contributions Ser. I was hoping to open the astronomy can of worms - nay, astronomy Pandora's box - in just such a way, so as to make everyone think about all the material they know well from a new perspective. :)

[Voice]

Late to the thread... but wow. On a personal level, I really appreciated the Lucifer section. My mother told me a story when I was no more than 6 about Lucifer being the sun's star, demonized by the church. My uncle filled in a bit more about his descent into the underworld later on. Those were the days before internets, and the school system was just beginning to secularize its curriculum (a process which still isn't complete in the US, in my opinion). I haven't thought much about those stories since I was a kid and that part of the essay really brought back a lot of cool memories. They were really interested in mythology, as was I. My uncle is quite the heretical biblical scholar and likes to point out that Lucifer has been a victim of character assassination. It's made for some interesting family get-togethers over the years as the scholars attempt to educate the holy rollers, usually leading to much drama and debate.

Back to the books though, and your second essay...

While the first installment was hard for me to fully embrace (as the long night may well be eclipse-driven, and I think more records/accounts should exist if there were once two moons), this second essay makes complete sense to me. I was just going to take a peek at it and ended up reading it all the way through.

I've shared Lord Martin's view for some time now that NK=LH. I also believe he is the same man as Bran the Builder. We had a nice conversation about this in heresy a little while ago.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

So, rather than being the good guy or the bad guy, I think the Last Hero was both. Rising with the dawn, "man by day" in Old Nan's account, he was the good, long-faced, Hero of Stark, building his Wall. But then, he ushered in Darkness itself, "ruling at night" in Old Nan's account, as Venus descended in the dusk sky.

I think this passage above hints at Night's King having split personality disorder, as does your essay. The Oath of the Night's Watch suggests that the Watch predates the Wall itself (I am the watcher on the walls - 'walls'...lowercase and plural). Brandon is said to have formed the Night's Watch and built the Wall. If he was working on construction by day, and formed the Watch with his 12 buddies, and appointed them to lead before he took the rule, this all starts to add up. This also fits in nicely with the 12 houses of heaven, the 12 constellations of the zodiac, and the journey of Venus, the Lightbringer, through them... Twelve and One.

Then, there is the pale woman he "glimpsed." Might this be the moon? And/or her earthly counterpart? As mentioned in the last thread, a new moon can only be "glimpsed" in sun's vicinity from our vantage point. It is common to see Lucifer in their company, either just before dawn, or just after dusk :)

I can ramble on forever about this stuff, so I'll stop here so as not to consume the page ;)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

So, rather than being the good guy or the bad guy, I think the Last Hero was both. Rising with the dawn, "man by day" in Old Nan's account, he was the good, long-faced, Hero of Stark, building his Wall. But then, he ushered in Darkness itself, "ruling at night" in Old Nan's account, as Venus descended in the dusk sky.

The quintessential werewolf. That quote makes the Direwolf house sigil of House Stark even more fitting.

[Voice]

Indeed it does ;)

Another play on a trope. The pale woman (moon) turns the man into a magical menace. Then there's the idea of the pale woman being NK's direwolf herself :devil:

[LmL]

Appreciate your comments VOTFM. If you read back over the last four pages where we discuss the concept of "the seven" having originally been "the eight" if there used to be two moons. And lo and behold, there are a LOT of textual examples of a group of eight becoming seven, which dither corroborate the truthfulness of the Quarthine tale of the second moon.

[LmL]

And for what it's worth VOTFM, I am pretty sure the moons were in eclipse formation when the comet struck the second moon.

[LmL]

Late to the thread... but wow. On a personal level, I really appreciated the Lucifer section. My mother told me a story when I was no more than 6 about Lucifer being the sun's star, demonized by the church. My uncle filled in a bit more about his descent into the underworld later on. Those were the days before internets, and the school system was just beginning to secularize its curriculum (a process which still isn't complete in the US, in my opinion). I haven't thought much about those stories since I was a kid and that part of the essay really brought back a lot of cool memories. They were really interested in mythology, as was I. My uncle is quite the heretical biblical scholar and likes to point out that Lucifer has been a victim of character assassination. It's made for some interesting family get-togethers over the years as the scholars attempt to educate the holy rollers, usually leading to much drama and debate.

Hey thanks a lot Voice of the First Men, that really mean a lot that you got something out of that. If was very personally meaningful for me to really learn about the broader context of mytholgy which the Bible fits into. With any spiritual writing or teaching, you really have to separate the book from the people interpreting it - the religion itself vs those who claim to represent it, in order to have a balanced view. Every popular strain of philosophy or religion has some amount of validity to it, or else thousands and millions of people wouldn't find it meaningful, and that's important to remember even as we sift through fiction and fable to trace the earliest version of a story of archetype. Jesus, for example, at least the Jesus character that has been created collectively throughout the years, has so many characteristics in common with Osiris that it's not even funny... and Osiris predates Jesus by several thousand years. But a devout Christian should be able to understand that and still not have it invalidate their religious beliefs - because it's message, the teaching itself, that is important - the way it makes people act. The fruit that the tree bears, to borrow another great Bible verse.

To me, the true religion is love - Jesus said as much - and people can "worship god" by any name, or no name at all, simply by practicing and spreading love. That's my belief, anyway. It feels liberating, because I feel free to recognize and absorb wisdom in all sorts of places, from any direction, and practicing love makes you feel fully alive in a way nothing else can.

Anyways, I'm very very glad you enjoyed that part. It was originally first, but I moved it back so as to have pure ASOIAF material up front... Anytime you bring in outside material, there's a risk of rejection, but I think George drew inspiration from this for a reason. Thanks a lot for sharing you own story, I got a lot out of it. Cheers.

Back to the books though, and your second essay...

While the first installment was hard for me to fully embrace (as the long night may well be eclipse-driven, and I think more records/accounts should exist if there were once two moons), this second essay makes complete sense to me. I was just going to take a peek at it and ended up reading it all the way through.

I've shared Lord Martin's view for some time now that NK=LH. I also believe he is the same man as Bran the Builder. We had a nice conversation about this in heresy a little while ago.

Some say he was a Bolton, Old Nan would always end. Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down. She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.

[...]

Nights King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

So, rather than being the good guy or the bad guy, I think the Last Hero was both. Rising with the dawn, "man by day" in Old Nan's account, he was the good, long-faced, Hero of Stark, building his Wall. But then, he ushered in Darkness itself, "ruling at night" in Old Nan's account, as Venus descended in the dusk sky.

I think this passage above hints at Night's King having split personality disorder, as does your essay. The Oath of the Night's Watch suggests that the Watch predates the Wall itself (I am the watcher on the walls - 'walls'...lowercase and plural). Brandon is said to have formed the Night's Watch and built the Wall. If he was working on construction by day, and formed the Watch with his 12 buddies, and appointed them to lead before he took the rule, this all starts to add up. This also fits in nicely with the 12 houses of heaven, the 12 constellations of the zodiac, and the journey of Venus, the Lightbringer, through them... Twelve and One.

I think I read that thread and I'm pretty down with most of that. At least, I agree with your reasoning regarding the 13th commander being a nod to the 12 dead companions of the LH. I personally belive - and this might seem like a leap, but here goes - the NIGHT's King was King during the Long NIGHT. I know, I know, it's counterintuitive that someone named the Night's King would have been powerful during the Long Night, but hey, there it is. I like your idea that he may have had a complex arc... I personally think his sacrificing his children to the Others like Craster may well have been part of a pact with the Others that was needed to stop the LN, and that this may have been a sacrificial act. Thematically, I see murder and betrayal on one side, and opposite, we have sacrifice and procreation. The blood betrayal was murder and betrayal, and it is associated with the cause of the Long Night. The NK was sacrificing himself, being drained of his vitality in order to.. procreate. So. That tells me that thematically, he may have been part of the solution.

I actually think he was a bad guy BEFORE he became the NK, and the sacrificial pact he kept up for 13 years was his redemption in death... Similar to the way Theon's arc is going. Life of bad choices, then... a noble death at the end. Anyway, just my thoughts there. I definitely think some of these different characters from the Dawn Age may be the same person. I'm thinking a lot about who the Bloodstone Emperor might have been known as when he came to a Westeros with his Lightbringer sword during the Long Night and fought the battle at Batlle Isle. At least, that's what I think happened. Garth was involved, the original sacrificial bull to brings the spring. The Grey King is a player. Plus some Brandon Stark, maybe the Barrow King, NIghts King, etc.

Then, there is the pale woman he "glimpsed." Might this be the moon? And/or her earthly counterpart? As mentioned in the last thread, a new moon can only be "glimpsed" in sun's vicinity from our vantage point. It is common to see Lucifer in their company, either just before dawn, or just after dusk :)

I can ramble on forever about this stuff, so I'll stop here so as not to consume the page ;)

Hey that's all right on as far as I am concerned. I see the astronomical correlation for the "12 dead companions" of the Last a Hero as being the 12 zodiacal constellations. During the cloud cover of the Long Nigh, whoever the celestial Last Hero was (Ice Dragon? The remaining Moon? Orion, the Hunter, who straddles the ecliptic like a master of the 12?), he would have appeared "cut off" and "isolated" from his companions, the 12 constellations. Anyway, the Night's Queen could certainly be the surviving moon. That makes a deal of sense.

Thanks for your comments and more would be welcomed. You will accept comet theory sooner or later.

Haha Jk.

[Voice]

Appreciate your comments VOTFM. If you read back over the last four pages where we discuss the concept of "the seven" having originally been "the eight" if there used to be two moons. And lo and behold, there are a LOT of textual examples of a group of eight becoming seven, which dither corroborate the truthfulness of the Quarthine tale of the second moon.

I'll have a look but don't have much to add on that front. Honestly, before the discussion in the last thread, I, like others, always imagined the long night's sky being cold, stormy, and full of snowflakes and snow clouds. Quite fitting for a nuclear winter type of scenario, and for an author who has lived through the cold war and the revelation of climate change. I've argued the parallels myself many times.

But now, after the conversation in the last thread, I'm more inclined to think the sun alone was hidden, rather than the whole sky.

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

It seems unlikely that the Others, with eyes like bright blue stars, would first come when there were no stars visible in the sky. They seem to embody the deep cold and starlight of winter. It seems like the northern lights would be visible as well, if only because Bran glimpsed their refuge behind them.

So those images were weighing on me. And after digging into some etymology last thread, it now seems far more likely that rather than a nuclear fallout-style cloudy sky, the sun hiding its face was a solar eclipse.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on that point, but I can't say enough good about the essays. The Lucifer portion, in particular, is incredibly strong and conjures many cool scenarios and possibilities.

[Voice]

I think I read that thread and I'm pretty down with most of that. At least, I agree with your reasoning regarding the 13th commander being a nod to the 12 dead companions of the LH. I personally belive - and this might seem like a leap, but here goes - the NIGHT's King was King during the Long NIGHT. I know, I know, it's counterintuitive that someone named the Night's King would have been powerful during the Long Night, but hey, there it is. I like your idea that he may have had a complex arc... I personally think his sacrificing his children to the Others like Craster may well have been part of a pact with the Others that was needed to stop the LN,

Great points all, but I snipped it down to save some space on the page here. I like comet theory, and the effort to bring Qartheen/Essosi lore into the fold. I make no absolute claims, but I'm liking the eclipse angle more right now.

And yes, even the official timeline places the reign of Night's King during the long night, rather than after. For some reason people tend to think of him as a separate story, but his is the story of the long night itself. His downfall ended the long night, which is quite telling.

[Cat of the First Men]

But now, after the conversation in the last thread, I'm more inclined to think the sun alone was hidden, rather than the whole sky.

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

It seems unlikely that the Others, with eyes like bright blue stars, would first come when there were no stars visible in the sky. They seem to embody the deep cold and starlight of winter. It seems like the northern lights would be visible as well, if only because Bran glimpsed their refuge behind them.

So those images were weighing on me. And after digging into some etymology last thread, it now seems far more likely that rather than a nuclear fallout-style cloudy sky, the sun hiding its face was a solar eclipse.

Amazing thread Lucifer Means Lightbringer. So much to think about. Even now including The Night's King being King during the Long Night!

From Lucifer Means Lightbringer, Voice of the First Men and others,

We now have two possible astronomical origins of the Long Night.

1) Planetos is hit by fragments of its second moon. So much debris is thrown into the atmosphere that the sky is hidden for a whole generation.

2) Planetos is in an eclipse for years at a time. Stars and the moon are still visible.

Old Nan & sources in Yi Ti talk about the sun (or sun-god) hiding for years at a time.

If you imagine an eclipse on Planetos, it would require another planet (or the moon) to remain between Planetos and the sun for years and years at a time. Eclipses are usually very local, too & we know that the Long Night covered at least Westeros and Essos. I think a more likely explanation for a long night with stars and moon is that Westeros and Essos face away from the sun for all those years. Literally a long night. The night could have occured if Planetos stopped spinning at a time when Westeros and Essos were facing away from the sun. This link on Venus' spin indicates it could be possible http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-venus-spins-the-wrong/%C2'>

In summary:

Planetos sustains an impact which changes its orbit and spin, causing the Long Night. The long Night ends when Planetos starts spinning on an axis more perpendicular to the direction of the sun again. The Long Night could have finished after another impact changed its rotation or simply because the long Night was an unstable state (see the Venus reference). When the Long Night finishes, it is followed by irregular seasons, because Planetos' axis of rotation still wobbles - the rotation is still unstable as Planetos is not a perfect sphere with all its mass evenly distributed.

Are there any references to seeing the stars and moon during the long night?

[Cat of the First Men]

Just re-read the OP from part 1, which proposes that the irregular seasons are due to wobble of Planetos on its axis due to the loss of the second moon. Sorry for the part repetition. My additions in the post above are only a small expansion on the OP. The OP way ahead again, although wobbling of the axis of rotation if its going to happen long term would have happened as soon as the moon fragments hit Planetos. Planetos could have doubly been in darkness. Once due to the debris and secondly due to the added mass of the second moon on the planet and its loss from orbit.