"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[The silver dragon]

Do you have evidence she went willingly?

The evidence we have is grrms quote about arranged marriage.

1.) the fact that lyanna was a teenager full of hormones, and Rhaegar was quite possible the most sexy motherfucker on the planet.

being magnitudes sexier than jamie, who was "Half and god,and half a corpse" even after he had been malnourished and had dirt all over him.

2.) rhaegar's not a stable boy,

[John Doe]

I don't think grrm meant only stable boys. In this case, running away with a farmer would be okay too, and I doubt it would.

[Poorboy78]

1.) the fact that lyanna was a teenager full of hormones, and Rhaegar was quite possible the most sexy motherfucker on the planet.

being magnitudes sexier than jamie, who was "Half and god,and half a corpse" even after he had been malnourished and had dirt all over him.

2.) rhaegar's not a stable boy,

I was of the mind that she went willingly until I actually started going through GRRM interviews and appearances. The one thing he always always ALWAYS harp on is that he dislike common fantasy tropes. To him , (maybe arrogant who knows), Tolkien was the best and everyone else are pretenders. They follow the same formula and GRRM said he take great pleasure in breaking those common tropes set up. So what can be more common then a perfect pretty boy prince that can fight, is smart, educated, rich, PRINCE and Future King of the Kingdom, falling for a wild, untame beauty who is clearly unhappy with her marriage and whisked her away romantically but only to be kept separated due to their families.

A forbidden love that could never be! How tragic and... CLICHE!

Something that GRRM profess to hate.

What if under that pretty boy exterior there is a darkness? Remember in the modern world where murder, rape or pedophilia comes as a shock when people that are upstanding members of society are convicted of said crime. Rhaegar could have told her to leave with him, and being 14-15, she was taught the royal family hold absolute power, so she meekly follows. She cannot say no, and there are no rights or any 911 she could have called. The highest ranking member of the gov, like say the VP shows up at your house armed with two U.S General telling you. "Get in the car now, it's a matter of national security." ...YOu go.

And of course everyone that is respectable goes ... "He's such a nice man, I don't think he'd have it in him to do that."

Yet sometime, the shittiest people in the world could be the one that surprises you with good deed and how they changed. Like a young bully in school meeting the right person falling in love and maybe changed his way. Who knows.

I do agree that she might have left willingly but only because she could not say no. The prince tell you to come with him, You go.

She was then isolated in a tower until she saw Ned coming, hence the scream of Ned from atop of the tower.

[Jojen Weed]

Because it doesn't really matter if she went willingly or not, she was betrothed to Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna both insulted Robert and their families by running away.

[Nami]

I was of the mind that she went willingly until I actually started going through GRRM interviews and appearances. The one thing he always always ALWAYS harp on is that he dislike common fantasy tropes. To him , (maybe arrogant who knows), Tolkien was the best and everyone else are pretenders. They follow the same formula and GRRM said he take great pleasure in breaking those common tropes set up. So what can be more common then a perfect pretty boy prince that can fight, is smart, educated, rich, PRINCE and Future King of the Kingdom, falling for a wild, untame beauty who is clearly unhappy with her marriage and whisked her away romantically but only to be kept separated due to their families.

A forbidden love that could never be! How tragic and... CLICHE!

Something that GRRM profess to hate.

What if under that pretty boy exterior there is a darkness? Remember in the modern world where murder, rape or pedophilia comes as a shock when people that are upstanding members of society are convicted of said crime. Rhaegar could have told her to leave with him, and being 14-15, she was taught the royal family hold absolute power, so she meekly follows. She cannot say no, and there are no rights or any 911 she could have called. The highest ranking member of the gov, like say the VP shows up at your house armed with two U.S General telling you. "Get in the car now, it's a matter of national security." ...YOu go.

And of course everyone that is respectable goes ... "He's such a nice man, I don't think he'd have it in him to do that."

Yet sometime, the shittiest people in the world could be the one that surprises you with good deed and how they changed. Like a young bully in school meeting the right person falling in love and maybe changed his way. Who knows.

I do agree that she might have left willingly but only because she could not say no. The prince tell you to come with him, You go.

She was then isolated in a tower until she saw Ned coming, hence the scream of Ned from atop of the tower.

You haven't noticed that GRRM is a romantic? ASOIAF is full of little cliche moments. Duncan and Jenny is a romantic story, very romantic. He chose a peasant over the crown. How cliche right?

Rhaegar Targaryen didn't have a reputation of a rapist. For the people who actually knew him he was very nice and dutiful. To imagine him go totally ballistic and "fuck you all I'm gonna kidnap this noblewoman and rape her oh yeah!" it's ridiculous and completely out of character and you're pretty much ignoring several POVs but not Robert's bitter version.

If we actually go by what the characters said about these two people they knew, it's most likely that Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar. lol

[JonCon's Red Beard]

For those who don't like the "cliche", rather than being a rapist, I think it's more likely Jon is an "happy" accident". Rhaegar is described and hinted as a calculating guy, who had been planning to remove his father for almost a year and tried to fulfil a prophecy since he was a child. And then, he met Lyanna, had sex with her and BSOD'ed when he realised she was pregnant. Probably the only "wtf what have I done" moment of his life. We would be seeing a Robb/Jeyne situation, something Jon could eventually understood as he would realise he did the right thing, and it costed both their lives.

[Stag_legion]

Wasn't robert supposedly better looking than rhaegar in his youth? he is said to have looked really similar to renly who is considered the most handsome man in westeros.

[NorthGirl]

Because it doesn't really matter if she went willingly or not, she was betrothed to Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna both insulted Robert and their families by running away.

This statement doesn't make sense. IF she went willingly, she ran away and insulted Robert / the fam. If she went unwillingly, she was kidnapped and only Rhaegar insulted Robert / the fam and her on top of it. If you're assuming she ran away, then she was willing. If we don't which; then it matters because she might have not wanted to.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wasn't robert supposedly better looking than rhaegar in his youth? he is said to have looked really similar to renly who is considered the most handsome man in westeros.

Robert was good looking but Rhaegar was the one who made men, women and griffins all swoon alike.

[John Doe]

Rhaegar is described and hinted as a calculating guy,

Where.

He never managed to usurp his father, instead he pretty much started a war that dethroned his dynasty because of his rash decisions. He humilated his queen in front of pretty much everone because he had to make Lyanna his "queen". Very well though out indeed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Where.

He never managed to usurp his father, instead he pretty much started a war that dethroned his dynasty because of his rash decisions.

He completely changed his life when he read about the prophecy and he was, what? 12?. He then tried to fulfil it for the rest of his life. That's compromising. He was also described at being good at everything he tried, even if he didn't like it. That shows the guy was disciplined and took his role as Prince very seriously. And, if you believe that the real reason he left Dragonstone was for rallying Lords to his cause, then he was willingly to spend hiding in some shitty tower for who knows how time. Can you imagine Joffrey or any other Prince so devoted to his own cause? Dany, maybe.

The one thing that breaks the mold is his behaviour about Lyanna. He seemed to have thrown all of his precaution aside because of her. So what if he did? The guy wasn't perfect, no matter how much he could have tried :dunno:

[NorthGirl]

Then finally we have Lyanna who have modern day values that resonate with the readers" Love is sweet ned but it cannot change a man nature." Obviously if Lyanna said this, it should be fact and apply across the board yet... in the book. It's all about changing one's nature. Take for example. Sansa, her nature is to be sweet dociles etc etc. She changed it. Look at Arya, she tom boyish and love family, she is now No-One and changed her nature. Look at Jon, complete bastard broke his vow and oath twice, he is known to be honorable yet he still did it. Ned was force to change his nature at sword point and declare himself a traitor before his head was lobbed off. Honorable Robb nature changed when he knowinly dishonored the Frey. The nature of westeros to always honor the "Guest Rights" was shoved out the window when they Red Wedding-ed Robb.

That is not a modern value at all. She is basically saying that it won't matter if Robert loves her or not, he will continue to sleep with other women. That's the opposite of modern value where fidelity and monogamy are expected on both sides of the union and love is supposed to factor in the success of a marriage. Lyanna is saying the opposite here, marital success doesn't hinge on love and Robert is not expected to stay faithful.

Can you explain to me how you interpreted that quote. What did you think she was saying? To me, she was telling Ned to stop sugar coating it and try to sell Robert's "love" when it didn't matter, he would never change and she didn't expect him to. Like you said, the problem was Robert's nature, not his love for her. The idea was that love can not change a person's nature. Not that a person's nature can't change ever for any reason.

Even if "one's nature can't be changed" was the point being made, I don't believe any of your example are true.

Sansa only acted sweet and docile, her thoughts were sometimes pretty mean even back in AGOT. Arya still loves her family and continues to break character and go back to Arya mode. Jon committed two acts in his entire life and that means his nature changed? Also, his mission was to go to the wildlings and do anything to fit in. Technically, he was carrying out his duty with Ygritte. He just happened to enjoy it very much. The second time, he was rescuing his baby sister from a maniac who threatened the Watch, how is that dishonourable? Ned saying he's a traitor when he's not is not him changing his nature, it's him changing the perception of it. He was also sacrificing his reputation for his girls' lives, that's nobility at its prime. The RW is considered bad juju by anyone which is why half the RL are waiting to stab the Freys in the eye. The North's outrage is because of the disgusting nature of RW not just that their leader died or was betrayed so Westeros' nature didn't change, but RW did make everyone cautious because of how shocking it was. If the customs had changed that much, people would simply abolish the Guest Right and not care anymore, instead of just thinking that they can't count on others' respect of it.

[Stag_legion]

Robert was good looking but Rhaegar was the one who made men, women and griffins all swoon alike.

I m skeptical about that. I m skeptical about targaryen attractiveness in general. I think lots of people just say they are attractive because they look exotic.

If targaryen looking people lived in the real world I think their appeal would wear out after a while. They actually look semi albino which isn't the hottest thing around.

Back to the point. Skinny semi effeminate white haired dude with violet eyes vs buff black haired blue eyed really manly looking dude. I think robert wins.

Here you go a real life targaryen, interesting looking but not the beauty people claim in my opinion :P

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/b3/35/47b335a5e9cf94b04880c22c7bc42091.jpg

[Nami]

Wasn't robert supposedly better looking than rhaegar in his youth? he is said to have looked really similar to renly who is considered the most handsome man in westeros.

Robert was described as very handsome. Rhaegar was almost a god.

Did you see his illustration in AWOIAF? Based off Chris Hemsworth, it seems.

[John Doe]

He completely changed his life when he read about the prophecy and he was, what? 12?. He then tried to fulfil it for the rest of his life. That's compromising. He was also described at being good at everything he tried, even if he didn't like it. That shows the guy was disciplined and took his role as Prince very seriously. And, if you believe that the real reason he left Dragonstone was for rallying Lords to his cause, then he was willingly to spend hiding in some shitty tower for who knows how time. Can you imagine Joffrey or any other Prince so devoted to his own cause? Dany, maybe.

A guy who completely changes his live after reading one "prophecy" in a book doesn't strike me as the calculating type of guy. Similar actions would make Aeron very calculating too.

[Nami]

Skinny semi effeminate white haired dude with violet eyes vs buff black haired blue eyed really manly looking dude. I think robert wins.

lol You think he was an elf or something?

No where Rhaegar was described as skinny or effeminate.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Back to the point. Skinny semi effeminate white haired dude with violet eyes vs buff black haired blue eyed really manly looking dude. I think robert wins.

The Baratheon look is what I actually like in men. Dark hair and light colour eyes does it for me. But, in text, we're supposed to believe that not even the handsomest of the Baratheons was a match for a Targaryen, so, in universe, very much every other lady would have wanted Rhaegar instead.

There is also the thing about Rhaegar being a Prince Charming type while Robert was all "aaarrr. bring me the whore and the wineeeeee....*burp*!!!". That's a downer for me. It looks it was for Lyanna too.

[Poorboy78]

You haven't noticed that GRRM is a romantic? ASOIAF is full of little cliche moments. Duncan and Jenny is a romantic story, very romantic. He chose a peasant over the crown. How cliche right?

Rhaegar Targaryen didn't have a reputation of a rapist. For the people who actually knew him he was very nice and dutiful. To imagine him go totally ballistic and "fuck you all I'm gonna kidnap this noblewoman and rape her oh yeah!" it's ridiculous and completely out of character and you're pretty much ignoring several POVs but not Robert's bitter version.

If we actually go by what the characters said about these two people they knew, it's most likely that Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar. lol

Actually Duncan and Jenny is a typical love story told to the Westeros kids like a fairy tale. Just like how we learn fairy tales like Snow White and Cinderella. It happened in the book yes but all of the cliche he wrote in the book is really part of the set up for the actual 'reality' of what is going on.

Like Sansa learn, there are no heroes, only monsters.

Like I say, Rhaegar Targaryen does not have a reputation of a rapist true, but so do most non rapist until they actually do the deed. Remember, many upstanding member of society who are convinced of a crime , really shock their community. Priest and altar boys being another. They never expected it to happen.

Like I say, I think analyzing GRRM habit. He made us hate Robert on purpose so that we will discard EVERYTHING robert said. Then he have all the white knight characters vouch for Rhaegar integrity so that we would accept that as fact. It's really quite brilliant if that is the red herring all along.

So what if our hero was a rape baby in Jon Snow? How often does that happen instead of "He is the chosen hero who was conceived in love."

[John Doe]

There is also the thing about Rhaegar being a Prince Charming type while Robert was all "aaarrr. bring me the whore and the wineeeeee....*burp*!!!". That's a downer for me. It looks it was for Lyanna too.

People are indeed superficial.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A guy who completely changes his live after reading one "prophecy" in a book doesn't strike me as the calculating type of guy. Similar actions would make Aeron very calculating too.

It proves that Rhaegar always did was it was expected of him, whether his father's orders of a prophecy.

Don't dismiss his belief on prophecies so easily. The Targaryens do have the ability to see the future via dreams and have visions. Why would he dismiss that considering it was a dream what saved his whole family from being killed in the Doom?

Robert was described as very handsome. Rhaegar was almost a god.

Did you see his illustration in AWOIAF? Based off Chris Hemsworth, it seems.

Aye. After TWOIAF, Rhaegars looks like "before Chris Hemsworth" to me. Fit but not as bulky as his Nordic God persona. So, thanks a lot Robert for killing an intellectual and musical inclined angel faced Thor...