"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[Nami]

wait wait wait wait... who said Lyanna had "modern day values"? GRRM definitely did not. In fact, he said something along the lines of how he hates the trope of the noble lady running carelessly with a lesser man and refusing her marriage for the sake of her own happiness because it's not realistic and mostly noble ladies did their duties.

As far as we know, Lyanna was ok with marrying Robert and being miserable for the rest of her life until she met Rhaegar in the Riverlands and they started an affair. That definitely makes more sense than her simply saying "fuck my marriage" because that would hurt her family. But an unplanned situation for both L and R in which they realised they liked each other and she ended up pregnant fits more the chaotic situation GRRM puts his characters into it.

He said that? Where can I find this interview?

I agree with you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Respectful to Women thus far? Rhaegar

hahahahahahahahhahahaha

Sure. Single Robert sleeping with single women is less respectful to women than recently married Rhaegar cheating on his ill wife.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The realm would know if their prince was a whore and had a bunch of mistresses.

That's the point.

Robert was known to whore around, Rhaegar wasn't.

No they wouldn't.

Tywin proved that you can keep whoring a secret.

There is no Westerosi paparazzi following Rhaegar around. He may have been a bit more discreet than the unmarried Robert.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He said that? Where can I find this interview?

I agree with you.

here

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

[Petyr Patter]

It didn't matter. The war was not fought over Lyanna's abduction.

The war was fought over Aerys's breach of the social contract, culminating in the murder of a Lord Paramount and his heir without trial.

For Eddard and Robert, there were only two choices, rebel or die. For the Honorable Jon Arryn, there was only one choice, rebel.

I'm sure the thought of Lyanna helped motivate Robert, but the war would have gone on anyways even if Lyanna showed up at the war camp and begged them to stand down.

[Poorboy78]

s far as we know, Lyanna was ok with marrying Robert and being miserable for the rest of her life until she met Rhaegar in the Riverlands and they started an affair. That definitely makes more sense than her simply saying "fuck my marriage" because that would hurt her family. But an unplanned situation for both L and R in which they realised they liked each other and she ended up pregnant fits more the chaotic situation GRRM puts his characters into it.

That in itself is a fantasy trope too. Oh it was romeo and juliet. Stuff happens, they never meant for it to happen. Kind of like Lyanna going "Damn you Rhaegar, I never planned on you conquering my heart." That sort of deal. That cheese.

It didn't matter. The war was not fought over Lyanna's abduction.

Yes it was, without Lyanna, the spark would have never been lit. Aerys could have lived and died , sure more people would have died but they weren't gonna rebel because everyone saw Rhaegar and he's a good future king.

If it had been Catelynn? No spark.

If it had been Cersei? No spark, in fact Cersei might have even welcome it and Tywin would be all for it.

If it had been a Tyrell? Doubtful, they were loyal the whole way. Though now it would just be Dorne vs Tyrell.

It had to be Lyanna.

hahahahahahahahhahahaha

Sure. Single Robert sleeping with single women is less respectful to women than recently married Rhaegar cheating on his ill wife.

Yet, Rhaegar haven't tough any other girl but his wife as far as we know. While Robert is a well known whorer.

[The silver dragon]

A Dragon, and i don't know if Martin's dragons are as strong as Tolkien's, cannot fire from all fronts and with great distance as to avoid arrows, i was not talking about archers facing a dragon eye to eye... think of it as rangers, hide and shoot poisoned arrows (unless those 3 dragons were arrow proof)...

No matter how much mail Aegon would use, a rain of arrows would hit him 100% if by your account he was attacking armies by himself and his sisters, 3 dragons cannot burn a well dispatched army of thousands, unless they are piled together, the dragon riders would be hit by a multiple positioned army shooting from various fronts...

There´s a reason Aegon had Orys and his ground troops, if he didn´t need them he wouldn't use them, wasting resources and all...

Burning a castle can be done by hit and run with Balerion, but facing a well organized army of thousands 3 dragons are only effective if they have an army by their side to spread atention and confuse the opponent's tactics...

Give any medieval commander an army of 20,000 and say to him he needs to kill 3 dragon riders who are attacking them and only a specialist in failure would not win, again no one would put an army all together in front of 3 dragons if said dragons had no backup (orys and his troops)

Even if Martin's dragons were like Tolkien´s, aegon and his sisters were not immune to multiple arrow hits from all flanks...

Why would Aegon send an army to storm's end with a dragon, or even have one (army) if he didn´t need it?

1.) i don't know how many times i have to say this, but any dragon above the age of 40 is most deftly arrow proof.

" Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was, and her dragon, Meleys, the Red Queen, arrived above Rook's Rest to aid Lord Staunton. However, Criston was prepared and had his archers and scorpions fire at Meleys. The dragon was largely unharmed by these attacks, and she responded by burning Criston's soldiers with dragonfire."

2.) arrows don't pierce good armor period. arrows bounce of plate armor. the amount of arrows fired does not change that simple fact.

3.) by the time aegon deployed his dragons on the field of fire, his army had already been routed. his three dragons still proceed to win that engagement without them.

4,) that medieval commander is totally screwed.

"medieval commader used arrow volley"

"it's totally ineffective"

"aegon used locate and dive bomb enemy commander"

(he located and dive boomed harren sons after the walling woods, he located and dive bombed mern gardener=aegon good at killing the enemy commanders)

" it's super effective, enemy army is now confused"

"enemy used pray to god, it missed"

"aegon used burn them, burn them all"

"enemy army has fainted"

[Lord Sapna]

Elia was pregnant during Harrenhal? I don't remember this in the books.

I don't really consider bedding only one other woman besides his wife as "sleep around".

So if your partner ran off and bedded another that would not be sleeping around.

[LordStoneheart]

hahahahahahahahhahahaha

Sure. Single Robert sleeping with single women is less respectful to women than recently married Rhaegar cheating on his ill wife.

Depending on the truth of the matter, it wouldn't really be considered cheating. Aegon I didn't "cheat" on Visenya with Rhaenys.

[LordStoneheart]

here

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

But Rhaegar isn't a stable boy.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Depending on the truth of the matter, it wouldn't really be considered cheating. Aegon I didn't "cheat" on Visenya with Rhaenys.

Sure. That could be the truth, it could also be the truth that he kidnapped and held a 14 year old girl betrothed to his cousin captive and raped her against her will. We just dont know the truth.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle but i can see why some would want to believe that it was a fairy tale with Rhaegar having permission from his wife who had just given birth to his son.

[Crippledtank]

That in itself is a fantasy trope too. Oh it was romeo and juliet. Stuff happens, they never meant for it to happen. Kind of like Lyanna going "Damn you Rhaegar, I never planned on you conquering my heart." That sort of deal. That cheese.

Yes it was, without Lyanna, the spark would have never been lit. Aerys could have lived and died , sure more people would have died but they weren't gonna rebel because everyone saw Rhaegar and he's a good future king.

If it had been Catelynn? No spark.

If it had been Cersei? No spark, in fact Cersei might have even welcome it and Tywin would be all for it.

If it had been a Tyrell? Doubtful, they were loyal the whole way. Though now it would just be Dorne vs Tyrell.

It had to be Lyanna.

Yet, Rhaegar haven't tough any other girl but his wife as far as we know. While Robert is a well known whorer.

An unwedded man who whored isn't a big deal in westeros, (if he were married than it all changes)

Fact is if anyone can say Robert whoring is worse than Rhaegar having an affair then clearly it's no point having a discussion.

It wasn't that lyanna was abducted it's what happened because of her abduction. Rhaegar ran off with a women who had direct ties to 2 LPs who had ties to 2 other LPs therefore rhaegars actions weren't well thought out.

The rebellion started because aerys MURDURED an LP and his heir and demanded the death of 2 other LPs

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

1.) i don't know how many times i have to say this, but any dragon above the age of 40 is most deftly arrow proof.

" Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was, and her dragon, Meleys, the Red Queen, arrived above Rook's Rest to aid Lord Staunton. However, Criston was prepared and had his archers and scorpions fire at Meleys. The dragon was largely unharmed by these attacks, and she responded by burning Criston's soldiers with dragonfire."

2.) arrows don't pierce good armor period. arrows bounce of plate armor. the amount of arrows fired does not change that simple fact.

3.) by the time aegon deployed his dragons on the field of fire, his army had already been routed. his three dragons still proceed to win that engagement without them.

4,) that medieval commander is totally screwed.

"medieval commader used arrow volley"

"it's totally ineffective"

"aegon used locate and dive bomb enemy commander"

(he located and dive boomed harren sons after the walling woods, he located and dive bombed mern gardener=aegon good at killing the enemy commanders)

" it's super effective, enemy army is now confused"

"enemy used pray to god, it missed"

"aegon used burn them, burn them all"

"enemy army has fainted"

I´ve already said that i didn´t knew the level of resistance of Martin´s dragons, let alone it variates from age... so thanks for the info

As we're getting off topic already i'm not going into a piece of history in my land that explains the tactic to kill plate armoured soldiers with specific arrow heads and diverse archers position and reallocation, and obviously it would be difficult for Martin to know about it and put that into his story

But even if arrows could not do it and Aegon had plate all over his body, he and his sisters tended to land the dragons in battle aswell, so using nets to trap them for a time is also possible (this of course if Aegon doesn´t have an army to back him up)... Barristan notes the wings are pretty damageable, the dragon would have multiple soldiers piercing his wings and eyes (with poison weapons aswell) in a suicidal way

But let us go back to the point of Aegon´s need of Orys and a ground army...

Why waste resources on an army, and why the Last Storm battle with Orys's army and Meraxes if 3 dragons were enough to conquer Westeros?

Edit: I'm getting way off topic just to say that in Aegon´s own mind Orys was fundamental... his stalwart, shield and strong right hand means he was far from unimportant in the conquest and after it...

[Crippledtank]

Depending on the truth of the matter, it wouldn't really be considered cheating. Aegon I didn't "cheat" on Visenya with Rhaenys.

Yer this would be fine... Except there is no way dorne would accept this. True aegon would be rhaegars legal heir but any offspring via lyanna will really endanger dornes future connection to the throne. And with stak having ties to baratheon and the vale the offspring of R AND L would he a strong support base for the throne.

[Crippledtank]

I´ve already said that i didn´t knew the level of resistance of Martin´s dragons, let alone it variates from age... so thanks for the info

As we're getting off topic already i'm not going into a piece of history in my land that explains the tactic to kill plate armoured soldiers with specific arrow heads and diverse archers position and reallocation, and obviously it would be difficult for Martin to know about it and put that into his story

But even if arrows could not do it and Aegon had plate all over his body, he and his sisters tended to land the dragons in battle aswell, so using nets to trap them for a time is also possible (this of course if Aegon doesn´t have an army to back him up)... Barristan notes the wings are pretty damageable, the dragon would have multiple soldiers piercing his wings and eyes (with poison weapons aswell) in a suicidal way

But let us go back to the point of Aegon´s need of Orys and a ground army...

Why waste resources on an army, and why the Last Storm battle with Orys's army and Meraxes if 3 dragons were enough to conquer Westeros?

3 dragons would we able to win most battles without ground troops

Who it their right mind would go within shot range of a dragon???

The main reason orys and his ground troops were needed were for consolidating power and garrisoning and taking castles..

[Crippledtank]

I´ve already said that i didn´t knew the level of resistance of Martin´s dragons, let alone it variates from age... so thanks for the info

As we're getting off topic already i'm not going into a piece of history in my land that explains the tactic to kill plate armoured soldiers with specific arrow heads and diverse archers position and reallocation, and obviously it would be difficult for Martin to know about it and put that into his story

But even if arrows could not do it and Aegon had plate all over his body, he and his sisters tended to land the dragons in battle aswell, so using nets to trap them for a time is also possible (this of course if Aegon doesn´t have an army to back him up)... Barristan notes the wings are pretty damageable, the dragon would have multiple soldiers piercing his wings and eyes (with poison weapons aswell) in a suicidal way

But let us go back to the point of Aegon´s need of Orys and a ground army...

Why waste resources on an army, and why the Last Storm battle with Orys's army and Meraxes if 3 dragons were enough to conquer Westeros?

3 dragons would we able to win most battles without ground troops

Who it their right mind would go within shot range of a dragon???

The main reason orys and his ground troops were needed were for consolidating power and garrisoning and taking castles..

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

3 dragons would we able to win most battles without ground troops

Who it their right mind would go within shot range of a dragon???

The main reason orys and his ground troops were needed were for consolidating power and garrisoning and taking castles..

They were not used for that in the Last Storm, nor on the First Dornish Invasion...

I'm not underestimating 3 dragons, i was saying it´s not enough to conquer westeros... they would burn people and castles and what?? retreat and do it again latter? one day 1 dragon gets hit (meraxes), the other day another... you need an army to conquer land, 3 dragons are not enough and that was my point...

Orys was a great commander of land troops and a great warrior on foot and you need that so the 3 dragons can be even more deadly when the enemy has more than 3 points of attention, if not westeros just needs to do it the dornish way... Orys was needed, even Aegon acknowledged his valor...

But if folks believe Aegon, his sisters and 3 dragons alone would conquer westeros fine, i don´t think so but that's my opinion, it is what it is

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But Rhaegar isn't a stable boy.

I know he isn't. I think he's meaning about the trope of the lady simply running away and not thinking the consequences, whether the guy is poor or a King. It's Lyanna he's talking about.

There was some essay I read last year about how to understand and write about medieval ladies, and the arranged marriages was a thing on its own. We see it as something terrible but they believed it was their duty to their families to work it out. That's what GRRM is trying to say.

[Petyr Patter]

Yes it was, without Lyanna, the spark would have never been lit. Aerys could have lived and died , sure more people would have died but they weren't gonna rebel because everyone saw Rhaegar and he's a good future king.

If it had been Catelynn? No spark.

If it had been Cersei? No spark, in fact Cersei might have even welcome it and Tywin would be all for it.

If it had been a Tyrell? Doubtful, they were loyal the whole way. Though now it would just be Dorne vs Tyrell.

It had to be Lyanna.

I disagree, the problem was Aeyrs was insane. Lyanna's abduction was the crisis that set his madness to tearing the realm apart. WIthout the abduction, we still have an insane, paranoid, surrounded by sycophants, and increasingly willing to ignore law and custom monarch.

There would have been a crisis. THe Iron Born declaring independence. A Blackfyre resurgence. A famine. Would the sides have been drawn the same way? Probably not. Yet, without Aerys the abduction never would have resulted in war. With Aerys, war would have even without the abduction.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think ned thought telling robert after Lyannas death would have been very hard on robert. ned probably hoped that robert would use Lyannas memory to keep him going when times got tough, that believing she loved him would keep him strong. As it turned out, the opposite happened - robert dwelled entirely in the past because he didn't know the truth - he harmed his future relationships and remained vengeful towards innocent Targ kids.

If ned had told robert the truth it would have hurt their friendship, BUT it probably would have been the best thing for the kingdom. Robert might have punished gregor/Lorch considering hed have to accept that Rhaegar wasn't a monster. He wouldn't be stuck on this fantasy of Lyanna as a perfect woman, and might not have fucked up his marriage from day 1 (though with cersei, it's likely to have gone south anyway, maybe not quite as spectacularly).