"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Ned would not go against his fathers wishes.

His father made the arrangement for them to marry, he is not going to argue with his father over it.

The Ned we see in the books has been his own Lord for 20 years yet when a Nights Watch man is caught he obeys the law and chops his head off no matter if he thinks its right or wrong, when his King orders him to kill Sansa's pet he does so no matter if he thinks its right or wrong, when his King decides that his son will marry his daughter her agrees as his King commands.

He simply is not the type of person to disagree with his fathers/Lords judgement.

Lyanna would have to get married anyway, and she is not going to get many better offers than the Lord of the Stormlands.

Well, if that conversation is out of the question, then Ned cannot 15 years latter think Robert´s rage towards Rhaegar was too much, because he and his sister didn´t tell him the lack of love she had for him (because of rickard or not)... ever... so even i would rage forever with a man who took my love who i didn´t have a clew had no love for me in return

[Nami]

Trust me i understand the medieval stance you say... but here we have an opportunity with Ned being his best friend and convincing him with Lyanna that he would be unhappy with her... and in the end Robert could cancel the marriage, Rickard would be powerless to stop it...

Ned, Lyanna, Robert... 30 minutes of honesty... i think it might work on Bob and convince him to search another, much happier course

You're still thinking in a modern day way

All of these people knew that feelings were not priority when it comes to marriage. All of them had a duty to fulfill, their roles to play.

I mean, really, can you imagine this:

Ned says to Robert : "Robert, Lyanna doesn't want to marry you"

Lyanna enters the scene: "Yeah, Robert, I don't love you and you know how relevant my feelings are to this whole matter, so choose someone else."

Robert answers: "Oh my gods, really? Ok, I guess. Dammit, I need to find someone else who really cares for me and that I also love back. How cruel life is!"

[John Doe]

You're still thinking in a modern day way

All of these people knew that feelings were not priority when it comes to marriage. All of them had a duty to fulfill, their roles to play.

I mean, really, can you imagine this:

Ned says to Robert : "Robert, Lyanna doesn't want to marry you"

Lyanna enters the scene: "Yeah, Robert, I don't love you and you know how relevant my feelings are to this whole matter, so choose someone else."

Robert answers: "Oh my gods, really? Ok, I guess. Dammit, I need to find someone else who really cares for me and that I also love back. How cruel life is!"

Agreed.

[Poorboy78]

You know what I just realized? I think Lyanna WAS Raped. She was kidnapped and there was no love save for Jon Snow her baby. Let's look at all the info we know.

GRRM stated that he hate typical fantasy tropes and love to toss it out the window. The most glaring example was Hero Ned killed, and then the son rising out to avenge his father in typical fashion. NOT.

So a common fantasy tropes would be an incompetent fat king that has no redeeming value and thus the audience would love to hate. (Robert) If there was anything GRRM could to to make the readers with MODERN sensibilities hate Robert he did it. Fat! Like to Whore and Drink! Hit his wife! That just get our rile up our sense and we have automatically dismissed anything he said.

Then we have GRRM who now present to us the perfect hero arch type. Rhaegar. Long silvery hair, good looking, compose poems and songs out the bunghole. Can get ANY woman he wants, people would never or could never really think bad about him. To reinforce this, Ned, our protagonist even have no bad thought about Rhaegar because he's so perfect! That's yet another typical fantasy trope where the Prince save the madein from an unhappy marriage but is tragically TORN apart by war. But surely that was a love meant to be, soul mates.

Then finally we have Lyanna who have modern day values that resonate with the readers" Love is sweet ned but it cannot change a man nature." Obviously if Lyanna said this, it should be fact and apply across the board yet... in the book. It's all about changing one's nature. Take for example. Sansa, her nature is to be sweet dociles etc etc. She changed it. Look at Arya, she tom boyish and love family, she is now No-One and changed her nature. Look at Jon, complete bastard broke his vow and oath twice, he is known to be honorable yet he still did it. Ned was force to change his nature at sword point and declare himself a traitor before his head was lobbed off. Honorable Robb nature changed when he knowinly dishonored the Frey. The nature of westeros to always honor the "Guest Rights" was shoved out the window when they Red Wedding-ed Robb.

Then we have people like Visery who refuse to change their nature- Dead. Tywin? Dead, Oberyn? Dead.

Everyone point to people saying "Rhaegar loves Lady Lyanna." And he might have but it could be one sided. Remember Aerys and his one sided love for his wife. What if Rhaegar was more subvert and hidden behind a very likeable face and personality? And Robert who show us his bad side all through out, were very much in the right the whole time?

[John Doe]

You know what I just realized? I think Lyanna WAS Raped. She was kidnapped and there was no love save for Jon Snow her baby. Let's look at all the info we know.

GRRM stated that he hate typical fantasy tropes and love to toss it out the window. The most glaring example was Hero Ned killed, and then the son rising out to avenge his father in typical fashion. NOT.

So a common fantasy tropes would be an incompetent fat king that has no redeeming value and thus the audience would love to hate. (Robert) If there was anything GRRM could to to make the readers with MODERN sensibilities hate Robert he did it. Fat! Like to Whore and Drink! Hit his wife! That just get our rile up our sense and we have automatically dismissed anything he said.

Then we have GRRM who now present to us the perfect hero arch type. Rhaegar. Long silvery hair, good looking, compose poems and songs out the bunghole. Can get ANY woman he wants, people would never or could never really think bad about him. To reinforce this, Ned, our protagonist even have no bad thought about Rhaegar because he's so perfect! That's yet another typical fantasy trope where the Prince save the madein from an unhappy marriage but is tragically TORN apart by war. But surely that was a love meant to be, soul mates.

Then finally we have Lyanna who have modern day values that resonate with the readers" Love is sweet ned but it cannot change a man nature." Obviously if Lyanna said this, it should be fact and apply across the board yet... in the book. It's all about changing one's nature. Take for example. Sansa, her nature is to be sweet dociles etc etc. She changed it. Look at Arya, she tom boyish and love family, she is now No-One and changed her nature. Look at Jon, complete bastard broke his vow and oath twice, he is known to be honorable yet he still did it. Ned was force to change his nature at sword point and declare himself a traitor before his head was lobbed off. Honorable Robb nature changed when he knowinly dishonored the Frey. The nature of westeros to always honor the "Guest Rights" was shoved out the window when they Red Wedding-ed Robb.

Then we have people like Visery who refuse to change their nature- Dead. Tywin? Dead, Oberyn? Dead.

Everyone point to people saying "Rhaegar loves Lady Lyanna." And he might have but it could be one sided. Remember Aerys and his one sided love for his wife. What if Rhaegar was more subvert and hidden behind a very likeable face and personality? And Robert who show us his bad side all through out, were very much in the right the whole time?

+1

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Running away with a 15 years old girl is still "kidnapping" in my book, either she wanted or not. And having sex with her is rape at that age anyway.

What Lyanna wanted or tought at the time is as pointless for Robert and Ned as it would be for us if our daughter or sister runs away with a guy when she is aged 15, and gets pregnant.

[sweetsunray]

Running away with a 15 years old girl is still "kidnapping" in my book, either she wanted or not. And having sex with her is rape at that age anyway.

What Lyanna wanted or tought at the time is as pointless for Robert and Ned as it would be for us if our daughter or sister runs away with a guy when she is aged 15, and gets pregnant.

1) There's a difference between statuary rape and violent rape. The first is to protect children from manipulation and exploitation, even though if it was consentual (to which I fully agree). The latter is to protect anyone from being sexually assaulted against their will.

However, unless you were to apply statuary rape on every woman married and bedded by their husbands under <16 (or <18 depending whichever country or state you live in) to the books, then Cat was raped by Ned as well for example. And if Lyanna hadn't run, then by the same definition she had been raped by Robert, as she was still 15. So, either Robert or Rhaegar would have "raped" her... the difference between the two would have been that with Rhaegar it was consentual, even though by our norms and understanding of development of maturity she was too young to give her consent. If she hadn't run off, she'd have been "raped" by a husband she didn't want and gotten preggers just as well.

2) We don't force our 15 year old daughters and sisters to marry either.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

1) There's a difference between statuary rape and violent rape. The first is to protect children from manipulation and exploitation, even though if it was consentual (to which I fully agree). The latter is to protect anyone from being sexually assaulted against their will.

However, unless you were to apply statuary rape on every woman married and bedded by their husbands under <16 (or <18 depending whichever country or state you live in) to the books, then Cat was raped by Ned as well for example. And if Lyanna hadn't run, then by the same definition she had been raped by Robert, as she was still 15. So, either Robert or Rhaegar would have "raped" her... the difference between the two would have been that with Rhaegar it was consentual, even though by our norms and understanding of development of maturity she was too young to give her consent. If she hadn't run off, she'd have been "raped" by a husband she didn't want and gotten preggers just as well.

2) We don't force our 15 year old daughters and sisters to marry either.

In our moder definition of rape, It is not rape if they are married even if they are minors. Generally speaking, they would need the agreement of their fathers to get married so Robert and Ned wouldnt be raping their wives.

sorry my english skills are not working right tonight. What Im trying to say it that the disc is pointless since this is a kidnap and a rape either in modern or medieval standars.

[sweetsunray]

In our moder definition of rape, It is not rape if they are married even if they are minors. Generally speaking, they would need the agreement of their fathers to get married so Robert and Ned wouldnt be raping their wives.

sorry my english skills are not working right tonight. What Im trying to say it that the disc is pointless since this is a kidnap and a rape either in modern or medieval standars.

By our modern standards nobody can be forced to be married, minor or adult, and secondly there's also something as spousal rape.

So, you are arguing that if Lyanna eloped at 15 out of love and willingly made love to Rhaegar, that it was rape, because she is not of age of consent? But though she is not of age of consent, her consent is of no importance when being wed to Robert and that because she's then married to Robert, a man she does not love nor wants, it is not rape?

[Poorboy78]

Running away with a 15 years old girl is still "kidnapping" in my book, either she wanted or not. And having sex with her is rape at that age anyway.

What Lyanna wanted or tought at the time is as pointless for Robert and Ned as it would be for us if our daughter or sister runs away with a guy when she is aged 15, and gets pregnant.

You are applying modern day values where none should be applied. In this world 16 is consider a man and you are lucky to live pass your forties. Child birthing is also consider a death sentence for most women. Hence the obsession with "Child bearing hips."

In those times, when she flowered she is legal.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are applying modern day values where none should be applied. In this world 16 is consider a man and you are lucky to live pass your forties. Child birthing is also consider a death sentence for most women. Hence the obsession with "Child bearing hips."

In those times, when she flowered she is legal.

In those times you needed the fathers permission before you could kidnap a 14/15 year old woman.

[sweetsunray]

You are applying modern day values where none should be applied. In this world 16 is consider a man and you are lucky to live pass your forties. Child birthing is also consider a death sentence for most women. Hence the obsession with "Child bearing hips."

In those times, when she flowered she is legal.

I don't mind applying modern day values on mideval times... there's a reason why we evolved to our modern values. But I don't like it when people cherry-pick modern values: they'll say, yeah but that's ok since it was the custom then, but that other thing isn't alright because we would think it wrong nowadays. And it's because of this cherry-picking that applying modern day values is often a non-argument.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

By our modern standards nobody can be forced to be married, minor or adult, and secondly there's also something as spousal rape.

So, you are arguing that if Lyanna eloped at 15 out of love and willingly made love to Rhaegar, that it was rape, because she is not of age of consent? But though she is not of age of consent, her consent is of no importance when being wed to Robert and that because she's then married to Robert, a man she does not love nor wants, it is not rape?

No. Im just saying is rape and kidnapping. Both in their standars and ours. For it to not be rape people should go on standards shoping and import half of ours and half of them.

Ned of Robert situation might differ from one standar to the other, but it is not the point of the thread

[sweetsunray]

No. Im just saying is rape and kidnapping. Both in their standars and ours.

Ned of Robert situation might differ from one standar to the other, but it is not the point of the thread

No it isn't. To our standards it's statuary rape because of age of consent. By Westeros standards a woman is a sexual adult when she has her first menses, even though she is not of legal adult age. Hence a woman of 14 can be wedded off to a man, irregardless of her consent, and the marriage stands. But a woman of 14 can also elope and wed someone she wants, and that marriage ALSO stands, and there's nothing a father would be able to do about it. So, in that regard, a girl's age of consent is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is whether she does what her father tells her to do, or doesn't. And the sole time a woman's consent in Westeros is of any relevance is when she's an adult and a widow with heirs already, and too old to bear any new children. Even Cersei's age of consent is irrelevant, though her son is king already.

And the point of this thread is not about determining whether Lyanna was raped or not by Rhaegar. The point of this thread was to ask whether Lyanna (and Ned) could have been honest to Robert and whether Robert would call the betrothal off after learning Lyanna conffesed she didn't love him.

[Poorboy78]

In those times you needed the fathers permission before you could kidnap a 14/15 year old woman.

Unless you are the king or royalty, then the rules does not apply to you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Unless you are the king or royalty, then the rules does not apply to you.

Maybe the King, and that is certainly debatable, but the rules would still apply to Royalty.

A King can change the law and suffer the consequences if the people of the land disagreed but a Prince cant make up his own laws. He'd still need his fathers permission to break the law. It is the same if he committed polygamy, being a Prince does not give him the right to break the rules, like it didn't for the Princes Daemon Blackfyre and Dameon Targaryen when they wanted a second wife.

Princes are still bound by the laws of the Crown.

[The silver dragon]

In those times you needed the fathers permission before you could kidnap a 14/15 year old woman.

do you have evidence that rhaegar took lynna against her will?

if so i must be missing something.

[jet199]

All characters think that Lyanna was abducted at sword point, even Dany who has had nothing but pro-Targ propaganda. There is nothing in the books to point to anything different happening.

I wouldn't be suprised if Lyanna felt about Robert pretty much how Sansa feels about Harry in the new chapter (accept Robert was nicer than Harry). Marrying someone you don't love in Westeros is pretty much the standard so you make the best of it. Also we know Lyanna had a practical mind so she would be even more cynical than Sansa.

The reason Ned didn't tell Robert that Lyanna didn't love him is because it didn't matter and if she did have strong feelings for Rhaegar then Ned probably didn't know until he found her at the tower of joy. If you are going to have an elicit relationship you don't tell anyone, particularly not your betroved's best friend, even if he is your brother.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

You're still thinking in a modern day way

All of these people knew that feelings were not priority when it comes to marriage. All of them had a duty to fulfill, their roles to play.

I mean, really, can you imagine this:

Ned says to Robert : "Robert, Lyanna doesn't want to marry you"

Lyanna enters the scene: "Yeah, Robert, I don't love you and you know how relevant my feelings are to this whole matter, so choose someone else."

Robert answers: "Oh my gods, really? Ok, I guess. Dammit, I need to find someone else who really cares for me and that I also love back. How cruel life is!"

No one can fault Robert´s exaggerated hate for rhaegar then... for all he knew she loved him the same amount as he loved her...

So when Ned thinks his friend his STILL mad at Rhaegar, he shouldn´t be suprised... you (Ned or Lya) either let him know the lack of love Lyanna had for Bob or you just don´t second guess why he's still man at Rhaegar... i would too

[John Doe]

do you have evidence that rhaegar took lynna against her will?

if so i must be missing something.

Do you have evidence she went willingly?

The evidence we have is grrms quote about arranged marriage.