"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[Sweetgirl205]

Plus, Ned knew nothing about women.

1. He honestly expected Cersie just to pack up and go after he threatened her, Jamie, and her children.

2. He couldn't relate to Sansa at all. She was way more feminine than Arya. He probably viewed Arya as a boy at times.

3. He never trusted Catelyn the truth about Jon. If he was afraid for his trueborn children, he could have told her when Jon left for the Wall.

Ned was honorable, not smart.

[Crippledtank]

No. If you remember there are other ways that a woman can lose her maidenhead.

Um what. Okay so let's rewind a tid bit

Girl who loses her maidenhead while horse riding etc is cool (like Margery)

Girl who loses maidenhead while riding a lord is not cool.

Girl who has already lost her maidenhead horse riding then rides a lord is still not cool

Basically any female who loses her virginity before marriage is considered "used goods" (sorry if that's offensive just trying to put to words how the westerosi think.... Promiscuity FTW)

[Crippledtank]

Or hate and complete disaster later, as in quite a few arranged marriages in the series.

Yer the married couple but their offspring usually win from it. Rob automatically had the support of the RL and the vale except Lysa was controlled by LF

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Um what. Okay so let's rewind a tid bit

Girl who loses her maidenhead while horse riding etc is cool (like Margery)

Girl who loses maidenhead while riding a lord is not cool.

Girl who has already lost her maidenhead horse riding then rides a lord is still not cool

Basically any female who loses her virginity before marriage is considered "used goods" (sorry if that's offensive just trying to put to words how the westerosi think.... Promiscuity FTW)

So since "A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband" almost every high born woman is dishonored?

[Crippledtank]

So since "A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband" almost every high born woman is dishonored?

Okay so just incase your not a troll and someone is reading this actually wondering if you're right or is as "confused" as you are

They have to have sexual intercourse. From what you were saying I thought you meant maidenhead = the hymen

Basically if the hymen isn't intact it means they may no longer be a virgin but it doesn't guarantee it.

If you don't get it by now please repeat high school or pay more attention in health classes.

[LordStoneheart]

Ned does say something about how Robert didn't know her as well as he thought he did. Kind of the lighter way of telling him that.

First of all, I refuse to believe Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar willingly.

:lol:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Okay so just incase your not a troll and someone is reading this actually wondering if you're right or is as "confused" as you are

They have to have sexual intercourse. From what you were saying I thought you meant maidenhead = the hymen

Basically if the hymen isn't intact it means they may no longer be a virgin but it doesn't guarantee it.

If you don't get it by now please repeat high school or pay more attention in health classes.

I am not confussed thank you and look personal attacks! How original! CONGRATULATIONS!

I am saying that since we know from the freaking text that many and more of the noble woman would lose their maidenheads by riding no one can be sure of what happened and in any case since it's a woman's body it's a woman's responsibility except she is forced to have sex. Is there anything to say that Brandon had forced himself on anyone?

[LordStoneheart]

Someone has any idea why Lyanna never told Robert she didn´t love him??

Perhaps she was too afraid he'd kill her if she said that.

[The Wolfswood]

How about this. The way I see it is that many clues have been given by GRRM.

The Alice Karstark situation with Jon. Among the northern noble houses a woman who does not wish to be married to the man she is being forced to marry escapes to the closest thing she can find to 'her liege lord' for help. He helps by finding her another husband quick sharp.

Look at Lyanna's parallel situation. We already know from Ned's reminisces that Lyanna was at least dubious about Robert. Her liege lord was the man who was marrying her off to him. Perhaps she did refuse/complain to him, her father. We don't know. We also know that Ned was Roberts BFF and had been brought up with him, while hardly knowing Lyanna, so he was unlikely to be the best person to go to for help. Perhaps Lyanna discovered Rhaegar was in the Riverlands and went off to get help from him, as he outranked her father. Maybe Benjen helped her (being her closest sibling - the one she grew up with), which also may be why after all of this was over he joined the Night's Watch as self-punishment.

Meanwhile Rhaegar has a problem of his own. He is convinced he needs another child because of his obsession with that damn prophecy shit. His wife (who he respects) has just had their second child and is very ill. The doctors say she can't have another or she will die. So either he tries to have another with Elia and knowingly kills her or he finds another wife/woman. What an apparently perfect situation for them both. He knew that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree the year before (which is why he gave her the flowers), so thinks he has a strong woman this time. Ned still sees him as an honourable man right till the end so almost certainly Rhaegar did marry her and she told him so in the Tower of Joy.

Clearly Rhaegar was up to something at Harrenhall. He must have paid for it. Who also could have afforded it? What I believe is that he had been trying to set up a meeting with the great and the good of the kingdom with a view to gently edging out his mad dad with their acquiescence. But Aerys was paranoid (perhaps correctly in this case) and turned up for the first time he had left the Red Keep in 10 years so Rhaegar's plans were scuppered. Clearly he did not want to violently overthrow his father, more like a bloodless coup with the support of 'the realm'. So he gave up on that and followed up with his prophecy stuff instead.

That is my solution based on the evidence from ASOIAF and WOIAF. It is true that the WOIAF does insist that Lyanna was abducted, which contradicts my solution, but remember that book was written FOR ROBERT BARATHEON. Any maester who had dared to suggest otherwise would have very soon found themselves ripped limb from limb. Would a maester even have known otherwise?

Sound plausible? What do you think?

[Nami]

Perhaps she was too afraid he'd kill her if she said that.

More likely she would kill him first LOL

Or they would kill each other.

To be honest, I imagine their marriage would be nothing but a nightmare probably ending in tragedy. Lyanna wouldn't for one second take quietly to the treatment Robert gave Cersei. But of course he thought she would stay quiet. Oh Robert.

[Crippledtank]

I am not confussed thank you and look personal attacks! How original! CONGRATULATIONS!

I am saying that since we know from the freaking text that many and more of the noble woman would lose their maidenheads by riding no one can be sure of what happened and in any case since it's a woman's body it's a woman's responsibility except she is forced to have sex. Is there anything to say that Brandon had forced himself on anyone?

No but as with Margery's case it was only brought up because of cerseis claims otherwise no one would of cared even though she was widowed to renly. They only checked her maidenhead because of this. Sort of like a "well if it's intact if not then well press further with enquiries"

Being forced to have sex would fall under the rape category which people are known to be gelded for.

But no I don't beige there is any proof that Brandon was forceful!

Apologies for my little "personal attack" it felt I was reappearing myself again and again and thought I was being trolled

[Jon's Queen Consort]

More likely she would kill him first LOL

Or they would kill each other.

To be honest, I imagine their marriage would be nothing but a nightmare probably ending in tragedy. Lyanna wouldn't for one second take quietly to the treatment Robert gave Cersei. But of course he thought she would stay quiet. Oh Robert.

What make you believe that Robert would be with Lyanna the same that he was with Cersei?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Pretty much this. Because Ned was too much of a nice guy to keep it real. May he should have said to Robert the following:

"Uh, Robert, you know, you keep thinking you had some great romance with Lyanna. But, here is your problem dummy: It never fucking existed. Sorry, but she just really didn't like your big dumb drunk ass. I mean not that I could blame her. I wouldn't want your big dumb booze smelling ass on top of me either. So seriously, can you just cut the crap. Your 'romance' with Lyanna. LOL"

"...and btw, I quit".

Cersei was seen cheering in the background.

[Arrow of the Morning]

1. It's supported in text in TWOIAF that lyanna was ABDUCTED.

(I believe when we get more details it wit be so black and white but I get frustrated when people just say "lyanna happily went" without any evidence except ned acknowledging that Rhaegar wouldn't frequent brothels.

TWOIF shows only the current knowledge of the people of Westeros. The only people alive that knew the truth in the beginning of the novels was Ned, all and Howland, everyone (from the nobles to the small folk) seems to think she was kidnapped.

[BalerionTheCat]

If we think that Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar and Ned knew about it, how come Ned never told Robert that Lyanna didn't like him?

The times Robert brough up the matter of Rhaegar kidnapping her, Ned just stands there.

What's the deal with that? I don't see the point of hiding this from Robert. It could've even helped his friend to accept and move on.

After Jon's birth, telling Robert any part of the truth, like Lyanna was willing to go with Rhaegar, could put Robert to think of Lyanna and Rhaegar. And questioning if they didn't have a child during these 2 years together. It would be unlikely for Robert to come to suspect Jon, but it would be an unnecessary risk. And anyway, it would not ease Robert anger to know that Lyanna was loving Rhaegar and not him.

[The Wolves]

After Jon's birth, telling Robert any part of the truth, like Lyanna was willing to go with Rhaegar, could put Robert to think of Lyanna and Rhaegar. And questioning if they didn't have a child during these 2 years together. It would be unlikely for Robert to come to suspect Jon, but it would be an unnecessary risk. And anyway, it would not ease Robert anger to know that Lyanna was loving Rhaegar and not him.

Robert was dumb I doubt telling him the truth would lead him to finding out that Jon is probably Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Robert was dumb I doubt telling him the truth would lead him to finding out that Jon is probably Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid.

Robert could be JonA and Stannis were not.

[BalerionTheCat]

Robert could be JonA and Stannis were not.

And Tywin, and LF, and Varys. But the point is, it was an unnecessary risk.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And Tywin, and LF, and Varys. But the point is, it was an unnecessary risk.

I agree.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

How about this. The way I see it is that many clues have been given by GRRM.

The Alice Karstark situation with Jon. Among the northern noble houses a woman who does not wish to be married to the man she is being forced to marry escapes to the closest thing she can find to 'her liege lord' for help. He helps by finding her another husband quick sharp.

Look at Lyanna's parallel situation. We already know from Ned's reminisces that Lyanna was at least dubious about Robert. Her liege lord was the man who was marrying her off to him. Perhaps she did refuse/complain to him, her father. We don't know. We also know that Ned was Roberts BFF and had been brought up with him, while hardly knowing Lyanna, so he was unlikely to be the best person to go to for help. Perhaps Lyanna discovered Rhaegar was in the Riverlands and went off to get help from him, as he outranked her father. Maybe Benjen helped her (being her closest sibling - the one she grew up with), which also may be why after all of this was over he joined the Night's Watch as self-punishment.

Meanwhile Rhaegar has a problem of his own. He is convinced he needs another child because of his obsession with that damn prophecy shit. His wife (who he respects) has just had their second child and is very ill. The doctors say she can't have another or she will die. So either he tries to have another with Elia and knowingly kills her or he finds another wife/woman. What an apparently perfect situation for them both. He knew that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree the year before (which is why he gave her the flowers), so thinks he has a strong woman this time. Ned still sees him as an honourable man right till the end so almost certainly Rhaegar did marry her and she told him so in the Tower of Joy.

Clearly Rhaegar was up to something at Harrenhall. He must have paid for it. Who also could have afforded it? What I believe is that he had been trying to set up a meeting with the great and the good of the kingdom with a view to gently edging out his mad dad with their acquiescence. But Aerys was paranoid (perhaps correctly in this case) and turned up for the first time he had left the Red Keep in 10 years so Rhaegar's plans were scuppered. Clearly he did not want to violently overthrow his father, more like a bloodless coup with the support of 'the realm'. So he gave up on that and followed up with his prophecy stuff instead.

That is my solution based on the evidence from ASOIAF and WOIAF. It is true that the WOIAF does insist that Lyanna was abducted, which contradicts my solution, but remember that book was written FOR ROBERT BARATHEON. Any maester who had dared to suggest otherwise would have very soon found themselves ripped limb from limb. Would a maester even have known otherwise?

Sound plausible? What do you think?

I definitely think you're on to something, although you'll be called a "Targ lover" and a Rhaegar-defender for saying it. In fact, this is quite a bit like my spec, although I go a bit further, because I don't think it was a matter of Rhaegar trading politics for prophecy (see the link in my signature).

And remember, Lyanna didn't have to travel to find Rhaegar in the Riverlands. She never went back to Winterfell after the Tourney... instead, she was staying at Harrenhal, likely being fostered by Lady Whent, a maternal relative of her soon-to-be-goodsister Catelyn Tully. Between dumping her wine over her brother's head at a royal banquet, defending Howland Reed from his attackers (I'm sure there were witnesses), and the utter "disgrace" of being crowned QoLaB by a very married prince, Lyanna would have scandalized the Southron matrons.

She's betrothed to one of the great lords, the young Lord Robert Baratheon... and I am certain that either Lady Whent, or a group of well-meaning ladies, thought it'd be best for the girl to remain where she could learn to be a chatelaine and run Storm's End. Older women would figure that it's not her fault, what with being raised with her widowed father and nothing but brothers in the wild North... with some training, she could learn what she needed to know before she was sent to the Stormlands.

How little they knew.