"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[Nami]

You're looking at it from the perspective of a modern person and not someone in a feudal society. The alliance between Baratheon and Stark was a big freaking deal, something put together by Jon Arryn and Rickon Stark as part of the so-called "Southron Ambitions". In the eyes of their society, Lyanna had a duty to go through with it whether she was into Robert or not, and Ned had a duty to obey his father and Lord. Trying to turn Robert off the match, although from our perspective clearly the right thing to do, would be Ned fucking over his family and essentially defying his dad, which is totally Not Cool from the perspective of the super honorable Starks.

After she was dead, assuming that R+L=J, reminding Robert of the fact that she and Rhaegar were together might make him start thinking about Jon, and also just kind of needlessly antagonizes and/or hurts him. Lyanna's dead either way. There's nothing to be gained from it, and plenty of ways it could go wrong. Robert is not even remotely sane about Targaryens, and if he realized Jon's true parentage (plus the fact that Ned lies about it), that puts Jon in mortal danger.

Only Ned was the honorable Stark

Brandon was taking noble girls virginities left and right. I doubt he had any honor.

[OldGimletEye]

Ned also loves Robert as a brother and he eventually realised that the only thing that kept him relatively sane is his memory of killing Rhaegar and "avenging" Lyanna. Robert defeating Rhaegar is like a 40 years old former jock remembering his glory days in high school. You can't tell him "btw, you were never good: the coach ordered everybody to let you win". You would destroy him, specially if that's the only thing they have. Whether you think he was right or not (I think he was not), Ned only wanted to protect Robert.

Pretty much this. Because Ned was too much of a nice guy to keep it real. May he should have said to Robert the following:

"Uh, Robert, you know, you keep thinking you had some great romance with Lyanna. But, here is your problem dummy: It never fucking existed. Sorry, but she just really didn't like your big dumb drunk ass. I mean not that I could blame her. I wouldn't want your big dumb booze smelling ass on top of me either. So seriously, can you just cut the crap. Your 'romance' with Lyanna. LOL"

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Only Ned was the honorable Stark

Brandon was taking noble girls virginities left and right. I doubt he had any honor.

So the girls had nothing to say about the bodies? Why is dishonorable to have sex with someone who wants to have sex?

[Nami]

So the girls had nothing to say about the bodies? Why is dishonorable to have sex with someone who wants to have sex?

Because in the context of the world they're living in, taking a noble woman virginity without being married is a great stain on their honor.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because in the context of the world they're living in, taking a noble woman virginity without being married is a great stain on their honor.

No. Sorry. There is no where to say that consensual sex between two willing parters is dishonorable.Yes it can cause some problems but it was never mentioned that a man who doesn't lies to anyone and doesn't force anyone is dishonorable.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

1.) ground troops did not win that war.

2.) it was enough to subdue the lords of the soon to be crown lands, enough to to cow the queen mother shara into submission of he vale.

enough to break harren, enough to win the field of fire and enough to make torren realize he was fucked.

all in all the three dragons were enough to rout any army and destroy any castle.

#aegon would still be king.

"My shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand" quoted by Aegon I describing Orys

1 - They won it as much as the Dragons (despite the latter´s highest importance), with no army, it's pretty easy for the opponent to rain poisoned arrows on the dragons alone, and hide afterwards...

2- You might imagine that Aegon went with his dragon alone but if that was the case then he couldn´t win against any great army, his dragons are not Tolkien´s beasts, they are pretty killable, especially if you don´t have an army to back them up

In my honest opinion, Aegon with his sisters and the 3 dragons alone... would not have conquered Westeros unless the realm was populated by idiots who couldn´t strike dragons with thousands of archers and strongholds... and let's not forget people were riding those dragons, people who die with arrows to the flesh pretty easily

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Someone has any idea why Lyanna never told Robert she didn´t love him??

[Pod The Rod]

No. Sorry. There is no where to say that consensual sex between two willing parters is dishonorable.Yes it can cause some problems but it was never mentioned that a man who doesn't lies to anyone and doesn't force anyone is dishonorable.

In the world of Westeros, yes, it's dishonorable. You would be correct with regards to modern morality (lol what an oxymoron), but not a medieval feudal society.

[Crippledtank]

1.It's also supported in text in TWOIAF that the Others are nothing but a MYTH, that Rhaegar's children were murdered by either Aerys or Elia (who presumably went on to rape and kill herself), and that Robert's reign was the most GLORIOUS eva.

2.There's more evidence than that. Like Ned saying Lyanna was wilful and had wolf blood and it lead her to an early grave. And Lyanna clutching the withered and dead blue roses as she was dying, the same flowers her room was full of, the same type of flowers Rhaegar once gave her when he crowned her QOLAB.

3.But hey, maybe Ned was just a victim-blaming, rape apologist asshole who thought his sister was responsible for getting kidnapped and raped, and that going to brothels is worse than being a rapist (even with his own sister as a victim). And maybe Lyanna just liked to keep remembrances of her dead kidnapper/rapist. After all, what's the evidence of Ned's opinion and Ned's memories compared to the evidence of Robert's belief and the official history by Maester Yandel?

1. Yes but it supports that most of the 7k believe it was an abduction.

This book is meant to be written by a maester.... How is he suppose to say Others exist when 99% of the nights watch don't believe they exist? Maesters don't use the weirwood network or use tales and songs as proof and I don't think they put Ned's thoughts before the rest of the realm.

2.ive said this many times before that Ned's thoughts about lyanna and Rhaegar are left vague for a reason. I'm more than betting that lyanna wasn't 100% opposed to being "abducted" but the whole situation just seems stupid on either Rhaegar or lyannas part (why stage it as an abduction) an better yet why make it so obvious who abducted her? That bit blows my mind every time!

Just to be clear abduction =/= rape

it's very plausible that lyanna and Rhaegar were happy with eachother at the tower of joy. ( I like the idea of Jon and ygritte foreshadows Rhaegar and lyanna) but still I think Ned's thoughts on Rhaegar are too vague to openly interpret them as Rhaegar was 100% in the right on this. Either way Rhaegar still took lyanna and held her away from her family and her betrothed and I can only think of one time ned openly voices complete contempt for anyone and thats the kingslayer.

There are two colors GRRM likes to write with one is red the other is grey and this whole lyanna abduction will end up being as grey as it gets.

3. We are talking about a feudal society where women are shipped off to enemies to make peace? assuming R+L=J then Ned's thoughts on Rhaegar could be skewed by Jon. To add some power to this point ned disapproves of what Jaime did to aerys dispite the circumstances. Again there are many answers to Ned's thoughts and to simply say "they mean this and only this" is just ignorant if you ask me. Never once does ned thinks that she's to blame nor does he think rhaegars totally innocent there are clues to this though but I will say seeming how ned doesn't punch a baby in the face every time aerys is mentioned or thought of it's hard to seem him doing the same towards Rhaegar. Possibly in Ned's mind it happened 20ish years ago and he's moved on past his grief and anger..... Unlike Robert

I say this on every Rhaegar thread because people defend rhaegars actions like he's their lil bro or babies momma but until GRRM puts it in black and white it's a theory, no more no less.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

In the world of Westeros, yes, it's dishonorable. You would be correct with regards to modern morality (lol what an oxymoron), but not a medieval feudal society.

The point is that the act is dishonorable not the person. Do we know if they were more that th Dustin one? Do we know if they went willingly or not?

[Crippledtank]

Someone has any idea why Lyanna never told Robert she didn´t love him??

She is a LPs daughter her duty to her family is to marry whom she's told and unite their houses.... Most arranged marriages are marry now, babies now, love later (in westeros that is)

[Sweetgirl205]

Ned tried in a weak sort of way. When Robert was going on about how great life would have been if he was able to marry Lyanna, Ned told him he never really knew her.

[Annara Snow]

1. Yes but it supports that most of the 7k believe it was an abduction.

This book is meant to be written by a maester.... How is he suppose to say Others exist when 99% of the nights watch don't believe they exist? Maesters don't use the weirwood network or use tales and songs as proof and I don't think they put Ned's thoughts before the rest of the realm.

So, do you think that the whole realm believed that Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered by Aerys or Elia? We've known from book 1 that it was common knowledge that Tywin had them murdered, and that Gregor smashed Aegon's head and then raped and murdered Elia. It was just not spoken aloud.

Do you really think the maester was going to write that Lyanna may not have been abducted? Come on!

[Annara Snow]

She is a LPs daughter her duty to her family is to marry whom she's told and unite their houses.... Most arranged marriages are marry now, babies now, love later (in westeros that is)

Or hate and complete disaster later, as in quite a few arranged marriages in the series.

[Crippledtank]

The point is that the act is dishonorable not the person. Do we know if they were more that th Dustin one? Do we know if they went willingly or not?

Robb stark married a woman and broke one of his most important alliances to save her honour.... If a noble man and woman bed the woman is dishonoured and loses her maidenhead. (Unless they are married) though I do render cersei admitted to bedding with lancel after overtake death and the high sparrow guy shrugged that of did he not?

[UnFit Finlay]

Edit: Regardind the topic, yeah it might have been difficult for Ned to tell his best friend that after her death... but why didn´t Lyanna spared an hour of her time to tell Robert... "i don´t love you, find another"... Bob with his pride would soon find another bride, he was LP and one of the most handsome guys in the kingdoms, and both would be happy... for the life of me, i can't see why not tell him... it's not like he would hammer her head in front of Ned and yell... "WHY YOU NO LOVE MEEEEE"

Because it's Westeros. Lyanna telling Robert that she didn't love him would only have served to make their subsequent marriage all the more miserable.

Oh sure, but that doesn't mean anything.

Like say I flirt with a married woman at a bar, and her husband finds out, takes out a hit on her father, and her family then attack him in turn, causing a decade long feud that with civil blood makes civil hands unclean-it's still not my fault her husbnd acted in completely irrational manner even if it was my actions that set the whole thing off.

Wars are not Rube Goldberg machines.

Small, seemingly inconsequential, actions can lead to wars though. In your scenario people would still say that it started with you chatting up the wrong woman.

The war was not Lyanna's fault, and would likely have happened anyway, but her "kidnapping" was what kick started it all.

No. Sorry. There is no where to say that consensual sex between two willing parters is dishonorable.Yes it can cause some problems but it was never mentioned that a man who doesn't lies to anyone and doesn't force anyone is dishonorable.

I don't know that it's considered dishonourable for a man to have sex out of marriage but it absolutely is for a woman. Taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage is even referred to as "dishonouring" her many times throughout the series. If it wasn't, why would Robb break his vow to the Freys in order to protect Jeyne's honour? Why do women who have been dishonoured seem to end up with deeply unsatisfactory husbands? Lysa went from potentially marrying Jaime Lannister to marrying Jon Arryn, a man older than her father, Delena Florent married one of her father's own Knights, Gatehouse Ami was married to a Hedge Knight, Lady Stokeworth went from trying to marry Lollys to Tyrion to settling for Bronn. I'm sure there's plenty of other examples as well.

[Nami]

Someone has any idea why Lyanna never told Robert she didn´t love him??

Probably because it wouldn't make a difference.

It was a political marriage, so it made no sense to tell him that. Plus what I got was that she was never that close to him to bring up that matter. They probably just exchanged greetings and that's it, since we know that Robert barely knew her as Ned said.

Ned on the other hand was Robert's BFF and its been already years after her death, Robert is still a mess so Ned could have helped him with that. Maybe after Robert married Cersei.

[The Wolves]

Someone has any idea why Lyanna never told Robert she didn´t love him??

They never had a conversation and she didn't know that Robert loved her all that she probably knew was that the Lord of the Stormlands who was her brother's best friend had just asked her father for her hand in marriage plus Ned's assurence that Robert would love her.

Lyanna probably didn't know that Robert asked for her hand out of love.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Robb stark married a woman and broke one of his most important alliances to save her honour.... If a noble man and woman bed the woman is dishonoured and loses her maidenhead. (Unless they are married) though I do render cersei admitted to bedding with lancel after overtake death and the high sparrow guy shrugged that of did he not?

No. If you remember there are other ways that a woman can lose her maidenhead.

I don't know that it's considered dishonourable for a man to have sex out of marriage but it absolutely is for a woman. Taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage is even referred to as "dishonouring" her many times throughout the series. If it wasn't, why would Robb break his vow to the Freys in order to protect Jeyne's honour? Why do women who have been dishonoured seem to end up with deeply unsatisfactory husbands? Lysa went from potentially marrying Jaime Lannister to marrying Jon Arryn, a man older than her father, Delena Florent married one of her father's own Knights, Gatehouse Ami was married to a Hedge Knight, Lady Stokeworth went from trying to marry Lollys to Tyrion to settling for Bronn. I'm sure there's plenty of other examples as well.

Because Robb was an idiot. Lysa had got pregnant not just sex. Also as I have said before we know from the books A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband,

[Crippledtank]

So, do you think that the whole realm believed that Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered by Aerys or Elia? We've known from book 1 that it was common knowledge that Tywin had them murdered, and that Gregor smashed Aegon's head and then raped and murdered Elia. It was just not spoken aloud.

Do you really think the maester was going to write that Lyanna may not have been abducted? Come on!

If it was common knowledge that lyanna wasn't abducted then someone should send a raven to Rickard stark, Brandon stark, jorah Mormant and Selmy who fail to mention that lyanna and Rhaegar eloped, telling this to dany would be considered important don't you think?

It's easy to consider that the Starks wouldn't react so harshly had she ran away and it seems silly to lock her away in the TOJ if she's happy to go with him.

Obviously the info is bias towards baratheon and the rebels cause as the book is a gift for tommen...although Many times it's mentioned what happened to the royal family in the books... And all we have to go on about the abduction is a few thoughts from ned about 18 years after the events (that's neglecting the info where characters call it an abduction).... But where is the information (not counting speculation that can be dismissed) that it's common knowledge that lyanna WASNT kidnapped.

The maester did go on about the WW possibly being real but doesn't go on about the abduction which is noted as a major event because of what it causes.