The "Necessity" of Scenes Like That

[Stan Man]

So the thread on "that scene" was getting a bit exhaustive, so I wanted to round about another discussion about the "necessity" of scenes. I write for a living, and I've written quite a few novels. Now, I'm not such a fan of what D&D are doing, but I do acknowledge that I must treat the books and show as two different entities, now more than ever. With that being said, D&D must tread carefully and make sure that, with their limited time, each scene must build up to something. Every second counts on screen, especially with ten episodes.

This scene certainly had necessity. Sansa is alienated in Winterfell, for sure. It seems like everyone around her has committed a crime against her family. Theon "killed" her brothers. Ramsay destroyed Theon. Roose stabbed Robb. Walda is related to one of the orchestrators of the Red Wedding. Myranda despises her for this arranged marriage. She surely has no friends in Winterfell, but she demonstrates her independence and will anyways in the bathtub scene. We're rooting for Sansa, clearly.

This scene, as difficult as it is to watch, is the cherry on the cake for Sansa - AND for Theon. I believe that this hammers the nail in Ramsay's coffin. He has gone too far this time. Sansa is clearly symbolic of the North - she is bowed, bent, and broken, literally and figuratively. She is at her worst - even Joffrey wasn't this cruel to her as to seize her virginity via rape. Ramsay now rivals Joffrey in my eyes. Yes, we know Ramsay's bad, but now *he* has hurt a character that we care about.

Many people despised Theon after Season 2; after his torture, things got muddy. Every scene is necessary - it has a purpose, otherwise D&D wouldn't waste time with it. Now, I'm no stark defender of The Powers That Be, but I will defend the necessity of scenes like this. We know the Northern Theatre is building up to a fantastic climax - Sansa, Ramsay, Roose, Theon, Brienne, Podrick, Myranda, Walda, Stannis, Davos, Littlefinger (and maybe Mance? Fingers crossed). Every gruesome scene will make the Battle of Winterfell and the demise of the Boltons that much more satisfying.

Brace yourselves. Revenge is coming.

TL;DR: No scene is unnecessary in working towards a resolution.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I actually agree with this, and it fits with the direction that they seem to be taking. I think it is important to sometimes view the scenes for their purpose rather than interject personal social arguments that oftentimes are out of place and perhaps out of touch. That scene put both the act and individual in a very negative light, and it was not a celebration of his character or the act; instead it shows the brutality of both the era and the individual character.

Ramsay has come off as a nasty bit of work, but that scene, I think puts Ramsay in an entirely new category of sadistic. As you pointed out, this was done to a character many of us adore, either for her individual character or the house she belongs to, and that has much more of an effect on our emotions than the (f)Arya scene in DwD.

The consequence of that scene will have an interesting affect on the average viewer. If there were a poll, my guess would be that Stannis' approval rating just went through the roof. Now people are going to tune in to see if Sansa gets her revenge and how.

[SerDesmondHume]

The show is the show and the books are the books. I'm not a fan of what's happening so far in Sansa's s5 plot and don't think it makes sense. But I will see how it ends before I make full judgement.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The show is the show and the books are the books. I'm not a fan of what's happening so far in Sansa's s5 plot and don't think it makes sense. But I will see how it ends before I make full judgement.

I think by the end of the books, we will see that Sansa eventually got to Winterfell and played a role in the north. Since HBO doesn't have much time left (only 8 seasons I believe), I think it will come to pass that they just took the straight path. Obviously I could be wrong.

[Lordsteve666]

It essentially sets up Sansa getting revenge and Theon being pushed too far and bring open to the idea of rebelling against the Boltons when Brienne and Pod coming barreling in later this season.

We have no Mance with his spear wives so this scene is essential to set certain players in motion towards being the show equivalent of them.

The viewers really need to despise Ramsay and this scene really pushed that to the fore.

It was nasty to watch but I think because it focuses more on how it affected Theon than in the act itself it made to best of a bad situation. Compared to the J&C sept rape scene last season which was totally out of character and unneeded this scene was far better done.

[Jimifletch]

Double post.

[Tharvot]

The scene was less graphic than Dany's scene in season 1. With a wedding there must be a bedding, amirite? Frankly, I'd bet many pre-arranged marriages in Westeros culminate similarly. What made the scene so bad to some is the amount of vested interest they have in Sansa. Khal Drogo was a mysterious brute when first introduced, yet he eventually redeemed himself in the eyes of most every viewer. Ramsay isn't going to be redeeming himself, we know already that he is a savage monster, but Sansa's revenge/escape will be made all the more sweeter by the scene.

[Jimifletch]

I think rape is awful. I hated watching the scene. My disgust, however, was no more stirred than it was when reading the fArya scene in the books. Also for the reasons the original poster notes, I can see no logical reason to doubt that D & D included this scene for as valid a purpose, as GRRM did the fArya scene in the books. I will be happy to readjust this point of view at the end of the season, if it serves no purpose.

For those of you interested in context and the whole medieval morality angle. I will link you to the 1992 UK House of Lords judgment in R v. R [1992] 1 AC 599, http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1991/12.html. This was the first time the highest court in England recognised that it was legally possible for a husband to rape a wife. In raising this I am making no normative statement intended to justify the scene. Rather, I am highlighting the fact that in the UK this would have only been legally classified as rape within the past 23 years. A horrible blot on the English legal system.

[Trinket2]

Sure, it's definitely necessary. GRRM and D&D should have had Ned Stark raped for character development too, to make Robb even more keen to get revenge. It's absolutely a necessity, I can't believe they skipped that. You know, because rape is great for creating a driving force for revenge.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't see the necessity at all.

Sansa has plenty of reasons to want revenge on the Boltons without the rape : they betrayed and murdered her mother and brother and stole her home.

And making her violation a spur for Theon is just sick-not only because you're using a woman's pain to further a man's story but because Theon has like Sansa already suffered enough without needing this additional spur.

[Tharvot]

The scene was less graphic than Dany's scene in season 1. With a wedding there must be a bedding, amirite? Frankly, I'd bet many pre-arranged marriages in Westeros culminate similarly. What made the scene so bad to some is the amount of vested interest they have in Sansa. Khal Drogo was a mysterious brute when first introduced, yet he eventually redeemed himself in the eyes of most every viewer. Ramsay isn't going to be redeeming himself, we know already that he is a savage monster, but Sansa's revenge/escape will be made all the more sweeter by the scene.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The scene was less graphic than Dany's scene in season 1. With a wedding there must be a bedding, amirite? Frankly, I'd bet many pre-arranged marriages in Westeros culminate similarly. What made the scene so bad to some is the amount of vested interest they have in Sansa. Khal Drogo was a mysterious brute when first introduced, yet he eventually redeemed himself in the eyes of most every viewer. Ramsay isn't going to be redeeming himself, we know already that he is a savage monster, but Sansa's revenge/escape will be made all the more sweeter by the scene.

Actually I think this was a pretty big underlying point or reason in the Courtly Love literature, especially Marie de France.

[Winter's Knight]

Sure, it's definitely necessary. GRRM and D&D should have had Ned Stark raped for character development too, to make Robb even more keen to get revenge. It's absolutely a necessity, I can't believe they skipped that. You know, because rape is great for creating a driving force for revenge.

You know who should've been a victim pf sexual assault? Jon Snow:pretty kid in a millitary order where sex with women is discouraged and a reasonable portion of the members are rapists.

Yet nobody argues for realism there.

[aFeastForDragons]

Theon better start getting some character redemption after this. Only 4 episode left.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

The scene was less graphic than Dany's scene in season 1. With a wedding there must be a bedding, amirite? Frankly, I'd bet many pre-arranged marriages in Westeros culminate similarly. What made the scene so bad to some is the amount of vested interest they have in Sansa. Khal Drogo was a mysterious brute when first introduced, yet he eventually redeemed himself in the eyes of most every viewer. Ramsay isn't going to be redeeming himself, we know already that he is a savage monster, but Sansa's revenge/escape will be made all the more sweeter by the scene.

Good call about Dany's scene. The only thing i'll say to that is that scene for scene, yeah, Dany's was probably worse - given the savages raping and killing each other, then pretty much a like for like bedding at the end of it. The thing is though, at that early point we didn't really care about anyone, and it seemed like things could only get better for Dany from that point. Not to mention all the girl boners for Khal Drogo.

With the Sansa scene, we've seen her dodge dicks the whole show, only to have it all come unstuck like that. Plus unlike Dany, this seems like only the beginning for Sansa.

I'll say one thing for it, D&D certainly got the reaction they wanted.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

DP

[chambraigne]

So the thread on "that scene" was getting a bit exhaustive, so I wanted to round about another discussion about the "necessity" of scenes. I write for a living, and I've written quite a few novels. Now, I'm not such a fan of what D&D are doing, but I do acknowledge that I must treat the books and show as two different entities, now more than ever. With that being said, D&D must tread carefully and make sure that, with their limited time, each scene must build up to something. Every second counts on screen, especially with ten episodes.

This scene certainly had necessity. Sansa is alienated in Winterfell, for sure. It seems like everyone around her has committed a crime against her family. Theon "killed" her brothers. Ramsay destroyed Theon. Roose stabbed Robb. Walda is related to one of the orchestrators of the Red Wedding. Myranda despises her for this arranged marriage. She surely has no friends in Winterfell, but she demonstrates her independence and will anyways in the bathtub scene. We're rooting for Sansa, clearly.

This scene, as difficult as it is to watch, is the cherry on the cake for Sansa - AND for Theon. I believe that this hammers the nail in Ramsay's coffin. He has gone too far this time. Sansa is clearly symbolic of the North - she is bowed, bent, and broken, literally and figuratively. She is at her worst - even Joffrey wasn't this cruel to her as to seize her virginity via rape. Ramsay now rivals Joffrey in my eyes. Yes, we know Ramsay's bad, but now *he* has hurt a character that we care about.

Many people despised Theon after Season 2; after his torture, things got muddy. Every scene is necessary - it has a purpose, otherwise D&D wouldn't waste time with it. Now, I'm no stark defender of The Powers That Be, but I will defend the necessity of scenes like this. We know the Northern Theatre is building up to a fantastic climax - Sansa, Ramsay, Roose, Theon, Brienne, Podrick, Myranda, Walda, Stannis, Davos, Littlefinger (and maybe Mance? Fingers crossed). Every gruesome scene will make the Battle of Winterfell and the demise of the Boltons that much more satisfying.

Brace yourselves. Revenge is coming.

TL;DR: No scene is unnecessary in working towards a resolution.

I don't know how someone looks at ASOIAF and sees any redemption for the Starks. There hasn't been any so far, why should things change now?

As far as redemption in general, the only redeemed characters so far are Sandor and Jaime, who were both pretty universally reviled before their redemptive turns. I don't think GRRM is interested in redemption from a traditional literary perspective.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't see the necessity at all.

Sansa has plenty of reasons to want revenge on the Boltons without the rape : they betrayed and murdered her mother and brother and stole her home.

And making her violation a spur for Theon is just sick-not only because you're using a woman's pain to further a man's story but because Theon has like Sansa already suffered enough without needing this additional spur.

That scene was more or less apart of Theon's transformation in the books. It is just a different character on screen.

I am not sure that Sansa's plight is furthering Theon's story as much as it is them not wanting to show a graphic scene on tv. Especially one of sensitive nature. I think that is a knee-jerk reaction.

You know who should've been a victim pf sexual assault? Jon Snow:pretty kid in a millitary order where sex with women is discouraged and a reasonable portion of the members are rapists.

Yet nobody argues for realism there.

If that actually happened in the text and had an effect on the story, I would say yes be equal about it. But it did not. Ramsay did abuse J. Poole, however.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

You know who should've been a victim pf sexual assault? Jon Snow:pretty kid in a millitary order where sex with women is discouraged and a reasonable portion of the members are rapists.

Yet nobody argues for realism there.

Hahaha I can just imagine Alister Thorne, "you don't know cold, now open up that pretty mouth of yours and i'll show you cold"

[JonisHenryTudor]

Hahaha I can just imagine Alister Thorne, "you don't know cold, now open up that pretty mouth of yours and i'll show you cold"

Oh hell......