The "Necessity" of Scenes Like That

[clawson24]

Did all ASoIaF fans get together secretly this past weekend and decide to work the word "agency" into every post possible? My goodness.

[+cassius]

OP

Some thoughts:

For all the obvious reasons, I can totally appreciate why people are reacting to that scene the way they are. With all due respect to that, I thought it was a crushing, incredibly powerful scene. Its impact reminded me a lot of the climactic montage in the film "Requiem for a Dream". In that sequence, each of the main characters reaches their terrifying nadir, which is deliberately shot and scored in such a way as to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible. It's a sequence that stays with you long after you've seen it.

Now, was it necessary? I don't know that you can argue for the necessity of that specific scene, but the nature of her relationship with Ramsey will set up events to follow. From here I'm speculating:

1) It will be impetus for Sansa to get the hell out of Winterfell.

She agreed to go there, albeit reluctantly, because she trusted LF. She knew that these were the people that betrayed her family but LF convinced her that it would be for the best because she'd be safe from Cersei and she'd be home. I don't think either she (or LF) suspected that Ramsey would be Joffrey 2.0. The kennel masters daughter isn't being very friendly either. I believe a confrontation is being set up there. Obviously the Sansa and Brienne storylines will intersect again.

2) it confirms Ramsey as a sociopath.

This might be beating a dead horse but not necessarily. There was a brief indication (contrary to the books) that he might restrain himself where Sansa was concerned. His father has repeatedly chastised him for his behavior this season and has made it very clear that Sansa is a critical component in their dominion over the north. For the most part, Ramsey has behaved himself vis-a-vis Sansa right up to the bedding. But Ramsey is what he is. He can't show restraint. It's not simply the forced sex act, which is vile in itself, but it's also the simultaneous degradation and humiliation of Sansa and Reek that adds an extra dimension of horror to it (people seem to be overlooking this). Reek also knows full well what happens to people who displease Ramsey.

3) It could set up further tension between Ramsey and Roose.

As I said, Roose has chastised Ramsey several times this season for his behavior. This actually goes back to last season when Roose finds out Ramsey has been flaying Theon. Not because he cares for Theon at all, but because he "needed him whole" to use him as a barganing tool to get the Iron Born out of the north. Roose grudgingly forgives this when "Reek" demonstrates his utility by providing intelligence on the Stark boys and is instrumental in retaking Moat Calin. Is Sansa's case, Roose also does not care about her any more than Tywin did, but she's a lot more important to Roose than she ever was to Tywin. Stories of Ramsay abusing the last Daughter of House Stark will jeopardize their already tenuous dominion over the north and could have the effect of straining an already less-than-perfect relationship between Roose and Ramsey. The fact that Walda is carrying Ramsey's potential replacement should not be lost on anyone.

4) It could be the catalyst for the return of "Theon".

To be clear, I'm not talking about "empowerment through rape" , which has been discussed a lot in some of the other threads. I'm talking about empathy for the suffering of another person, particularly someone as familiar to Theon as Sansa.

yup

[TheCasualObserver]

Necessary for this plotline? Probably. Was the plotline itself necessary? No. But the showrunners loved this part of the story and were eager to bring it to the screen.

I'm going to take a shower.

[ummester]

Sansa is not real. Things that happen to her happen because someone wants them to, either GRRM or D&D. GRRM decided to have this girl to show rebellion and resist despite she faced terrible circumstances. D&D decided her to be a victim and a martyr by having a guy raping her, while that rape served nothing but a device for him to redeem.

This is the difference between Jeyne Poole and Sansa. Jeyne was a secondary character. She is a plot device. Mostly secondary characters are plot devices. Sansa is a main character whose rape was meant to serve as a plot device. See the difference? There was no need for the last, at least in Sansa's case except shock value.

In an ensemble of characters as large as ASoIaF/GoTs, primary characters also become plot devices. There is only one plot, which has 3,4 or even potentially 5 Azor Ahai's, so I would say the plot in this saga trumps any character for overall narrative importance.

Besides all of this, Sansa is a kind of middling character. She's not Jon, Dany, Tryion, Arya or Bran levels of importance. I don't even think she is Jamie levels of importance to the overall plot. Perhaps Cerise or Stannis levels? A second tier character, in this saga, anyway.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Necessary for this plotline? Probably. Was the plotline itself necessary? No.

Exactly the point.

[TheReal_Rebel]

dp

[TheReal_Rebel]

Also. Showing this character being consistently abused when not having done anything to warrant such treatment unlike Theon, is to make a perpetual victim.

That is what many are reacting to.

Jeyne and Sansa are different characters and making Sansa into Jeyne makes for dubious for character motivation.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

I love the Sansa plot on thos season, it's easily my favorite arc.

What happened, happened. No sense of crying over it.

Will it break her? Absolutely not. In fact, I think it's what will change her. For the better. She'll get out of Winterfell.

[kn1tt3r]

If they put Sansa in the place she is now (i.e. bride to Ramsay in Winterfell), they also have to show this scene. And I think it was very gracefully handled.

[Nefertari]

It think it made sense to have the sense, considering how Sansa replaces Jeyne Poole and how they had already established Ramsay as a sadistic, psychopathic rapist. Ramsay not forcing himself on his wedding night or Sansa giving consent would have both felt out of character for all parties involved.

The show's goal is to tell a story and to provoke emotions in the viewers, be they negative or positive, I don't think the viewers need to be coddled. If one cannot handle gritty, disturbing images, one should not actively follow a show that conveyed them plenty of times already.

What really baffles me is people both here and elsewhere arguing that Sansa agreeing to the marriage meant consent, I don't know if people are being mean-spiritedly facetious or if they really think that, but it was obviously rape.

I agree with everything.

About the "sansa agreeing the marriage", that is a argument i used, it's meant "in universe".

I mean, people were saying that North people wouldn't be too happy about what happened to Sansa, and i thought it was no sense, because what happened to Sansa *in Universe* is not too much uncommon, she accepted the marriage, Ramsay wanted to consumate it that night.

We can argue that even the typical bedding ceremony is a form of violence, because honesty, being undressed by a mobs and being forced in bed is violence- but *in universe* is simply common and accepted.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

She`s had her wedding, and every wedding needs a bedding. Having Theon watch gives ramsay a witness that the marriage is consumated and therefore legal. I really don`t see the big deal in the scene. Westeros is a mans world and just because people want to see good things for Sansa, tough. Good things don`t always happen to good people, Game of Thrones is a testament to this.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I agree with everything.

About the "sansa agreeing the marriage", that is a argument i used, it's meant "in universe".

I mean, people were saying that North people wouldn't be too happy about what happened to Sansa, and i thought it was no sense, because what happened to Sansa *in Universe* is not too much uncommon, she accepted the marriage, Ramsay wanted to consumate it that night.

We can argue that even the typical bedding ceremony is a form of violence, because honesty, being undressed by a mobs and being forced in bed is violence- but *in universe* is simply common and accepted.

Interestingly, if you go back to the RW (show) and Robb is talking to Talisa (sp?), there is that short commentary on the bedding ceremony and how it is tradition. There is an interesting comparison here. These are the only two bedding scenes we have in the show (book?), both end terribly for the Starks... But to the conversation. Talisa, if you recall, complains about the barbarism of the act, while Robb leans on the "it's a tradition" argument. Obviously Robb made the comment under the assumption that both parties were willing. Now to this episode, we have something very different at work than had occurred at the Twins.

I think the realm would accept the RW bedding, but I am not sure the realm would accept the Winterfell bedding. Edmure's marriage was "willing" whereas Sansa was sort of a hostage with no real choice. She could have denied, but the end results? At any rate, it is an interesting comparison between the two scenes.

[Mladen]

Will it break her? Absolutely not. In fact, I think it's what will change her. For the better. She'll get out of Winterfell.

Rape will change her for the better? This has to be a slogan...

I mean, are we seriously discussing this? Are we seriously entered the area where we are totally OK with raping minor girls (Sansa is around 15 according to the show canon) in order to make someone "better" version of themselves? Is that the goal and message of this show? That rape is an experience that can transform your life and make it better? That the story of empowerment, the second one in this series (after Dany's) AGAIN has a rape in it. Is this how a piece of work whose moral speaks about equality and empowerment should be adapted?

And, after all, are we seriously buying this crap in 21st century?

[Johnsmith]

What violence in the scene, did he physically hit her, basing whatever arguement upon her humiilation. Humilation she has submitted herself to, therefore seen attempting to undress.

Hadn't she agreed, hadn't she had knowledge of, seen from Myranda, her gloating upon her new status, knowing her future husband has had girlfriends. Later smiling when saying I do takie Ramsey for a Husband. They even talked about her virginity beforehand. She asks Theon to leave, Ramsey said for Theon to stay. He orders her to undress, she starts to undress slowly, he rips the dress proceeding to have sex, she has tears.

However at no point has she tried to fully resist, at no point has anything happened outside of intercourse, be it of a deviant nature.

I think a lot of people need to really grow up.

The way that sceen would have shown RAPE although that would not be the legal term upon a marital wedding night, it would be termed SEXUAL ASSUALT. Would have been shown, as is if he had struck her, as she argued about undressing or had refused to undress. THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. She had submitted and at no point, did she scream, or try to resist his sexual advances.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Rape will change her for the better? This has to be a slogan...

I mean, are we seriously discussing this? Are we seriously entered the area where we are totally OK with raping minor girls (Sansa is around 15 according to the show canon) in order to make someone "better" version of themselves? Is that the goal and message of this show? That rape is an experience that can transform your life and make it better? That the story of empowerment, the second one in this series (after Dany's) AGAIN has a rape in it. Is this how a piece of work whose moral speaks about equality and empowerment should be adapted?

And, after all, are we seriously buying this crap in 21st century?

I doubt that. To be honest, I think the show has a powerful message. Not only is the scene uncomfortable and brutal, but it sends a pretty harsh message about the realities of rape. It destroys people. What they do after this episode, I think, will render the scene important or it will not. Not long after 9/11 and the Iraq war, a few people made important comments along the lines that if people saw the realities of war, they would not be so quick to vote for war.

I mentioned elsewhere that this scene will change her, but not necessarily for the better. I think it is the final blow that turns Sansa into something more ruthless. Some have already suggested a LS figure, but I don't know...

[Vvornth]

Was Theon really crying out of despair though? I figure it was tears of joy at Sansa becoming a woman, also you can see him shuddering, which hints that’s he’s fapping.

Wouldn't you?

[JonisHenryTudor]

What violence in the scene, did he physically hit her, basing whatever arguement upon her humiilation. Humilation she has submitted herself to, therefore seen attempting to undress.

Hadn't she agreed, hadn't she had knowledge of, seen from Myranda, her gloating upon her new status, knowing her future husband has had girlfriends. Later smiling when saying I do takie Ramsey for a Husband. They even talked about her virginity beforehand. She asks Theon to leave, Ramsey said for Theon to stay. He orders her to undress, she starts to undress slowly, he rips the dress proceeding to have sex, she has tears.

However at no point has she tried to fully resist, at no point has anything happened outside of intercourse, be it of a deviant nature.

I think a lot of people need to really grow up.

The way that sceen would have shown RAPE although that would not be the legal term upon a marital wedding night, it would be termed SEXUAL ASSUALT. Would have been shown, as is if he had struck her, as she argued about undressing or had refused to undress. THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. She had submitted and at no point, did she scream, or try to resist his sexual advances.

I am not really uneasy over stuff, especially since I have seen far worse atrocities in historical manuscripts and this is fantasy.

However, Sansa did not have much of a choice. If she refused, they may not have killed her; but they certainly would have forced the marriage, and perhaps the entire things would have been much more violent.

Sansa was surrounded by enemies, and based on her experience at court she may not have trusted those who pretended to offer her aid (i.e. the maid). So to say she accepted this is kind of leaving out the point that she really had few options. If she declined, it wasn't like Ramsay and Roose would allow her to walk out of the keep and onto CB.

I am guessing she played the "dutiful" courtier and accepted her fate to save her life. It was probably fresh in her mind that Stannis marched on Winterfell, and she perhaps leaned on that for support. "It will all be over soon" kind of thought process.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Was Theon really crying out of despair though? I figure it was tears of joy at Sansa becoming a woman, also you can see him shuddering, which hints that’s he’s fapping.

Wouldn't you?

Yes he was genuinely crying. If you have not read DwD, I will not spoil it but you should.

[scotcat]

As soon as they put Sansa in the position of marrying Ramsay, this scene had to be shown.

In fact, I felt the show dealt with this rape very well. Take a look at some of what we've already seen on the show - particularly when it comes to Ramsay. This was neither prolonged nor gratuitous.

Sophie Turner is still a teenager and I think the way they chose to do this scene was absolutely the right choice, while still displaying the realities of wedded life for many Westerosi women.

[scotcat]

As soon as they put Sansa in the position of marrying Ramsay, this scene had to be shown.

In fact, I felt the show dealt with this rape very well. Take a look at some of what we've already seen on the show - particularly when it comes to Ramsay. This was neither prolonged nor gratuitous.

Sophie Turner is still a teenager and I think the way they chose to do this scene was absolutely the right choice, while still displaying the realities of wedded life for many Westerosi women.