The "Necessity" of Scenes Like That

[ummester]

Hahaha now we're getting somewhere. The Dwarfs forged the chains in that story too, which isn't dissimilar to the blackwater. Though the way i've heard the story, Tyr sacrificed his hand to Fenrir in order to keep him chained up. I haven't heard the jaw ripping version.

Tyr sacrificed his hand to put Fenrir in chains and then, during the Ragnarok (Long Night?) Fenrir gets free and they fight to the death. Have a search for ASoIaF = Ragnarok if you aren't afraid of (potentially) massive spoilers.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Tyr sacrificed his hand to put Fenrir in chains and then, during the Ragnarok (Long Night?) Fenrir gets free and they fight to the death. Have a search for ASoIaF = Ragnarok if you aren't afraid of (potentially) massive spoilers.

Not at all mate, i'll do that.

[Winter's Knight]

Some damn silly full stops and commas would have made that less painful.

Ja sorry. Will edit when I wake up.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Maybe she can bring Ramsay's Bolton to Qyburn and he can put it on Theon. ;)

or find a cock merchant to sell it too.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Maybe she can bring Ramsay's Bolton to Qyburn and he can put it on Theon. ;)

or find a cock merchant to sell it too.

[ummester]

Not at all mate, i'll do that.

Just be aware, I don't think it is going to be one for one Ragnarok - I think GRRM is drawing on a lot of mythological sources (as all fantasy writers do). The basis of all narrative mythology, as far as we know, are the Proto Indo European myths, which are similar to the old Nordic myths - their deity's have a lot of duality and the story's resolve with an end times.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Ja sorry. Will edit when I wake up.

I'm only yanking your chain. Don't change anything on my account.

[GoldHandTheGood]

I actually agree with this, and it fits with the direction that they seem to be taking. I think it is important to sometimes view the scenes for their purpose rather than interject personal social arguments that oftentimes are out of place and perhaps out of touch. That scene put both the act and individual in a very negative light, and it was not a celebration of his character or the act; instead it shows the brutality of both the era and the individual character.

Ramsay has come off as a nasty bit of work, but that scene, I think puts Ramsay in an entirely new category of sadistic. As you pointed out, this was done to a character many of us adore, either for her individual character or the house she belongs to, and that has much more of an effect on our emotions than the (f)Arya scene in DwD.

The consequence of that scene will have an interesting affect on the average viewer. If there were a poll, my guess would be that Stannis' approval rating just went through the roof. Now people are going to tune in to see if Sansa gets her revenge and how.

:agree:

[rocksniffer]

I think the Others, Bran, Jon, Arya, Dany, her dragons and probably Tyrion, are going to work together to cleanse Westeros of the human scum that remains - Bolton's, Freys, Lannisters and whoever ends up on their side. But, I also think its going to play out in a way that we are not sure who we should be siding with - as Jamie redeems, so does Bran become monstrous. There won't be any heroes, just sides, some of which have the power to employ darkly magical elements.

We probably won't feel sorry for Ramsay when he is surrounded by wrights and Others, but I think we'll feel sorry for Jamie when he fights Summer to the death of them both.

i'd pay to see any of that...

I don't think a scene has to be necessary in order to be included. Was Pod's sexual competence necessary? was the whole BWB necessary? The scene was perfectly logical within the world in which it took place, if anything not having it would have been weird.

Also, i don't quite the argument that a woman (Sansa) is being made to suffer is being changed to move male character's storyline (Theon) makes this automatically a bad thing from a storytelling perspective. Isn't this essensially a mirror image of Drogo's death to propel Dany?

As mentioned earlier this whole thing makes Sansa and Theon more likely to put their differences aside, ending in Theon's revelation to Sansa that he did not kill 'their' brothers and their escape. Sounds good to me.

Lastly, this story arc also creates the obvious desire in the audience for a payoff (revenge), but in the world of ASOIAF/GOT, we should know by now that it wont necessarily happen.

well said...i agree

or find a cock merchant to sell it too.

or find a cock merchant to sell it too.

this is the first real comment i have read in weeks that was worth posting twice, even if by accident...

:cheers:

[GoldHandTheGood]

It think it made sense to have the sense, considering how Sansa replaces Jeyne Poole and how they had already established Ramsay as a sadistic, psychopathic rapist. Ramsay not forcing himself on his wedding night or Sansa giving consent would have both felt out of character for all parties involved.

The show's goal is to tell a story and to provoke emotions in the viewers, be they negative or positive, I don't think the viewers need to be coddled. If one cannot handle gritty, disturbing images, one should not actively follow a show that conveyed them plenty of times already.

What really baffles me is people both here and elsewhere arguing that Sansa agreeing to the marriage meant consent, I don't know if people are being mean-spiritedly facetious or if they really think that, but it was obviously rape.

Very well said :) .

[of man and wolf]

That's a really good theory umm. Jamie is gonna need a better glove if he's gonna fight Summer. he's not going to have much to offer if he's cacky handed.

Summer makes short work of Jamie, pre or post loss of hand.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

OP

Some thoughts:

For all the obvious reasons, I can totally appreciate why people are reacting to that scene the way they are. With all due respect to that, I thought it was a crushing, incredibly powerful scene. Its impact reminded me a lot of the climactic montage in the film "Requiem for a Dream". In that sequence, each of the main characters reaches their terrifying nadir, which is deliberately shot and scored in such a way as to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible. It's a sequence that stays with you long after you've seen it.

Now, was it necessary? I don't know that you can argue for the necessity of that specific scene, but the nature of her relationship with Ramsey will set up events to follow. From here I'm speculating:

1) It will be impetus for Sansa to get the hell out of Winterfell.

She agreed to go there, albeit reluctantly, because she trusted LF. She knew that these were the people that betrayed her family but LF convinced her that it would be for the best because she'd be safe from Cersei and she'd be home. I don't think either she (or LF) suspected that Ramsey would be Joffrey 2.0. The kennel masters daughter isn't being very friendly either. I believe a confrontation is being set up there. Obviously the Sansa and Brienne storylines will intersect again.

2) it confirms Ramsey as a sociopath.

This might be beating a dead horse but not necessarily. There was a brief indication (contrary to the books) that he might restrain himself where Sansa was concerned. His father has repeatedly chastised him for his behavior this season and has made it very clear that Sansa is a critical component in their dominion over the north. For the most part, Ramsey has behaved himself vis-a-vis Sansa right up to the bedding. But Ramsey is what he is. He can't show restraint. It's not simply the forced sex act, which is vile in itself, but it's also the simultaneous degradation and humiliation of Sansa and Reek that adds an extra dimension of horror to it (people seem to be overlooking this). Reek also knows full well what happens to people who displease Ramsey.

3) It could set up further tension between Ramsey and Roose.

As I said, Roose has chastised Ramsey several times this season for his behavior. This actually goes back to last season when Roose finds out Ramsey has been flaying Theon. Not because he cares for Theon at all, but because he "needed him whole" to use him as a barganing tool to get the Iron Born out of the north. Roose grudgingly forgives this when "Reek" demonstrates his utility by providing intelligence on the Stark boys and is instrumental in retaking Moat Calin. Is Sansa's case, Roose also does not care about her any more than Tywin did, but she's a lot more important to Roose than she ever was to Tywin. Stories of Ramsay abusing the last Daughter of House Stark will jeopardize their already tenuous dominion over the north and could have the effect of straining an already less-than-perfect relationship between Roose and Ramsey. The fact that Walda is carrying Ramsey's potential replacement should not be lost on anyone.

4) It could be the catalyst for the return of "Theon".

To be clear, I'm not talking about "empowerment through rape" , which has been discussed a lot in some of the other threads. I'm talking about empathy for the suffering of another person, particularly someone as familiar to Theon as Sansa.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

I don't see the necessity at all.

Sansa has plenty of reasons to want revenge on the Boltons without the rape : they betrayed and murdered her mother and brother and stole her home.

And making her violation a spur for Theon is just sick-not only because you're using a woman's pain to further a man's story but because Theon has like Sansa already suffered enough without needing this additional spur.

Oh for crying out loud.

All of this.

[TheReal_Rebel]

moved

[kefln]

OP

Some thoughts:

For all the obvious reasons, I can totally appreciate why people are reacting to that scene the way they are. With all due respect to that, I thought it was a crushing, incredibly powerful scene. Its impact reminded me a lot of the climactic montage in the film "Requiem for a Dream". In that sequence each of the main characters reaches their terrifying nadir and its deliberately shot and scored in such a way as to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible. It's a sequence that stays with you long after you've seen it.

Now, was it necessary? I don't think you can argue for the necessity of that specific scene, but the nature of her relationship with Ramsey will set up events to follow. From here I'm speculating:

1) It will be impetus for Sansa to get the hell out of Winterfell.

She agreed to go there, albeit reluctantly, because she trusted LF. She knew that these were the people that betrayed her family but LF convinced her that it would be for the best because she'd be safe from Cersei and she'd be home. I don't think either she (or LF) suspected that Ramsey would be Joffrey 2.0. The kennel masters daughter isn't being very friendly either. I believe a confrontation is being set up there. Obviously the Sansa and Brienne storylines will intersect again.

2) it confirms Ramsey as a sociopath.

This might be beating a dead horse but not necessarily. There was a brief indication (contrary to the books) that he might restrain himself where Sansa was concerned. His father has repeatedly chastised him for his behavior this season and has made it very clear that Sansa is a critical component in their dominion over the north. For the most part, Ramsey has behaved himself vis-a-vis Sansa right up to the bedding. But Ramsey is what he is. He can't show restraint. It's not simply the forced sex act, which is vile in itself, but it's also the simultaneous degradation and humiliation of Sansa and Reek that adds an extra dimension of horror to it (people seem to be overlooking this). Reek also knows full well what happens to people who displease Ramsey.

3) It could set up further tension between Ramsey and Roose.

As I said, Roose has chastised Ramsey several times this season for his behavior. This actually goes back to last season when Roose finds out Ramsey has been flaying Theon. Not because he cares for Theon at all, but because he "needed him whole" to use him as a barganing tool to get the Iron Born out of the north. Roose grudgingly forgives this when "Reek" demonstrates his utility by providing intelligence on the Stark boys and is instrumental in retaking Moat Calin. Is Sansa's case, Roose also does not care about her any more than Tywin did, but she's a lot more important to Roose than she ever was to Tywin. Stories of Ramsay abusing the last Daughter of House Stark will jeopardize their already tenuous dominion over the north and could have the effect of straining an already less-than-perfect relationship between Roose and Ramsey. The fact that Walda is carrying Ramsey's potential replacement should not be lost on anyone.

4) It could be the catalyst for the return of "Theon".

To be clear, I'm not talking about "empowerment through rape" , which has been discussed a lot in some of the other threads. I'm talking about empathy for the suffering of another person, particularly someone as familiar to Theon as Sansa.

Well said.

[+cassius]

you're delusional if you think the scene's purpose is just for shock value

[The Dragon has three heads]

Good post OP

Let the bleeding hearts whine.

It was tough to watch but you need that sometimes.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Dany's rape was equally horrifying for me as Sansa's.

I think what many are reacting too is the fact that Sansa has yet to be shown on series to take active agency to improve her situation and become powerful in her own right.

I expect that will change.

But the show deviates from what so far we've seen in the books so far. We don't know if the same fate awaits her in the books. Which might drive some away from books as well.

I believe there are some many who hoped Sansa through her wits would avoid what happened to Dany.

But GRRM has not sugar coated the everyday threat and prevalent fact of rape in a savage medieval society exists for all women in every class. A fact which still exists, to a slightly lesser degree--depending where you live--in our own age.

Are "rape" scenes in literature necessary? In "A Streetcar named Desire" it is. Tess of the Durbyvilles.

However, it is used often for cheap titilation in film and TV. Using it for "motivation" for a character's actions is often an excuse for lazy writing.

I would also remind people that Theon was nearly raped in Season 3 and then he was genitally mutilated.

For Theon it serves not as "motivation" for his character, but as "change"in his character and gave show watchers and readers a visceral sense of righteous punishment --" cosmic justice"--for what he did to the Starks yet also made him sympathetic in his suffering.

I expect Sansa's violation will alter her and make her more motivated to escape the Bolton's and LF. Or cause an insurrection at Winterfell some how.

D & D exchaned Jeyne for Sansa for many reasons but was it necessary? She believed LF but did she need to be violated to " motivate a desire to escape?

We have yet to see. I'm not yet convinced.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Summer makes short work of Jamie, pre or post loss of hand.

I was giving him a swordsmans chance. Don't get me wrong I agree with you, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the wolf lunges for the throat and ends up with a sword through the heart for the double KO.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sansa is not real. Things that happen to her happen because someone wants them to, either GRRM or D&D. GRRM decided to have this girl to show rebellion and resist despite she faced terrible circumstances. D&D decided her to be a victim and a martyr by having a guy raping her, while that rape served nothing but a device for him to redeem.

This is the difference between Jeyne Poole and Sansa. Jeyne was a secondary character. She is a plot device. Mostly secondary characters are plot devices. Sansa is a main character whose rape was meant to serve as a plot device. See the difference? There was no need for the last, at least in Sansa's case except shock value.