Are female characters in the ASOIAF judged more harshly than the male ones ?

[sweetsunray]

Welcome to the Forum!

I suppose that you're not wrong, to a degree. It's quite easy to dislike stereotypical "ladies" who may sometimes play the damsel in distress, in a fantasy world that is so reliant on one's own initiative and survivial. Many fans might argue that Sansa or Catelyn might have had more success in their endeavours or even good fortune in their lives, had they taken a page out of a strong female warrior or political player such as Brienne or Olenna Tyrell, rather than simply doing as their bid by their male "superiors".

Euhm, much of the criticism with Catelyn's actions are when she takes initiative. I don't regard Catelyn as a stereotypical Lady at all. She isn't a stereotypical lady. She's wilfull and very strong of character, blunt, has strong opinions and takes actions. She wouldn't fit in with the court of KL or Highgarden. If just she would choose the smart actions, and she reminds me of a boss who takes the task given to you out of your hands to do it herself (or himself) because she doesn't trust you with the task. One of Catelyn's flaws is that she's a micro-manager. She has all the potential for me to like her and admire her, but it's her micro-management and her mistaken opinions that grate me the most about her.

[Winter's Cold]

That's one of my problems with the OP actually: one of the things that is so refreshing about Sansa is that she is not a typical fantasy heroine: I would say female characters who are amazing assassins, warrior are very common heroines in fantasy literature, part of why I find Arya kind of boring. Of course the brilliance of Martin's writing is that he deconstructs the amazing badass warrior tomboy heroine with Arya: she's actually a very traumatised little kid...

I read a lot of books on how to write, and one of the things discussed is character growth as something that separates great literature from 'adventurous romp/romance/genre of your choice'

Character has moral flaws

struggles to overcome

changes at the end.

or doesn't, resulting in tragedy.

So I am trying to put this in my own writing: create a female character with serious character flaws, and have the reader like her and identify with her as much as readers seem to be able to identify with Tyrion.

Yet if we have Sansa as an example-a girl whose worst crime is being a tattle taling queen bee-and she is hated so much by huge portions of the fandom (not here, but other forums from what i can tell)...

What has Sansa done that was heroic? She has betrayed her family and been a pawn of the Lannisters, Tyrells and Littlefinger so far in the book series. Arya being traumatised shows that she's willing to accept reality and not hide from what has happened. Sansa just wishes to delude herself and pretend that everything is all right. This is why she is so easily able to become Alayne Stone. I don't see what's so special about Sansa that elevates her above Jeyne Poole, Margaery, Shireen and Myrcella. The name Stark? The amount of POV chapters? She hasn't done more than any of those other girls and none of them have been as detrimental as Sansa has to her own family.

[COYStars]

Is this thread really about some readers giving female characters an unnecessarily hard time?

Or is it - consistent with many other threads on this MB - about some readers giving male characters - specifically Robert and Tyrion - less of a hard time than others would like us to?

We have the various rape allegations, the abuse allegations, and all the rest.

FWIW, the negativity with which Robert and Tyrion were treated was a real eye opener to me. It never occurred to me to judge them in that way when I read the books. And it still doesn't - I don't agree with the judgments that are passed by some on here against them. That's not my favouring men or male behaviour - there is no parallel on the female side which we consider more harshly, and I ridicule the point of view that says that Cersei (whose heart is black) and Robert (who is blind and unthinking towards consequences and seeks an easy life) are on a par.

I'll judge each character as I find them. But not detesting or condemning Robert and Tyrion in the way that others do doesn't make me a misogynist. It's even pretty clear that, in the context of the attitudes of the day, both Robert and Tyrion were more enlightened as to women's rights than many on here would choose to admit. That's by the by, though.

[COYStars]

So I am trying to put this in my own writing: create a female character with serious character flaws, and have the reader like her and identify with her as much as readers seem to be able to identify with Tyrion.

Yet if we have Sansa as an example-a girl whose worst crime is being a tattle taling queen bee-and she is hated so much by huge portions of the fandom (not here, but other forums from what i can tell)...

There's an awful lot to like about Tyrion.

He's funny and intelligent.

He's willing to make his own mind about things even if they go against established thinking or expediency. So he treats Jon and Shae and Sansa and Bronn with kindness and respect, directly challenges his sister, father and nephew, and isn't sycophantic towards his brother. And his sense of morality is important - his attitude towards the Red Wedding, for example.

In a position where others might think "**** them", he still does what is right for his family and the crown - his command of the defence of KL in the battle of the Blackwater being the prime example, but also in his role of Master of Coin, which he takes seriously and doesn't abuse.

And all of this in the context of a disability for which he is punished regularly, and with a backstory which could have destroyed his self-worth.

Yes, he has flaws and makes mistakes. But the way that he takes everyone as they come and gives everyone a chance is remarkably enlightened and, in context, admirable. And - when he acts upon this despite it exposing him to personal risk - it makes him heroic.

Personally, I don't see much to like about Sansa. She doesn't inspire strong feelings in me. The way she treated Tyrion after they married indicated that she hadn't stopped being a selfish child. I see nothing heroic in her. She's my least favourite of the Starks by far. I see no parallel with Tyrion, who's a much better written character.

[LordStoneheart]

Clearly

[Gregor Clegane's head]

Personally, I don't see much to like about Sansa. She doesn't inspire strong feelings in me. The way she treated Tyrion after they married indicated that she hadn't stopped being a selfish child.

Right. Guess she was totally selfish for not accepting the MASSIVELY ugly deformed alcoholic dwarf who's working against her endangered family and was preparing himself to rape her. Poor Tyrion.

Also Sansa was heroic when she saved Dontos' life.

[David Selig]

Yeah, sure, Tyrion is a great hero, compared to Sansa. He's only murdered a few people and raped a slave or two, but who cares, he's funny!

On the other hand, that jerk Sansa dared not to fall in love with such a paragon of virtue after his family murdered hers and forced her to marry him, that's clearly unforgivable.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

One of the rasons I like Sansa is because she is not a heroine. In fantasy there are often few women and if there are they are typically the heros female badass counterpart. In a typical fantasy "group" you got the hero, the guide, the trusted friend and if there is a female she is typicallt strong, selfless, heroic, humble, confident and serves as the heros love interest. To have characters like Sansa who actually act like normal girls in the setting is actually quite refreshing.

[COYStars]

Right. Guess she was totally selfish for not accepting the MASSIVELY ugly deformed alcoholic dwarf who's working against her endangered family and was preparing himself to rape her. Poor Tyrion.

Also Sansa was heroic when she saved Dontos' life.

He was preparing to rape her - when?

I never said she had to accept him. But she never made any attempt to see him as he was. Selfish child is entirely accurate.

One kind act does not make a hero. Importantly, she didn't stick her neck out particularly far to do so. That's not really heroism to me.

Yeah, sure, Tyrion is a great hero, compared to Sansa. He's only murdered a few people and raped a slave or two, but who cares, he's funny!

On the other hand, that jerk Sansa dared not to fall in love with such a paragon of virtue after his family murdered hers and forced her to marry him, that's clearly unforgivable.

What a strange post.

[David Selig]

I never said she had to accept him. But she never made any attempt to see him as he was.

"See him as he was" as in "a terrible selfish asshole"? Why would Tyrion or his fanboys want that?

[COYStars]

"See him as he was" as in "a terrible selfish asshole"? Why would Tyrion or his fanboys want that?

Ah. I take it that you don't like Tyrion. Nuff said.

Please try not to be so rude and disrespectful as to exaggerate and pervert my posts, if you would be so kind? Many thanks.

[sweetsunray]

One of the rasons I like Sansa is because she is not a heroine. In fantasy there are often few women and if there are they are typically the heros female badass counterpart. In a typical fantasy "group" you got the hero, the guide, the trusted friend and if there is a female she is typicallt strong, selfless, heroic, humble, confident and serves as the heros love interest. To have characters like Sansa who actually act like normal girls in the setting is actually quite refreshing.

???? So, tomboy girls are abnormal girls?

[Gregor Clegane's head]

He was preparing to rape her - when?

On the wedding night, he knew she didn't want to have sex with him but was pushing himself to have sex with her anyway, he doesn't go through with it but only at the very last moment. He was certainly trying to convince himself to rape her.

Also Sansa still manages to feel sorry for him during all this, so you're probably right about her not seeing him for what he really is.

[Lord Freypie]

The two failed to see each other as they were.

Sansa only seen Tyrion as a (vaguely kind) Lannister.

Tyrion only seen Sansa as a (vaguely too young) girl disgusted by his appearance .

[John Doe]

The notion of rape in marriage didn't really exist back then. The show portrayed this well in season 5.

[LordStoneheart]

The two failed to see each other as they were.

Sansa only seen Tyrion as a (vaguely kind) Lannister.

He's a terrible person. She saw him clearly.

The notion of rape in marriage didn't really exist back then.

The "notion" didn't exist. Doesn't mean that's not what it was. If Tyrion had consummated the marriage it would have been rape, no question. In that sexist garbage pile of a show, it was rape, no question.

[COYStars]

On the wedding night, he knew she didn't want to have sex with him but was pushing himself to have sex with her anyway, he doesn't go through with it but only at the very last moment. He was certainly trying to convince himself to rape her.

Also Sansa still manages to feel sorry for him during all this, so you're probably right about her not seeing him for what he really is.

On the basis that it would most likely not have been seen as rape even if he had forced himself upon her, and further that he did the opposite (and not at the very last moment) which is something that I suspect more than 99% of the men in Westeros would not have done, I believe that your point is invalid.

[Lord Freypie]

He's a terrible person. She saw him clearly.

There's no point where she saw him as 'a terrible person', even if it was true (which at ASOS point is very discuttable).

She considered him 1.a Lannister and so not lovable, 2. rather kind for one. She never had any other thoughts about him (out of some mention of his ugliness, or the annoying way he looked at her).

Also note that "kind" is a big euphemism speaking about someone who endangered his position disobeying Tywin, and life opposing the king to protect her, it's not like Tyrion was just polite with no cost for himself.

On Tyrion side, after a while he almost forgot that Sansa attitude had other explanations than his appearance (he takes something Sansa ranks third in her thoughts as her first reason to dislike him, going as far as imagining she's jealous of Margaery as Joff is beautiful).

And globally had as only one excuse for her "unfair" attitude "she's young", mixed with the dream she'll evolve and learn to love him at some point, instead of thinking "she was forcefully married to an enemy, she could be 30 it would be the same".

[Winter's Knight]

He's a terrible person. She saw him clearly.

She doesn't actually. She pities him and calls him "kind"-she's never mean to him, she just refuses to get to know him, which makes these claims about Sansa being cruel so laughable.

[LordStoneheart]

She doesn't actually. She pities him and calls him "kind"-she's never mean to him, she just refuses to get to know him, which makes these claims about Sansa being cruel so laughable.

I know. From Sansa's view he's not as horrible as the readers know him to be, even at this point in asos. But her seeing him as a "Lannister" is not failure on her part, as another suggested. It's the reality of the situation. She was forced into the marriage because of the claim. He went along with the marriage because of the claim, his dreams of a beautiful wife and castle, and was not forced. In my mind, she owed the man who forced himself on her and her inheritance nothing. Not a word. Not an action.