KGs in TOJ?

[Bael's Bastard]

Gerold Hightower was not in control over the situation.

 

IF Aerys commanded Hightower to return Rhaegar to King's Landing, his ability to fulfill this command would have depended on Rhaegar's compliance. If Rhaegar refused to return to King's Landing unless Hightower remained at the TOJ, his options would have been limited.

 

Hightower could have agreed, he could have tried to take Rhaegar by force (possibly against the will of Dayne and Whent), he could have returned to King's Landing empty handed while claiming to have information about Rhaegar he believes Aerys needs (assuming Rhaegar, Dayne, and Whent would have let him).

 

Whatever Hightower's options, I doubt there was any he loved, but remaining at the TOJ while Rhaegar returned to King's Landing may have been the best available to him.

[MtnLion]

By the theory that Hightowers duty is to Aerys (either to protect or obey), if Hightower believed he had information that Aerys needed to know, he would order one of the others to stay with Lyanna and take Rhaegar back to KL himself.

I don't think that hightowers duty to obey Rhaegars orders (such as we even know he has that specific duty) would supersede his duty to get that info to Aerys if suitably important, given that there are three KG available to guard Lyanna.

And if the info wasn't important enough for Hightower to tell Aerys, then We are back to my original question about why Rhaegar would care if Hightower stays at the TOJ.

Nope, there is only one Kingsguard available to guard Lyanna.  Whent and Dayne are Rhaegar's personally assigned bodyguards, and they damn sure are not going to let Rhaegar ride through rebel territory unescorted.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Nope, there is only one Kingsguard available to guard Lyanna.  Whent and Dayne are Rhaegar's personally assigned bodyguards, and they damn sure are not going to let Rhaegar ride through rebel territory unescorted.

Hightower is LC of the kingsguard. If he wants to personally guard Rhaegar instead of delegating that duty, he certainly has that authority. Based on everything we actually know about how the KG works (mostly Jaimes and Arys POV), it appears that it is the primary duty of the LC to decide the specific duties of the KG in guarding the royal family on a day to day basis.

Unless we have specific information that contradicts this, we should go with what the text tells us. At this point the text tells us that Arthur and whent were Rhaegars frienda and his usually assigned body guards, nothing more than that.

I find the other explaination above more convincing. It is a dick move by Rhaegar, but theoretically possible that this was hightowers only hope of getting Rhaegar to KL short of tying him up. I still think that if the information was sufficiently important, Hightower could/would have found another way to inform Aerys. There were other people at the TOJ, he could have sent a messenger.

So, I think it makes much more sense that Hightower was brought around to Rhaegars way of thinking than that he was made to stay by Rhaegar by force. Just doesn't seem in character or rational behavior for anyone involved.

[UnViserion]

Just doesn't seem in character or rational behavior for anyone involved.

You could say that about the entire R + L = Love & Polygamy theory. Lyanna didn't like the idea of Robert not staying to one bed when wed, then runs off with a married man herself. And Rhaegar is supposed to be intelligent and dutiful, but he hatches a stupid plan and neglects his duty to Elia and the children. The whole thing is completely out of character for them.

Hightower was not likely to be 'convinced' of anything by Rhaegar either, from what we know of him. He stood by silently when the King raped the Queen, he stood by when Brandon and Rickard Stark were killed by the king, he claims Aerys would still sit the Iron Throne had he been present and that Jaime would be dead instead. He demonstrates an unfailing pattern of neglecting to do the right thing so long as Aerys is the one doling out the sadism. Either he acted on Aerys orders by sending Rhaegar to KL and staying behind to guard Lyanna (assuming she was a royal prisoner) or was coerced into it by Rhaegar refusing to leave unless the he stayed behind.

[Fox Mulder]

You could say that about the entire R + L = Love & Polygamy theory. Lyanna didn't like the idea of Robert not staying to one bed when wed, then runs off with a married man herself. And Rhaegar is supposed to be intelligent and dutiful, but he hatches a stupid plan and neglects his duty to Elia and the children. The whole thing is completely out of character for them.

Hightower was not likely to be 'convinced' of anything by Rhaegar either, from what we know of him. He stood by silently when the King raped the Queen, he stood by when Brandon and Rickard Stark were killed by the king, he claims Aerys would still sit the Iron Throne had he been present and that Jaime would be dead instead. He demonstrates an unfailing pattern of neglecting to do the right thing so long as Aerys is the one doling out the sadism. Either he acted on Aerys orders by sending Rhaegar to KL and staying behind to guard Lyanna (assuming she was a royal prisoner) or was coerced into it by Rhaegar refusing to leave unless the he stayed behind.

You know there are a lot of things that bother me about R+L=J (even though I believe it and actually want it to be true) but that bit of hypocrisy hadn't occurred to me before. Bride to be has a problem with future husband being a philanderer so what does she do? She runs off with somebody else's husband that is a philanderer. I never got why if Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was consensual they would keep it a secret, they had to know it would start a war.

 

I have my own tinfoil hat theory that I remember reading about somewhere. That is that LF somehow manipulated Brandon into thinking Lyanna was kidnapped because he knew Brandon was  a hothead and would get himself killed by the Mad King as his revenge. Do not know how he did it, maybe R and L's runaway note was destroyed by a servant on LF payroll or something. Not sure how, but it would have been a brilliant move by LF and would have explained why if R+L=J was consensual they wouldn't let the Stark family know they ran off together in order to prevent a likely war. 

[Blackfish Tully]

You know there are a lot of things that bother me about R+L=J (even though I believe it and actually want it to be true) but that bit of hypocrisy hadn't occurred to me before. Bride to be has a problem with future husband being a philanderer so what does she do? She runs off with somebody else's husband that is a philanderer. I never got why if Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was consensual they would keep it a secret, they had to know it would start a war.

 

 

 

Actually the did not know it would start a war . If Brandon does not go to Kings Landing or Aery does not burn him and Rickard then there would have been no war . Rhaegar knew there would be trouble but he assumed he could sort it out once he had his PTWP. 

[UnViserion]

 
Actually the did not know it would start a war . If Brandon does not go to Kings Landing or Aery does not burn him and Rickard then there would have been no war . Rhaegar knew there would be trouble but he assumed he could sort it out once he had his PTWP. 

Well maybe they shoulda planned ahead then. For cryin out loud how can one suspend belief to the point where this guy isn't an arrogant ass for leaving his wife and creating a situation where his paranoid, insane father is dealing with a an aggressive, hot headed subordinate?

It's so messed up. There is nothing beautiful about this love story. Reckless, arrogant and vain all the way around.

[UnViserion]

And furthermore you have no idea if there would have been war or not. The Targs were a spent force, the Prince just ran off with the Warden of the Norths Daughter and the Lord of the Stormlands betrothed. Anybody who understands how the game is played knows what a huuuge overstep this was.

[UnViserion]

anyone care to discuss this further?