What Howland Reed Knows

[Curled Finger]

Howland Reed is one of the greatest mysteries of the series.   We are told so much through other characters but have yet to see him.   A Crannogman, descendant of the Marsh Kings, guerilla soldier who lives on a moving island in marshes populated with deadly unseen things and land.   His travels include The Isle of Faces where he studied with Green Men and The Tower of Joy where he either witnessed or participated in the end of a celebrated Kings Guard and the birth of a King.   A worshipper of the Old Gods, Howland likely has green powers in seeing or dreaming like his son Jojen.  A loyal bannerman, he holds The Neck at the command of the Young Wolf and knows his King and liege lords have been all but destroyed.   We will soon find out if he is also an hospitable host to his visitors from Robb’s council.   As it unfolds we will see the extent of the information Howland Reed possesses will put Little Finger and Varys to shame.  Why does this little man have so much knowledge?   Is his close association with Ned Stark a result of his training on the Isle of Faces?  Has he positioned himself to be in the thick of the birth and circumstances of the song of ice and fire? 

Howland has multiple pieces of game changing information that will play large in the events about to unfold.  He knows Bran is alive as he sent his children to aid in finding the 3EC.   He knows Jon Snow is Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryan’s son.  It is popularly believed that he’s got Robb’s will or fair  knowledge of it and all that entails: legitimizing Jon Snow, releasing Jon from his vows to the Nights Watch, appointing him KITN and making Jon heir to Winterfell. He probably knows why Ned had to take Dawn back to the Daynes—he may even know exactly how they and Dawn play into all this. He may know what Lyanna made Ned promise.  Great.   Now what’s he supposed to say when we finally meet him? 

Each piece of information Howland has trumps the next.   Robb’s will is essentially nullified by both Bran living and Jon not being Ned Stark’s son.   How dangerous would it be for all The North’s plans to simply tell the truth—Rickon can’t be Lord of Winterfell and Jon can’t be a true Stark.   Will The North rally behind another Targ?   Will Howland give Jon a choice of identities?    What will Stannis do with a Targ partner?  What will Manderly do when Rickon can’t be their Stark in Winterfell?  How does any of this affect the Wildlings’ loyalty to Jon and desire to move south? What of Ned’s bones and the host who were escorting them?  Does Jon’s being a cousin as opposed to bastard brother affect the remaining Stark children? 

I offer that whatever Howland Reed discloses will change the entire game both end and of thrones.   Let’s try not to get caught up in arguments about wills & decrees versus birthrights.   He’s got a lot more information than we do.   What he does with it will impact all of Westeros.   What does Howland Reed know? 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Howland telling everyone that Bran is alive doesn't nullify any plot to establish Rickon as Lord of Winterfell. As long as Bran is MIA, Rickon can effectively be their Stark in Winterfell. Plus, Bran's claim may trump his, but Rickon's still trumps Arya's (or "Arya's")

[none-for-joffrey]

im very much looking forward to hearing everything Howland knows about previous and current events, but i dont think it will have much impact at all. 

 the revelation that Roberts about roberts kids didnt seem to effect the politics all that much - outside of stannis.  even if the tyrells, for example, believed it, they wouldnt have done anything to negate their attachment to the throne.  these great houses tend to do what they want to further themsleves. if its best for them to support a targeryan or a stark or a fake targ or a scarecrow for that matter, thats what they'll do.

[Curled Finger]

Right.   I'm just interested in all the possible ways Howland Reed could turn everything I suppose upside down.   In this vein, assuming HR has green powers and knows Bran is alive and perhaps even where he is, isn't it possible he could throw a wrench into the plan to install Rickon--or Jon or fArya?   I think he could pull all the teeth out of Manderly's grand design.   Of course, I see no reason for HR to do this, but I am currently fascinated by all the potential this guy has.   I'm finding it curious that HR has seen all this Stark death and Winterfell without a Stark and can't help but wonder why he hasn't come forward yet.   What is he actually waiting for? 

[Megaera]

Having knowledge is no good if you cant get people to believe it. Especially if what is revealed goes against their interests.

[Good Guy Garlan]

If Manderly/Davos successfully retrieve Rickon from Skaagos first, then it won't matter what Howland knows. Rickon is there, Bran is not, that's all that matters.

[Curled Finger]

Having knowledge is no good if you cant get people to believe it. Especially if what is revealed goes against their interests.

This is the juicy part.  No one seems to be concerned with HR or even to like the Cranogmen.   Why would anyone listen to anything HR has to say?   The only thing I can come up with is he's got to have some proof of what he knows.   His whole potential is rendered impotent without proof.   Big undeniable proof.   

 

If Manderly/Davos successfully retrieve Rickon from Skaagos first, then it won't matter what Howland knows. Rickon is there, Bran is not, that's all that matters.

I get it, GGG.   I'm taking the position that HR has an agenda of his own and that he has the potential to screw things up very badly if he so desires.  

im very much looking forward to hearing everything Howland knows about previous and current events, but i dont think it will have much impact at all. 

 the revelation that Roberts about roberts kids didnt seem to effect the politics all that much - outside of stannis.  even if the tyrells, for example, believed it, they wouldnt have done anything to negate their attachment to the throne.  these great houses tend to do what they want to further themsleves. if its best for them to support a targeryan or a stark or a fake targ or a scarecrow for that matter, thats what they'll do.

I would argue that Robert's bastards have had a huge impact on the early story.   You have been given good looks at 3 of the 4 known remaining with the knowledge that they are indeed Robert's bastards.    This knowledge extends beyond events exclusive to Kings Landing.   I assume they will each play some important part later in the story because they are Robert's bastards.   At the very least all the bastards serve as evidence of secret identities.    Surely someone knows that Mya Stone is Robert's child and this should have some bearing on the characters she intersects with at the Vale, perhaps even Sansa.   Politically, the Baratheon bastards may be the only surviving Baratheons who could potentially carry on the blood line if not name.   I don't know, the affiliation of Stark/Tully/Baratheon/Arryn seems to be a force to reckon with and it would be a shame for any of the blood lines to simply stop.   

I hope HR makes his appearance for more than his knowledge of Jon Snow's identity.   

 

 

 

 

[none-for-joffrey]

^ sorry, my first post is quite unclear, i was referring to cersies children, not roberts various bastards. 

'.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

Howland could shed light on what happened at the God’s Eye, tourney at Harrenhal and Robert’s Rebellion.  A word feast. A horn of cornucopia. <drooling>  If Howland shows up whose POV is he going to be in?

[Curled Finger]

Howland could shed light on what happened at the God’s Eye, tourney at Harrenhal and Robert’s Rebellion.  A word feast. A horn of cornucopia. <drooling>  If Howland shows up whose POV is he going to be in?

 

Yep, that's exactly what I'm thinking too.  But I think there is more to what this guy knows.  I suspect very strongly that he knows what exactly the First Pact was, Ned's Promise to Lyanna, Jon's real name and what Bran's role in the grand scheme of things is.   Probably much more...like maybe what Blood Raven is really doing in the cave.   I've been thinking about this for about a month now and conclude that he is someone far more important than his description.  I think where and with whom Rickon rejoins the story will be telling and imagine it will be much the same with Howland Reed.    I think it's most likely he will show up in either Bran or Jon's POVs, but truth is, he could show up anywhere to anyone.    I've tried to take the story from there as much as I could which is why I finally put this out there to see what everyone else thinks.   What POV do YOU think he'll appear in?  

[Good Guy Garlan]

I recently read a theory (I think it was on Reddit?) that Howland's going to show his allegiance to Queen Jeyne of the North and will gather a team of crannogmen to ambush the guards scorting Jeyne and Edmure and will hide them with the Green Men at the God's Eye

[Curled Finger]

Wow, didn't see that coming.  Thanks for that.   Do you buy it?   I love the idea of Crannogmen being the rescuers of Jeyne and Edmure and getting them to the Isle of Faces.  That could answer a whole lot of questions peripherally.    Maybe I just have tunnel vision, but I can't see why HR or any of the Cranngomen would break their silence for a simple rescue of folks who aren't even their countrymen.    But like I supposed above, where and to whom HR reveals himself will be telling.   It would be a good opportunity to showcase their guerrilla tactics.  

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy it, but I guess if someone's going to show us the Isle of Faces it's got to be Howland, so I see him popping up somewhere in the south

[Curled Finger]

Very nice.   Yah, he could show up pretty much anywhere.  You have rekindled my hope that we will actually find something substantial about this very mysterious place.   

[Farstrider]

What Howland Reed knows can have an impact on northern politics but it's not going to have much effect on the south. 

[Nevets]

Howland Reed is definitely one of the more mysterious figures in the series.  I think his appearance will probably serve to inform the readers more than the actual events.

Bran:  Howland Reed has not been in contact with his children since they left for Winterfell, as far as we know.  Certainly not since they disappeared.  As far as he knows, Bran and Rickon are dead, and Jojen and Meera are missing.  They have been in hiding since they left Winterfell.  The mountain clans may know about them, but I doubt they're talking.  As far as current whereabouts, even Jojen's knowledge of their route ended at the Nightfort.  The Manderlys know about Bran's survival, they just don't know where he is, which is why they sent Davos after Rickon.  They need a Stark to put up in opposition to the Boltons.  they don't care which one.

Robb's Will:  Given Jon's likely continued adherence to his NW vows, any legitimization of Jon is likely to be moot, at least for the time being.  Given that it was written based on the premise that Bran and Rickon were dead, it may not matter at all in that regard.  One thing it will do, however, is make it impossible for anyone to rule the North through Sansa, since she was surely disinherited.

Rescue Attempt:  Any rescue attempt of Jeyne and Edmure is, I think, likely to end in disaster.  The escort is very large (400 men), and well led and disciplined, as well as being experienced and, for much of their trip, in friendly territory.  Also, archers have orders to shoot Edmure and maybe Jeyne in the event of a rescue attempt.  I think there is a good possibility of one occurring (probably led by the Blackfish), but I doubt it will succeed.

I think Howland Reed has information on Jon's parentage, and possibly on Lyanna's motives for going with Rhaegar, which would be of interest to readers.  Whether he has any actual proof, is another matter.  I also believe that he is facilitating the movement of northerners through the Neck back to the North after the Red Wedding, and is probably working with the BwB.

When he shows up, he is likely to have an effect, simply for the information he possesses.  He is likely to be important, but probably not a game-changer.

 

[Curled Finger]

What Howland Reed knows can have an impact on northern politics but it's not going to have much effect on the south. 

I think he has more intel than Varys and LF combined.   He knows about much more than just what happened at TOJ, which will/could all by itself have an enormous effect on the south.  

[Nevets]

I think he has more intel than Varys and LF combined.   He knows about much more than just what happened at TOJ, which will/could all by itself have an enormous effect on the south.  

He has considerable intel on historical events, such as the ToJ and Lyanna's abduction..  He also probably has a copy of Robb's will, or knowledge of its contents.  However, I have doubts that he has a great deal of information on current events.  Ravens have no access to Greywater Watch, so he would have difficulty getting current information.

[Curled Finger]

Nevets, thanks for listing some of the things HR knows.   Clarification is always helpful.   Robb's Will vs Jons True Parentage is what got me thinking about all the stuff HR knows or may know.   He is the only character in the entire series who has visited the God's Eye.   That has to tie in with Bran's, the COTF and The Others' stories.   He was at the Tourney at Harrenhall and I think he would know who the KOLT is and why Lyanna was crowned QOL&B--hopefully both those revelations will make the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna thing make some sense.  Although I'm on the fence about Jon's reaction to learning his parentage, I think if this is the big deal HR has been hidden for it will be a huge deal to all Westeros.  I thought it was ironic that Robb sent Mormont & Glover to HR after the royal will was signed.   Which is more important?   I know the actual will was sent elsewhere, but surely the emissaries told HR about it.   So what does HR end up telling Jon or allowing him to learn?  Suppose HR lets Jon and the whole North believe Robb's will matters.   What does anyone do with Jon's real identity?   Does Jon as Robb's heir catch on underground throughout the north so HR make make or allow this bigger reveal?   

Your comments strike me as level headed and I look forward to anything else you have to add here.  

[Curled Finger]

Looks like we were replying at the same time.   I totally understand your position.   Confession time?   Ok.  As I made my list of things HR knows it struck me that he could end up having some stake in withholding information as Varys or LF have using their intel against others.   I can argue this back and forth with myself--is he good, is he bad, why's he got all this info?   Ultimately it comes down to the sheer amount of knowledge HR has about a variety of subjects that impacts far more than Jon Snow.  

As to communication, I can't fathom that HR isn't a green seer or dreamer.   He knows what's going on.   He's got weirwood.  I susbscribe to the Marsh Kings marrying into the COTF and retaining much of their power or magic or whatever it is the COTF have.  At the very least HR speaks the Old Tongue and understands what the trees and rocks are saying.  Even limited to ASOIAF descriptions, the Cranngomen are very different from everyone else.  This guy is connected (too coincidentally I add),