Religion and Atheism

[Kyoshi]

Scot, 

It was a treated as a historical subject--Religious History. Without a tag, as was done with the scientific subjects, which were treated as theories. (Not to mention that it was also taught to the heathen kids and whoever else belonged to another religion).

For the record,  I don't think it's accurate to heap the blame of science vs religion solely at the feet of the so called new atheists. I think theists are just as guilty of that. In my experience, people always want to know what I believe in in place of god. They are the ones who want to attach some tangible belief system to me. Science is often the first thing they mention because being atheist, I must obviously be arrogant enough to imagine myself all knowing, with science as my well of this supposed knowledge. Satanism always follows as the second option because surely, if I've renounced the lord, I must have accepted the devil as my saviour.

[Grimbold]

 

.In my experience, people always want to know what I believe in in place of god. They are the ones who want to attach some tangible belief system to me. Science is often the first thing they mention because being atheist, I must obviously be arrogant enough to imagine myself all knowing, with science as my well of this supposed knowledge. Satanism always follows as the second option because surely, if I've renounced the lord, I must have accepted the devil as my saviour.

This is the case when one engages in such a discussion with one of the, let's say, less educated religious individuals.

My immediate response to that is: none, what makes you think that i require a belief in a supernatural entity to live my life? It's almost always followed by "then where do you get you morals from?" which demands a facepalm.

[Kyoshi]

We've already been through the morals question in this thread.

I prefer to avoid discussions about religion because they rarely end well for me. But when assembled with people who mark the commencement of any sort of event with prayer, I keep my eyes open and don't even try to hide that I'm not praying along with everyone else. The same thing happens when we go out and people want to say grace before a meal, I refuse to hold hands and give thanks to a deity I don't believe in. So although it never starts as a discussion about religion, I always out myself because of these forms of rebellion. Once asked if I don't believe in god, I say no and leave it at that. When asked to elaborate, I say I'd prefer not to because whatever happens, I always walk away with someone telling me I don't really understand love. I am then reassured that they will pray for me, and that god still loves. I'm almost always medicated so I can be quite mellow about it all. That helps. 

The truth is that no one, and I say this without any form of exaggeration, no one has ever believed that science doesn't even factor into my atheism. The concept of god simply doesn't make sense to me. The endless battle between him and the devil doesn't make sense. The idea that my lack of faith will land me in hell, where the devil will see fit to punish me for eternity, doesn't make sense to me. None of it does. The text of the bible, even without comparison to alternatives, doesn't make sense on its own. Of course I can say it in a more elaborate way than I am doing right now, but no one ever accepts this.

I remember one friend who said he loved me so much that he only wanted to ensure I would also end up in heaven. He invited me to bible study. I went and laughed the whole time. I shouldn't have done that, accepted his invitation. I genuinely felt like an ass after that. I didn't like that feeling. But the thing is I have all these people trying to save me, which is weird because I've always thought I'd be quite comfortable in hell. If judgement day ever came, I wouldn't even bother to check if I made it to the list of the heaven bound. I'd immediately try to befriend the devil. He's always trying to tempt people away from god, he wouldn't even have to tempt me. I'd show up on my own. When I say things like this, I lose friends because people think I'm simplifying their faith and relationships with god. I'm really trying to make more friends. So I don't talk about religion.

[Grimbold]

Those seem like the type of situations where one has to make a tremendous effort to keep from calling someone a complete idiot.

It sounds like you're from somewhere where the general populace is quite religious, and not only that, insists on pushing their beliefs into others, but im just assuming here.

 

Poor you then.

[TrackerNeil]

This is the case when one engages in such a discussion with one of the, let's say, less educated religious individuals.

My immediate response to that is: none, what makes you think that i require a belief in a supernatural entity to live my life? It's almost always followed by "then where do you get you morals from?" which demands a facepalm.

The question I get most often? "Do you celebrate Christmas?" 

[Kyoshi]

Not really. I now live in a Muslim area weirdly enough. Come from a Rastafarian background, which subscribes to a large part of the Abrahamic dogma. My closest friend is Hindi. It just so happens that the Christians I know are quite devout. They're really nice people. They just want to save me.

[Kyoshi]

I think the reason I go off on Christianity more than any other religion is because it's thr one that tortured me and stole many Sundays from me.

[TerraPrime]

I actually quite enjoyed my 5 years of Bible studies in school. I learned the basics of Catholicism, and then we tackled the Bible (parts of OT and NT) to try to understand the parables and metaphors and the historical context. It was a good series of classes ranging from mildly boring to really engaging (depending on the year). It certainly helped me understand Western Literature much better, because so much of it reference the Bible and Christianity. I think I didn't feel any pressure to convert despite the school setting for 2 reasons: (1) being Catholic at my school is a class thing - middle and upper classes are Catholics because it's a colonial thing, and I am from the poor class background and (2) the group that runs our school doesn't believe in that sort of tactics. So, not all religious classes in schools need to be a bad experience.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

This is the case when one engages in such a discussion with one of the, let's say, less educated religious individuals.

My immediate response to that is: none, what makes you think that i require a belief in a supernatural entity to live my life? It's almost always followed by "then where do you get you morals from?" which demands a facepalm.

Yeah that's one of the things that frustrates me the most. Besides, it seems to me that doing something positive because you think it's the right thing to do is more moral than doing something because you want to avoid the lake of fire and go to heaven.

[TerraPrime]

Yeah that's one of the things that frustrates me the most. Besides, it seems to me that doing something positive because you think it's the right thing to do is more moral than doing something because you want to avoid the lake of fire and go to heaven.

That's a very caricature way of describing why religious people (Christians) do good things. Plenty of Christians do good deeds to glorify God, or to exemplify the principles of charity and compassion, and not because they think they need to collect stamps on a ticket to go to heaven.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

That's a very caricature way of describing why religious people (Christians) do good things. Plenty of Christians do good deeds to glorify God, or to exemplify the principles of charity and compassion, and not because they think they need to collect stamps on a ticket to go to heaven.

Yes that is all true. It's not monolithic. But I have encountered many people who seem to prioritize getting into heaven over doing good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds.

It probably doesn't help that I've dated a lot of young women with super religious parents that have hated me for simply not being a Christian (and the one Muslim woman's parents really, really hated me). As if my nonpracticing Jewiness was going to some how forever taint their precious daughters.

[Seli]

One problem with the "new atheists" is that they take religion mainly as competing with science. This is fundamentally wrongheaded and justified almost only wrt a (historically) recent strain of (mostly American) fundamentalism. I can understand the reaction in the face of young-earth-creationism intruding into school curricula but it does not help if one responds narrow-mindedly to such a development. YE creationism is itself confused about the relation of science and religion and its claims pseudo-scientific rather than religious.

Hmm I don't agree with that. Although I my experience they don't see a conflict between religion and science per se. But rather observe people harming themselves and others due to choices dictated by religion, while at the same time knowing there are so much better tools out there to base decisions on. So not so much religion competing with science, but rather (aspects of) religion being out of touch with the real world. Of course they also take it a step further and point out the best tools we have also tend to contradict almost all religions in existence at some level.  

 

[Kyoshi]

That's a very caricature way of describing why religious people (Christians) do good things. Plenty of Christians do good deeds to glorify God, or to exemplify the principles of charity and compassion, and not because they think they need to collect stamps on a ticket to go to heaven.

strangely, I agree with this. I think, especially in my friend's case, people are genuine in being kind to others. They just also feel the need to attribute it to something greater, outside of themselves. I don't know if it's humility or inadequacy, or something else. But I think they are being genuine.

EDIT: I just hate that most tend to say, "it's the Christian thing to do."

[TrackerNeil]

Yeah that's one of the things that frustrates me the most. Besides, it seems to me that doing something positive because you think it's the right thing to do is more moral than doing something because you want to avoid the lake of fire and go to heaven.

I'd argue that even those Christians who believe in hell really don't do good things to avoid going there. I think that most people make their decisions about right and wrong based not on the Bible or Koran, or on what some priest/imam/rabbi says. They do just what we atheists do; that is, they consult their consciences and life experiences.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I'd argue that even those Christians who believe in hell really don't do good things to avoid going there. I think that most people make their decisions about right and wrong based not on the Bible or Koran, or on what some priest/imam/rabbi says. They do just what we atheists do; that is, they consult their consciences and life experiences.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. 

If your "conscience" and "life experiences" are heavily informed by your faith, which in turn is heavily informed by your religious book of choice, then there seems to me to be little functional difference between "consulting your conscience" and deriving your moral judgment from your holy book of choice. 

There is this impulse among some liberals to completely deny that one's religious faith has any impact upon their beliefs or actions. I simply do not understand it. At the risk of a derail, I think Sam Harris puts it best (if most provocatively) in his discussion of this phenomenon in relation to radical Islamic Terrorism:

 

But there is now a large industry of obfuscation designed to protect Muslims from having to grapple with these truths. Our humanities and social science departments are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science, and other diverse fields, who claim that where Muslim intolerance and violence are concerned, nothing is ever what it seems. Above all, these experts claim that one can’t take Islamists and jihadists at their word: Their incessant declarations about God, paradise, martyrdom, and the evils of apostasy are nothing more than a mask concealing their real motivations. What are their real motivations? Insert here the most abject hopes and projections of secular liberalism: How would you feel if Western imperialists and their mapmakers had divided your lands, stolen your oil, and humiliated your proud culture? Devout Muslims merely want what everyone wants—political and economic security, a piece of land to call home, good schools for their children, a little leisure to enjoy the company of friends. Unfortunately, most of my fellow liberals appear to believe this. In fact, to not accept this obscurantism as a deep insight into human nature and immediately avert one’s eyes from the teachings of Islam is considered a form of bigotry.

In any conversation on this topic, one must continually deploy a firewall of caveats and concessions to irrelevancy: Of course, U.S. foreign policy has problems. Yes, we really must get off oil. No, I did not support the war in Iraq. Sure, I’ve read Chomsky. No doubt, the Bible contains equally terrible passages. Yes, I heard about that abortion clinic bombing in 1984. No, I’m sorry to say that Hitler and Stalin were not motivated by atheism. The Tamil Tigers? Of course, I’ve heard of them. Now can we honestly talk about the link between belief and behavior?

[HexMachina]

I actually quite enjoyed my 5 years of Bible studies in school. I learned the basics of Catholicism, and then we tackled the Bible (parts of OT and NT) to try to understand the parables and metaphors and the historical context. It was a good series of classes ranging from mildly boring to really engaging (depending on the year). It certainly helped me understand Western Literature much better, because so much of it reference the Bible and Christianity. I think I didn't feel any pressure to convert despite the school setting for 2 reasons: (1) being Catholic at my school is a class thing - middle and upper classes are Catholics because it's a colonial thing, and I am from the poor class background and (2) the group that runs our school doesn't believe in that sort of tactics. So, not all religious classes in schools need to be a bad experience.

 

I agree with this. For various reasons I missed the majority of my Religious Education classes throughout school, but the way they were taught to us was not an attempt to force us into accepting any particular religion. Rather, they were designed to give us a broader understanding of the particular religion we were studying at the time (be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc). As I said, I missed a lot of these classes, but those I was able to attend I found quite interesting as it give me an insight into cultures I may otherwise have known nothing at all about.

This rather differed from the public assemblies in my Primary school however, which despite not being a Catholic school or any other designated religion, had class/school assemblies which always included prayers (The Lords Prayer and usually one other) and hymns and a bible story. At the time I just went along with it (what else are you going to do between ages 5-11?) but in hindsight it's always bothered me that this went on.

[Ramsay Gimp]

^In making the same point (that specific religious beliefs drive people's behavior), Harris has also used the examples of "Jainist extremists." A central tenet of Jainism is nonviolence, so "extreme" Jainists therefore go out of their way to avoid harming even microscopic life. Islamic fundamentalists...not so much.

So the problem of Islamist violence can't be boiled down to "extremism." The problem is specific Islamic beliefs.

Edit: This was to Nestor

[Wise Fool]

 

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. 

If your "conscience" and "life experiences" are heavily informed by your faith, which in turn is heavily informed by your religious book of choice, then there seems to me to be little functional difference between "consulting your conscience" and deriving your moral judgment from your holy book of choice. 

There is this impulse among some liberals to completely deny that one's religious faith has any impact upon their beliefs or actions. I simply do not understand it. At the risk of a derail, I think Sam Harris puts it best (if most provocatively) in his discussion of this phenomenon in relation to radical Islamic Terrorism:

"[...]Devout Muslims merely want what everyone wants—political and economic security, a piece of land to call home, good schools for their children, a little leisure to enjoy the company of friends. Unfortunately, most of my fellow liberals appear to believe this.[..]"

Indeed. This is the truth. The "obscurantism" is that devout Muslims are unlike any other people, and have alien motivations, and are unconcerned with any of those normal, human things. This is indeed bigotry, very similar to the idea of how illegal immigrants have "anchor babies," giving birth not for any normal, biological reasons, but for a nefarious political plan.  Sam Harris is pretty devoted to defending the good name of atheism... even if it means he must take a steaming shit on Muslims.

[Lord Mord]

I don't quite see how blaming Islam, in the sense of giving the individual horrific beliefs that perpetuate evil acts a single blanket term, advances the dialogue.  Once we identify that they're all tied to Islam ... now what, precisely?  What new revelation or new act now opens up to us that we could not have considered before?

Take honor killings.  Killing people is wrong, and we should stop it.  Should we stop it more because it's Islamic honor killings?  Less?  Should we stop it differently somehow?  Making a law against it isn't enough?

Is forcing women to wear beekeeper suits wrong because it's Islamic, or because it's coercion and sexist coercion at that?

Of course there's got to be something pretty massive I'm overlooking here, but it strikes me as sort of like hate crimes legislation.  It's not bad enough you did something we think you should stop doing anyway -- you did it while thinking the wrong thoughts!

It is in this light that I'm constantly wondering: Where is the indefinitely postponed, much-pined-for "conversation about Islam" supposed to go?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Indeed. This is the truth. The "obscurantism" is that devout Muslims are unlike any other people, and have alien motivations, and are unconcerned with any of those normal, human things. This is indeed bigotry, very similar to the idea of how illegal immigrants have "anchor babies," giving birth not for any normal, biological reasons, but for a nefarious political plan.  Sam Harris is pretty devoted to defending the good name of atheism... even if it means he must take a steaming shit on Muslims.

I really do admire your persistent failure to recognize that accusing someone of bigotry is not an actual argument. 

The unfortunate reality is that devout Islamists DON'T care about little plots of land to call their own, good schools for their children, or a little bit of leisure time to enjoy the company of their friends. What they seem to care the most about is gang raping infidel women, beheading Coptic Christians, murdering innocent people at concerts and strapping suicide vests on to their children.

How do we know this? Because that's what they do. 

How do they know that they do this because of their faith? Because they spare no opportunity to tell us so. They profess their faith before detonating their suicide vests. They profess their faith before opening fire on people in restaurants. They profess their faith before they carve into the necks of hooded captives, kneeling before them. 

If you haven't gotten the message, it's only because you aren't listening.