A sign in Sigils. House secrets or lost knowledge.

[TheSovereignGrave]

This is indeed another aspect about the sigils ive wondered about too. House Mormont i believe to be of Andal origin as Jorah is often called Jorah the Andal, and the original Islands kings were the Woodfoots. Could be wrong but im speculating Andal. Follow me.

Jorah is only called an Andal by the Dothraki, and to the Dothraki everyone from Westeros is an Andal. They make no distinction between Andals and First Men. The Dothraki name for Westeros is even Rhaesh Andahli, which mean "Land of the Andals".

Starks have alot of textual ties to the Ironborn with the Wolves of the Sea bit and the Winter Wolves etc, plus the Grey element popping up frequently. I put forward else where and is also where this thread is also leading, that there is a tie between the Andals and the Iron born.

Lothston origins are unknown to any real degree that i can pin point just yet.

The Lothstons weren't really anyone important (their founder was Harrenhal's master-at-arms) until they got Harranhal, and their sigil is likely a reference to the bats known for roosting in the melted towers of Harrenhal.

Cranes tie into Garth, as do the Lannisters through Rowan Gold tree and have a Lion. Starks are also said to tie to Garth.

Blackwoods, seem first men. Yet, the Corbrays who are Andals have 3 ravens holding 3 hearts on their sigil making me think of Blackwoods and BR. Plus there is House Forester in the North with a Weirwood tree on their sigil and their words are Iron from Ice.

First, as i have pointed out above, many of these Houses stem from Garth the Green. Starks, Cranes, Lannisters. 

As i try to show in this thread and this is another good point to bring into it is that Garth has ties to the Andals (through tales of Chivalry and dragon slayers, etc during the Age of Heroes.)

There's no Andal connection with Dragonslayers, since there's evidence of dragons in Westeros pre-Long Night. And as for the knights and chivalry, as I said before the ancient heroes were just valiant warriors who fit the knight archetype and so were named as such by later tale-tellers.

There is also skinchangers on the Farwynn Islands of the Iron Islands, plus the GreyJoys have a Kraken on their sigil. 

Yeah, probably because they're descended from First Men. And the House is Farwynd; the island is Lonely Light.

The Ironborn warrior Balon Blackskin fought with an Axe and a hammer (both signs carved though out the Vale), and also had black skin that could turn away a sword and shatter axes. This sounds like a quality of the Others. It is also said that they fought with fould black weapons that drank the souls of their enemies.

Sounds like a typical legend of an invulnerable warrior. It never actually says he froze weapons, just that they broke when they hit him. Plus black skin is the exact opposite of the Other's skin colour. And as far as I know, Andals didn't carve hammers and axes in the Vale. They carved the same symbol, and some maesters disagree over whether they were axes or hammers.

I have also pointed out that the Rhoynish legend states that the Rhoyne froze to the joining of the Selhoru in Essos, that would be right at Dorne in Westeros. The southern border of Garth's domains. Placing Garth's domains right in the Lands frozen by the Long Night.

Just because the river froze only as far there, doesn't mean that land farther south wasn't frozen. It take a lot to get a river as massive as the Rhoyne to actually freeze, so land farther to the south likely suffered the effects of the Long Night as well, meaning that the Long Night likely didn't just stop at Dorne.

These are some of the notes/facts/textual tidbits im using to show the link between Garth the Green who i believe to be there first King, and the Ironborn and the Andals along with possibly the Others and the skinchanging trait.

The men beyond the wall are our best example of the true "first men" and they do not kneel. Why? because the first High King wasn't theirs i believe. I dont think there was a king who led the first men, they just came on there own in groups.

The Thenns are probably truer First Men than the rest of the Wildlings. After all, they still speak the Old Tongue and forge bronze. And their Magnar is essentially the King of the Thenn. The Wildlings likely ended up becoming more of a tribal society after they got stuck North of the Wall; the same thing happened to the First Men who were driven into the Mountains of the Moon and out of the fertile Vale of Arryn when they refused to bow to the Andal invaders. And we know for a fact that the First Men had Kings then.

 

This all works on the idea that the Maesters and or Septons are lying and controlling history. Which i have more links for them into this whole theory, which actually ties to the "God's Eye" theory. 

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Some times when people point out the obvious from the text i just shake my head. The idea here is to look past what were told at face value, this is the whole point of the threads. Just kinda happens i know and not your fault, just feels like a lot of time spent in these forums is going round and round about common knowledge stuff instead of pushing forward into the juicier side of tearing everything apart and questioning everything.

As far as the Mormonts and Andals. Yes this i known. I still argue you to prove that they are first men either though. Hence my point about the Woodfoots. Mormonts got it much later in history after the Andal Invasion. So based on other research ive done, im still speculating about them. Especially with the Stark ties to the Iron born through at least those textual visuals. Theres more but i dont wanna get off subject. Need less to say it ties into the Dark hair and Dark eyes seen in the Baratheons and the Hoares, even though the Hoares have andal which typically have light hair and eyes. Baratheon is the quick example as he is a bastard brother to Aegon and looks nothing like Aegon. I think a similar situation happened in the Andals with 2 brothers. Maybe 2 brothers who hated each other. Maybe over the love of a woman. Reoccuring them in the books. Annyyyy who.

Lothstons, yea that's about all i knew of them too and couldn't assert more off that little of info. Though i could just be missing a link.

The Knights and Chivalry part. That is quite clearly your take on it, hardly makes it fact though. 

Farwynd, kudos, i was too lazy to double check the spelling lol guilty haha  Yes possibly, though ignoring the fact that the first men weren't sea faring. Sure.

No, it didn't say Balon Blackskin froze the weapons, but how many more round about discriptions do you need before you understand whats describe to you? If i describe heat, light, hot, yellow, red, burns, etc long enough, will you ever make the leap to assume fire? Or will you wait till some one screams FIRE for you? And no the black skin part doesn't sound like an Other, it sounds like a white. The breaking axes when struck by them fit the Other description. Again, FIRE!. sorry.

Sure, and just cause the oceans and rivers where i come from in Alaska freeze during winter, no reason for me to make the assumption in stops ever. Froze here, screw it, whole world must have froze. Poor people in the lower 48's. They deserve it any ways, pssh.

Thenns, again. That's obviously how you take it, but hardly factual yet. Yes the first men developed kings south of the Wall it would seem at least with time. The Wildlings or Free Folk will occasionally band behind one man they will call a king under needed circumstances. They still wont except a line of hereditary rule. This is echoed in how the Iron born would choose a king through kings moots and also the people of the Greenblood who elect a king by the same method. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Some times when people point out the obvious from the text i just shake my head. The idea here is to look past what were told at face value, this is the whole point of the threads. Just kinda happens i know and not your fault, just feels like a lot of time spent in these forums is going round and round about common knowledge stuff instead of pushing forward into the juicier side of tearing everything apart and questioning everything.

I do look past what we're told outright. There plenty of theories I agree with that we aren't just outright told.

As far as the Mormonts and Andals. Yes this i known. I still argue you to prove that they are first men either though. Hence my point about the Woodfoots. Mormonts got it much later in history after the Andal Invasion. So based on other research ive done, im still speculating about them. Especially with the Stark ties to the Iron born through at least those textual visuals. Theres more but i dont wanna get off subject. Need less to say it ties into the Dark hair and Dark eyes seen in the Baratheons and the Hoares, even though the Hoares have andal which typically have light hair and eyes. Baratheon is the quick example as he is a bastard brother to Aegon and looks nothing like Aegon. I think a similar situation happened in the Andals with 2 brothers. Maybe 2 brothers who hated each other. Maybe over the love of a woman. Reoccuring them in the books. Annyyyy who.

House Woodfoot was wiped out when the Ironborn conquered Bear Island. The Ironborn were driven off and the island was given to the Mormonts by Rodrik Stark after the death of Loron Greyjoy, who was High King of the Iron Isles. Which puts the Mormont acquisition of Bear Islan Pre-Andal Invasion as around the time of the Andal Invasion the Greyirons had already made themselves hereditary Kings.

Lothstons, yea that's about all i knew of them too and couldn't assert more off that little of info. Though i could just be missing a link.

There probably just isn't anything more to it. They're not even ancient and it'd hardly be the first House to own Harrenhal that took a sigil based off of something about Harrenhal. Look at House Towers, or whatever their name was.

The Knights and Chivalry part. That is quite clearly your take on it, hardly makes it fact though. 

Farwynd, kudos, i was too lazy to double check the spelling lol guilty haha  Yes possibly, though ignoring the fact that the first men weren't sea faring. Sure.

Well, I personally adhere to the theory that the Iron Isles were once connected to the mainland and that the second Hammer of the Waters that created the Neck shattered the land around them and made the Iron Isles.

No, it didn't say Balon Blackskin froze the weapons, but how many more round about discriptions do you need before you understand whats describe to you? If i describe heat, light, hot, yellow, red, burns, etc long enough, will you ever make the leap to assume fire? Or will you wait till some one screams FIRE for you? And no the black skin part doesn't sound like an Other, it sounds like a white. The breaking axes when struck by them fit the Other description. Again, FIRE!. sorry.

It sounds more like he had skin that was extremely hard like metal, which would even tie in to the black colour of his skin. The only similarity is that weapons broke when they hit him.

Sure, and just cause the oceans and rivers where i come from in Alaska freeze during winter, no reason for me to make the assumption in stops ever. Froze here, screw it, whole world must have froze. Poor people in the lower 48's. They deserve it any ways, pssh.

What? I'm just pointing out that the Long Night's influence probably didn't stop at Dorne just because the Rhoyne wasn't frozen past Selhorys.

Thenns, again. That's obviously how you take it, but hardly factual yet. Yes the first men developed kings south of the Wall it would seem at least with time. The Wildlings or Free Folk will occasionally band behind one man they will call a king under needed circumstances. They still wont except a line of hereditary rule. This is echoed in how the Iron born would choose a king through kings moots and also the people of the Greenblood who elect a king by the same method. 

And the Wildlings aren't the early First Men. And I thought you were trying to prove that the Grey King was an Andal who conquered the First Men? So why would you use an Ironborn institution in your comparison to the Wildlings?

[Maester of Valyria]

In way yes and no. As we do not really know how, where or why Valyria originally formed. Them having purple eyes and the silver hair makes them unique and shows their origin to be unique. Are Valyrian's from Valyria? I argue you to prove that.

Example. Andals, do not come from Andalos. Even though we are clearly told so multiple times. It should be clear by now through hints in the text that they come from the central grasslands from a people known as the Cymmeri. The culture as we know it pops up in Andalos, yes, but this is not where they take their origin. This may even be important into understanding the early Andal Migrations. 

So though yes, most of the evidence suggest the culture we know of as Valyrians come from Valyria, there is an equally likely chance they did not originate there. Hence all the hint drops about the Empire of the Dawn, which Yandel instead associates to Asshai.

Look at the bright eyed yi-tish people in their monkey tail hats. Monkeys tail is a purple flower. Get where im going with this?

This is just another example of the reader having to look past what the Maesters of Septons are telling us as what they know has oft been proven limited or purposefully misleading.

While what you say is true (although I think you need to be careful with assertions about the Cymmeri, as we know so little about them. The generally accepted origin of the Andals is the Axe), note I did not say that the Valyrians originated on the Valyrian peninsula (although that is likely), but simply that Valyria, as a power, did.

Ah, I always assumed the YiTish had hats made out of tails from actual monkeys. They are abundant in that part of the world after all. The more you know...

 

[Luddagain]

GRRM has largely stuck to KNOWN history.  I would be REALLY annoyed if the Cyrmri were the bloody Andals. Know you HISTORY people.

The tibes/peoples of the UK

Andals = AngloSaxons - England is named for them, although in reality most of the population were still British =First men

The Ironmen are bloody obviously Vikings, who are different from but closely related to, the Andals (Anglo Saxons).

Cymmri= The Welsh - (The name for the Welsh Nationalist party is Palid Cymru). So we can probably assume that it was the First men (or at least the Stark Branch of them) that have origins in Cymmri, given the name of Bran= raven in Welsh.

[Ran]

I don't fully understand this thread, but one point:

Every single depiction of a crown in our heraldry? George said there was a crown, and that's it -- he didn't specify points. We used clipart and such to make said crowns, and I guess most depictions of crowns we had access to had five points for whatever reason. The seven-pointed crown mentioned depicted in WoIaF? Also not with George's input, just the artist's take on it.

George doesn't care about the points. A crown's a crown.

[AlaskanSandman]

While what you say is true (although I think you need to be careful with assertions about the Cymmeri, as we know so little about them. The generally accepted origin of the Andals is the Axe), note I did not say that the Valyrians originated on the Valyrian peninsula (although that is likely), but simply that Valyria, as a power, did.

Ah, I always assumed the YiTish had hats made out of tails from actual monkeys. They are abundant in that part of the world after all. The more you know...

 

Haha, no, you and he have a valid point and quite possibly right in the straight literal sense. I may be wrong about the Cymmeri even. My thought though following the concept of how one culture begets another, in some cases such as U.S. and Canada to Britain, we directly come from them but with added cultures such as France and Dutch. Valyria potentially taking it's roots from The Empire of the Dawn, though how much of that is entirely unknown.

Haha yea there is lots of little things like the Monkey tails (purple) and Amethyst (purple), along with things like Tiger's Eye and other terms he uses that seem to have underlying clues. This is one example potentially of another culture other than Valyria having origins from the EOTD. I suspect at least. So while you guy's may well be right, i really try to weigh all options.  

[AlaskanSandman]

GRRM has largely stuck to KNOWN history.  I would be REALLY annoyed if the Cyrmri were the bloody Andals. Know you HISTORY people.

The tibes/peoples of the UK

Andals = AngloSaxons - England is named for them, although in reality most of the population were still British =First men

The Ironmen are bloody obviously Vikings, who are different from but closely related to, the Andals (Anglo Saxons).

Cymmri= The Welsh - (The name for the Welsh Nationalist party is Palid Cymru). So we can probably assume that it was the First men (or at least the Stark Branch of them) that have origins in Cymmri, given the name of Bran= raven in Welsh.

He's taken alot of influence, but hardly followed history. I also am not saying the Andals are the Cymerri as the Cymerri predate them and are no longer around that we know of, simply that that's where they take their roots from. 

I know history very well. The saxon's are vikings tho. A Germanic tribe before cultures changed enough that they became known as Scandinavian. In fact, most all northern Europe takes there root in Germanic tribes. In fact, Germanic and Viking legends have a lot of obvious influence onto the story too. 

My problem with you last assertion is that the Cymerri were the first known to work Iron. First men never worked Iron. Hence why between that and their location, i place them as forbears to the Rhoynar and Andals. I could be wrong too though. 

[AlaskanSandman]

I don't fully understand this thread, but one point:

Every single depiction of a crown in our heraldry? George said there was a crown, and that's it -- he didn't specify points. We used clipart and such to make said crowns, and I guess most depictions of crowns we had access to had five points for whatever reason. The seven-pointed crown mentioned depicted in WoIaF? Also not with George's input, just the artist's take on it.

George doesn't care about the points. A crown's a crown.

First let me say hello, and thank you. 

Second, yes that was pointed out to me about your site and i totally owned up to that mistake but have taken it into account now. The picture in TWOIAF with 7 points, i suspected as much and mentioned it to who corrected me. So just like you said, no points on a crown are considered anymore, just the fact there is a crown represented on the sigil.

As far as the threads point. Was to ultimately show a relation between Garth the Green, the First King and the Merling King represented on the GreyIron, Gardener and the Manderly sigil. The Manderly's having been rulers in the Reach at one point, having the river Mander named after them. They GreyIron connection into Garth goes a little deeper as im trying to slowly guide people into my thought that the Ironborn and the Andals possibly have a connection. This also works on the theory that the time line we are told, is jumbled and misleading. I am admittedly having a time of figuring out how best to present this theory or where to begin with. I thought visuals with sigils would be simpler for some. Also to see if any one else had thoughts about the sigils telling us things, different or otherwise.

The Crown and Lady Forlorn's sword are both points brought up against me that ultimately though dont effect my overall theory and have taken things a little off topic. (the sword issue i took to the thread about your app and i posed my questions to you in there.). As far as the crown, we do address the lack of description you mention and we still discussed that a lil with differing thoughts. Still not changing my thoughts that Garth the Green Hair is the same Green Haired and Bearded Merman shown in the Manderly and the GreyIron sigil. To explain, i put them on the side of Ice. Hence the stories about the dead under the sea i believe. There's more i feel to suggest this, just having a time of putting it all together in a way i guess. It does also go in the face of what most people think, so i dont expect to get a round a applause or agreement haha. 

Edit- Thought i'd explain a lil further some of this Sea connection with the Andals and Garth, having to do with Hugor of the Hill.

Hugor of the Hill (Andal Hero) was said to be promised lands far away, and also said to have had 44 sons. There just happen to be 44 Islands in the Iron Isles, 31 in the main group and 13 in a smaller group, with the largest numbering 7. Some very strong ties i think already between the Andals and the Iron born. 31 and 13 popping up else where alot too. Both sea faring people too. Now, If Hukko is a rendering of Hugor. Maybe Hugor is another rendering of Huzhor (Amai) son of the Last Fisher Queen. Further, if this is another rendering of Azor Ahai, we have a much deeper connection. Possibly telling us who Azor's father and mother was along with his sister and human wives. 

Further i bring up Balon Blackskin and the fact he fought with an Axe and a Hammer (debated signs carved through out the Vale) that i suggest are both purposely carved in the Vale and are in fact a hammer and an ax.

I already explained a lil on the sigil aspect with Garth but now look at the tales of Knights, and dragon slayers in the Reach. Chivalry and such things like Tourneys associated with the Andals. Garth is also associated with making the land bloom. What makes the lands really bloom? Water.

Also i note that Rhoynish legend states that the Rhoyne froze down to the joining of the Selhoru. That would be at the Red Mountains in Westeros. Just at the southern end of Garth's domains. The Red Mountains being once known as the Green Mountains. Just some added quick notes i wanted to add to help explain where this thread was hopefully leading towards in making a grand connection between all these moving parts.

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Fair enough lol Didn't mean it quite as meh as that probably came out haha apologies, later night writing. Definitely is hard to tell where people are coming from though or what they think off hand. One of the many challenges i find to the forum aspect, hard to sift through and find like minded ideas, or thinkers with out a lot of work. You mention an interesting point about the Iron Isles that i've toyed with too and not gotten any feed back on.

I believe that Andal invasion's began earlier than that. If the time line is indeed accurate, there had to have been earlier Andal invasions as the Age of Heroes has plenty of Andal sounding things. The Lannisters them selves are even rumored to come from an early Andal Adventurer. Now if the time line is shorter or the Andal Invasion only ended 2000 years ago as some Maester apparently believe as were told as much, then this early Andal Invasion isn't really that much earlier than the main invasion. 

Lothstons, i agree.

I think Balon Blackskin is a litttle more telling than that but i guess that's just me. Especially the part about him fight with an axe and a hammer. Carved allllll over the Vale. Yes, in TWOIAF the Maesters debate whether it's an axe or a hammer due to the irregularity of it's shape. I argue it's both. That's just as logical as anything Yandel put forth. 

What other influences (on the whole) would else be caused by the Long Night? If it didn't get cold enough to freeze the rivers, that's a pretty big deal id say. Sure it may have been cold, but cold we can deal with, it's the kinda death freeze that comes with the Long Night and the forever dark that we've been told about.  It may still be dark, but the water not freezing is a good sign that "deathly cold" isn't there. Was it the cold that brought the Others, or the Others that brought the cold? Does it matter? Long as neither are present. I could be wrong. I put to the Red Mountains which used to be known as the Green Mountains as further evidence though to this being the border line between these two powers.

Lastly, i am. My theory works on the fact that the Grey King came upon the Islands already having people on them ruling them selves in this Rock King, Salt King fashion before he came along as said nope, im the only King, High King yo. This works off what Yandel says about the Ironborn right after the Grey King section.

Now, that being said. Lets go back to what you said about the islands and a little of what i jussst said. If you'll notice, i left open though where did the first men on the Iron Isles come from. Lets bear in mind that the First Men were not a sea faring people we are told. 

You bring up where i believe the first men came from as the Islands show signs of decay and breaking away to fall into the ocean. Effectively the Islands are disappearing. This is because as you suggest, i believe too. That the first men came across an ancient land bridge that connected from Essos to Westeros via the Summer Sea. Geography wise, the Iron Isles and the Eastern most lands would bridge perfectly based on latitude. 

There is alotttt of moving pieces to consider and im probably still missing some important stuff, but that Arm is part of it i believe too.

I just cant ignore the Merlings and the Sea. To me the struggle is Land vs Water, Fire vs Ice. 

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Fair enough lol Didn't mean it quite as meh as that probably came out haha apologies, later night writing. Definitely is hard to tell where people are coming from though or what they think off hand. One of the many challenges i find to the forum aspect, hard to sift through and find like minded ideas, or thinkers with out a lot of work. You mention an interesting point about the Iron Isles that i've toyed with too and not gotten any feed back on.

I believe that Andal invasion's began earlier than that. If the time line is indeed accurate, there had to have been earlier Andal invasions as the Age of Heroes has plenty of Andal sounding things. The Lannisters them selves are even rumored to come from an early Andal Adventurer. Now if the time line is shorter or the Andal Invasion only ended 2000 years ago as some Maester apparently believe as were told as much, then this early Andal Invasion isn't really that much earlier than the main invasion. 

I'm still not convinced simply because it would royally screw up the timeline. We have all this history of the First Men prior to the Andal invasions and during the Andal invasions. Where would it all that fit in if the Andals invaded so much earlier than what is believed? And we don't really know who Lann the Clever is; him being an Andal is only one possible theory. And if I'm honest, I don't entirely discredit that theory. He could've been an ancient Andal that came over to Westeros; but I don't think Andals arrived in Westeros in any significant numbers that early.

Lothstons, i agree.

I think Balon Blackskin is a litttle more telling than that but i guess that's just me. Especially the part about him fight with an axe and a hammer. Carved allllll over the Vale. Yes, in TWOIAF the Maesters debate whether it's an axe or a hammer due to the irregularity of it's shape. I argue it's both. That's just as logical as anything Yandel put forth. 

What other influences (on the whole) would else be caused by the Long Night? If it didn't get cold enough to freeze the rivers, that's a pretty big deal id say. Sure it may have been cold, but cold we can deal with, it's the kinda death freeze that comes with the Long Night and the forever dark that we've been told about.  It may still be dark, but the water not freezing is a good sign that "deathly cold" isn't there. Was it the cold that brought the Others, or the Others that brought the cold? Does it matter? Long as neither are present. I could be wrong. I put to the Red Mountains which used to be known as the Green Mountains as further evidence though to this being the border line between these two powers.

It can still be deathly cold without the river freezing. As I said, it takes a lot to freeze a river as massive as the Rhoyne. The deathly cold of the Long Night could've easily extended farther south without freezing the Rhoyne. And I mean, we have legends of the Long Night from Yi Ti. And the northern reaches of Yi Ti only come up to about Dorne.

Lastly, i am. My theory works on the fact that the Grey King came upon the Islands already having people on them ruling them selves in this Rock King, Salt King fashion before he came along as said nope, im the only King, High King yo. This works off what Yandel says about the Ironborn right after the Grey King section.

But that's wrong. He wasn't the only King, he was the High King. The High is rather important, since even after he came there were still Salt Kings and Rock Kings, just as there was before. Though I will concede that the point her is meaningless, since I didn't realize the Kingsmoot was a tradition even before the Ironborn were united.

Now, that being said. Lets go back to what you said about the islands and a little of what i jussst said. If you'll notice, i left open though where did the first men on the Iron Isles come from. Lets bear in mind that the First Men were not a sea faring people we are told. 

You bring up where i believe the first men came from as the Islands show signs of decay and breaking away to fall into the ocean. Effectively the Islands are disappearing. This is because as you suggest, i believe too. That the first men came across an ancient land bridge that connected from Essos to Westeros via the Summer Sea. Geography wise, the Iron Isles and the Eastern most lands would bridge perfectly based on latitude. 

If the Sunset Sea was really that short, the Ironborn would likely know about it by now. And I mean concretely; not just the tales from Lonely Light of peole supposedly seeing lights to the West. And we don't even know if they match up perfectly, since we have no idea what the Eastern coast of Essos looks like.

There is alotttt of moving pieces to consider and im probably still missing some important stuff, but that Arm is part of it i believe too.

I just cant ignore the Merlings and the Sea. To me the struggle is Land vs Water, Fire vs Ice. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

 

It would severly screw up the time line, but that's already up for debate with the countering tales such as Ser Artys and the Winged Knight. On top of the fact the Maesters leave open a 6000, 4000, and 2000 year mark. Then you also have Alyssa Arryn believed by some Maesters to have only been 2000 years ago, in agreement with the 2000 year mark roughly for the main invasion. The biggest thing to consider is motive, and the Maesters or rather, the Septons have one. The elimination of Dragons which we do see tales of during the Age of Heroes. Suching there were dragons and then some knightly sounding people with all the right trait for Andals show up and kill them all. Look at some of the points i mention to Ran possibly linking Hugor to the Iron born and more. Whether im right or not, there are definite clues. Interpretation of course is always key.

This is a good point about the sheer size of the Rhoyne, but also consider where Dawn comes from and the legend behind it. If it is indeed Lightbringer, this would give Starfall as his launching point with a short journey into the frozen lands.  

Also, by the map it appeared to me that the northern most area of Yi-ti/ the Grey Waste was just parallel to the Iron Isles and the Neck. Which is why i mentioned you hit on a point ive wondered about to about the First Men coming across a land bridge from these two points.

I kinda corrected my self but it was still missed haha i did say High King inferring that there were lesser kings below him now. These lesser kings being the ones chosen among the First Men to rule either Rock or Salt. As mentioned it wasn't always hereditary, most importantly, it wasn't absolute. This is why i mention the Green blood, because despite there appearing to be kingdoms, they are actually quite different than the Kingdoms we are used to. Requiring a vote first of all, and being able to be of different houses and still be king. These appear to be the formations of rough kingdoms, but isolated and not very united. The Grey King seems to have put a stop to this. 

As far as the Sunset Sea, all i can see of the most Eastern lands is that it's the Grey Waste, which doesn't look friendly. I kinda just assumed those that made it were met by death, or death out on the sea before even reaching any lands. Though there may have been a bridge before, what ever it is now is evil.

Distancing them selves from eliminating the dragons and from a connection to the Others which they tell us dont exist seem to be part of there motive. As they have ravens, and possibly connect to the God's Eye conspiracy, which would tie to Garth, which i place on the side of Others along with the Andals and Ironborn (lets not forget Eurons connections to ravens). Meaning, that conspiracy is not in our interest. Just what im getting from the story so far. Also, House Hoare has a raven on it's sigil which is said to be from taking over the Citidel or conquering them. Putting the Ironborn in direct control over the ravens. Yet we dont hear the Maesters speak on this take over. Hmmm. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

It would severly screw up the time line, but that's already up for debate with the countering tales such as Ser Artys and the Winged Knight. On top of the fact the Maesters leave open a 6000, 4000, and 2000 year mark. Then you also have Alyssa Arryn believed by some Maesters to have only been 2000 years ago, in agreement with the 2000 year mark roughly for the main invasion. The biggest thing to consider is motive, and the Maesters or rather, the Septons have one. The elimination of Dragons which we do see tales of during the Age of Heroes. Suching there were dragons and then some knightly sounding people with all the right trait for Andals show up and kill them all. Look at some of the points i mention to Ran possibly linking Hugor to the Iron born and more. Whether im right or not, there are definite clues. Interpretation of course is always key.

I think the tales of early dragonslayers are really simple to explain. The First Men had no bloody idea how to tame them, and a wild dragon is not something you want around. After all, it's going to go around eating your lifestock (and your people) and killing everyone and burning things down and just generally making a mess of things.

This is a good point about the sheer size of the Rhoyne, but also consider where Dawn comes from and the legend behind it. If it is indeed Lightbringer, this would give Starfall as his launching point with a short journey into the frozen lands.  

Also, by the map it appeared to me that the northern most area of Yi-ti/ the Grey Waste was just parallel to the Iron Isles and the Neck. Which is why i mentioned you hit on a point ive wondered about to about the First Men coming across a land bridge from these two points.

The Grey Waste is not part of Yi Ti. The Grey Waste is beyond the Five Forts, which are located parallel to the Red Mountains. And the Grey Waste isn't that far north; it's about parallel to the Crownlands.

I kinda corrected my self but it was still missed haha i did say High King inferring that there were lesser kings below him now. These lesser kings being the ones chosen among the First Men to rule either Rock or Salt. As mentioned it wasn't always hereditary, most importantly, it wasn't absolute. This is why i mention the Green blood, because despite there appearing to be kingdoms, they are actually quite different than the Kingdoms we are used to. Requiring a vote first of all, and being able to be of different houses and still be king. These appear to be the formations of rough kingdoms, but isolated and not very united. The Grey King seems to have put a stop to this. 

Except we have plenty of tales of other First Men who very much ruled as Kings as we tend to think of it. And the Grey King didn't put a stop to it; after he died the Iron Islands went back to being split and divided for who knows how long. It wasn't until the prophet Galon Whitestaff called for the Ironborn to hold a Kingsmoot and unite themselves that the Iron Islands became a lasting, united Kingdom.

As far as the Sunset Sea, all i can see of the most Eastern lands is that it's the Grey Waste, which doesn't look friendly. I kinda just assumed those that made it were met by death, or death out on the sea before even reaching any lands. Though there may have been a bridge before, what ever it is now is evil.

But the thing is, we don't know that. The Grey Waste isn't the edge of Essos, it's the edge of what is known of Essos. And we don't even know what we know for sure about it. After all, everything we're told is from a Westerosi perspective and the Easternmost regions are what we know the least about.

Distancing them selves from eliminating the dragons and from a connection to the Others which they tell us dont exist seem to be part of there motive. As they have ravens, and possibly connect to the God's Eye conspiracy, which would tie to Garth, which i place on the side of Others along with the Andals and Ironborn (lets not forget Eurons connections to ravens). Meaning, that conspiracy is not in our interest. Just what im getting from the story so far. Also, House Hoare has a raven on it's sigil which is said to be from taking over the Citidel or conquering them. Putting the Ironborn in direct control over the ravens. Yet we dont hear the Maesters speak on this take over. Hmmm. 

The only connection to ravens the Ironborn as a whole (and not "godless" Euron Greyjoy) have is that their reviled, evil God is associated with them. And it seems likely to me that the raven of House Hoare's sigil came long after they actually controlled Oldtown and more as a reminder of how great they were at their zenith. After all, the Ironborn's high point was really early on before the First Men on the mainland were able to put up any kind of major defense against the seaborne reavers. And the Citadel was founded when the Hightowers were Kings and building large stone walls as defense. 

[Luddagain]

The saxon's are vikings tho. A Germanic tribe before cultures changed enough that they became known as Scandinavian. In fact, most all northern Europe takes there root in Germanic tribes. In fact, Germanic and Viking legends have a lot of obvious influence onto the story too.

No the Saxons were not Vikings. Germanic yes but not Vikings. So  it would make sense if the Iron Born were relatives of the Andals but not exaclty the same.

 

My problem with you last assertion is that the Cymerri were the first known to work Iron. First men never worked Iron. Hence why between that and their location, i place them as forbears to the Rhoynar and Andals. I could be wrong too though. 

Well the Welsh (Cyrmri) were probably the people who brought iron to Britain. They were iron age Celts. As IndoEuropean speakers they were distant cousins of the Germanic tribes but probably a little closer to the Sanskrit speakers of India.

Given I think it safe to assume GRRM and the writers of the World Book are readers of history and current events, I would see the First Men (of the pact) as ancient  PRE=CELTIC peoples ie Basques. They speak an old tongue.  We now know that the core human stock of the UK and france are these people. The blond (red headed) iron weilding Celts came later in two or more waves - the p-celts (Welsh and probably Picts) and the Q Celts - the Irish and Scots. The Germanic peolples (Saxons and Vikings) arrived in historical times ie AFTER the Romans left.

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Still just your thoughts though. Hardly fact. The Winged Knight vs the Griffin King has led many to think the Griffin is actually a dragon. Meaning first men had tamed them. I get your rationalizing, i just dont think that was the case my self.

And im not sure what map your looking at but im looking at the map from TWOIAF. The Grey waste (which would lead into Yi-ti, since your the one who said Yi-ti first when it should have been the Grey Waste) at it's northern edge comes up to where the Iron Islands begin and ends south far south of Dorne. You can find the map here 

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/official-world-map-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

Actually, the First Men kingdoms you speak of intersect into the Andals pretty fast. Look at the list of all known kings for all regions and their tales. Look at who was even around back then as first men kings and check out how long a list of kings it is. Very little. Im sure you'll chalk this up to the Maesters not having writing tho. Starks, Lannisters, and most of the ruling houses we see are not from the Dawn Days, nor from the Age of Heroes really. The person who started there house were in this age. House Stark for example though doesn't pop up at all in tales or writing till after the long night. Also, there were 111 High Kings of the Iron Isles or something like that right? 111 over 6000 years? or wait, you dont associate them with Andals... so First men.... 10-12000 years....hmmm. You know that the Popes of Rome have had 266 in a little over 2000 years. Assuming they forgot over 80% of their kings, they're still falling farrrr short of hitting a 12000 year mark. In fact, they alllll are. And yes, after the Grey King died they went back to their standard way of rule until Galon called for a Kings moot to decide a new High King. 

And no, we obviously dont know whats on the other side of the Grey Waste. And why am i debating with you a point you brought up? About the Ironborn possibly crossing a land bridge from there to Westeros. You brought that up as some thing you thought that i was just touching on in agreement and now your arguing against it. Make up your mind. 

And no, the Citidel was built by Uthor's son after the death of his brother. Uthor having married one of Garth's daughters, and having possibly contracted Bran the builder to build the Tower, all during the Age of Heroes before the Stark family was even established, when the fricken Barrow Kings ruled the North. The accounts of the Iron born apex was after Uthors time, long after id say. Especially since many of the houses listed as fighting them dont date back that far. Old Town just happened to form up slowly over the years around the High Tower, which is the oldest part of the city.

[AlaskanSandman]

No the Saxons were not Vikings. Germanic yes but not Vikings. So  it would make sense if the Iron Born were relatives of the Andals but not exaclty the same.

Well the Welsh (Cyrmri) were probably the people who brought iron to Britain. They were iron age Celts. As IndoEuropean speakers they were distant cousins of the Germanic tribes but probably a little closer to the Sanskrit speakers of India.

Given I think it safe to assume GRRM and the writers of the World Book are readers of history and current events, I would see the First Men (of the pact) as ancient  PRE=CELTIC peoples ie Basques. They speak an old tongue.  We now know that the core human stock of the UK and france are these people. The blond (red headed) iron weilding Celts came later in two or more waves - the p-celts (Welsh and probably Picts) and the Q Celts - the Irish and Scots. The Germanic peolples (Saxons and Vikings) arrived in historical times ie AFTER the Romans left.

http://saxons.etrusia.co.uk/vikings_whowere.php

Just one quick info course for you on trying to split hairs on who's really Viking or Germanic. Vikings are a Germanic tribe. Im Scandinavian German. Pleas tell me more. I count even the French as Germanic, as they are in origin. If your of Northern European blood, you are of Germanic decent. I dont split hairs. And no, no no no no, the Germanic people did not come after the Romans, that's just insulting. They were there before them, back when Etruscans still had Italy before Romulus and Remus, and that's dating back to the Trojan War. 

Im of no real interest into theories that try to incorporate real world parallels honestly. Just because the Starks and Lannisters are named after the Yorks and Lancasters and certain story elements are the same, I, in absolutely no way think the out come of the Hundred Year War or subsequent War of the Roses has any implications on his stories ending any more than Tolkien's influences did his. They are just that, inspiration. Further more, i would be seriously irritated and disappointed with Martin with what would be a serious lack of creativity from a guy who is otherwise veryyy creative and unique. Understanding how influences come through in work is great and all, i just wouldn't hold to them for any deeper answers into Martins books. If it were anything like real world, these people should have been out of the Feudal system fricken thousands of years ago. Or at the very least developed a canon or something to show some forward technological progress. Just saying. The religious schism of Valyria is the most modern feeling thing to me except maybe the slight forms of Republics that seem to be forming. Revolution seems to be lacking from a guy who lived during a revolution. 

[Luddagain]

Alaskan

I was talking Britain, not Europe. The Anglo Saxons arriverd AFTER the Romans left. As you are not of UK descent I should tell you that the legend of King Arthur is all about Britons fighting the Saxons.

Also the Saxons did not come from Northern Europe. The closest place is Frisia in the Netherlands.

And finally recent DNA evidence shows that people in the UK and France (not sure about Scandinavia) have a significant amout of pre-celtic, pre Saxon genetic component. now when I was a kid studying history, there was a belief that each new invading population replaced the originals, but the new evidence show this did not happen. The earliest traceable people seem to be like the Basques, at least in France and Britain (not sure about Ireland). Several waves of Celts followed and then in historical times the Romans, the Angles and Saxons, the Vikings/Danes and finally the Normans (who were largely Viking).

My main point was that GRRM would not have used an obvious name for Welsh people carelessly. He would be very aware that a tribe with the name Cyrmmri, would reflect the Welsh and certainly NOT the Andals (AngloSaxons). it is for someone from Wales a bit like mixing up the ionuit and the Aztecs.

[AlaskanSandman]

Alaskan

I was talking Britain, not Europe. The Anglo Saxons arriverd AFTER the Romans left. As you are not of UK descent I should tell you that the legend of King Arthur is all about Britons fighting the Saxons.

Also the Saxons did not come from Northern Europe. The closest place is Frisia in the Netherlands.

And finally recent DNA evidence shows that people in the UK and France (not sure about Scandinavia) have a significant amout of pre-celtic, pre Saxon genetic component. now when I was a kid studying history, there was a belief that each new invading population replaced the originals, but the new evidence show this did not happen. The earliest traceable people seem to be like the Basques, at least in France and Britain (not sure about Ireland). Several waves of Celts followed and then in historical times the Romans, the Angles and Saxons, the Vikings/Danes and finally the Normans (who were largely Viking).

My main point was that GRRM would not have used an obvious name for Welsh people carelessly. He would be very aware that a tribe with the name Cyrmmri, would reflect the Welsh and certainly NOT the Andals (AngloSaxons). it is for someone from Wales a bit like mixing up the ionuit and the Aztecs.

Oh ok lol and thankfully like you said, most of those later invaders didn't muck up the DNA. A really cool and fun subject actually that i enjoy greatly. 

You may be right if it's something small like that. I couldn't say for sure as im not George. I have actually used England as an example though of how history in Westeros could be very wrong despite other places (Essos) holding the truth. After the fall of Rome, Britons lost much of what they knew about history and went back to believing in Giants and various myths while losing memory of the Romans for a long tim.

The thing about the Cymmeri, Gipps, and Zoqorra that we know is that they all come from the Grasslands of Essos during a time when the Silver Sea may have covered much of those lands in water. Alot of speculation really has to go into fitting these tribes into our current cultures. The reason for me linking the Rhoynar and the Andals to the Cymerri had to do with the Iron tie. Where as the first men only had Bronze. I speculated that the Cymmeri were the fore-bearers to the Rhoynar and Andals before they spit. Kinda like how the U.s. and Canada split despite having roots in England. I could very well be wrong, and i hate to be so insistent i just sound like an ass. The story of Moses and Abraham pops up in my head alot as one deals with a calamity of worldly proportions and repopulating the earth, while the other deals with the Father of Three Faiths and many nations. Something i attribute to this Azor Ahai character. So many religions like the Red Faith, Faith of the Seven, and more come from the religious schism started in Valyria, im thinking. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Still just your thoughts though. Hardly fact. The Winged Knight vs the Griffin King has led many to think the Griffin is actually a dragon. Meaning first men had tamed them. I get your rationalizing, i just dont think that was the case my self.

And im not sure what map your looking at but im looking at the map from TWOIAF. The Grey waste (which would lead into Yi-ti, since your the one who said Yi-ti first when it should have been the Grey Waste) at it's northern edge comes up to where the Iron Islands begin and ends south far south of Dorne. You can find the map here 

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/official-world-map-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

Look at the map again; the Iron Islands are parallel with Mossovy. The Grey Waste's north border is parallel with Massey's Hook, while the southern border is about parallel to Storm's End. And the first time I mentioned Yi Ti was when I said that they have legends of the Long Night when they're a jungle. We can't have any sorts of legends from the Grey Waste, since we don't even know for certain what, if anything, even lives there.

http://i.imgur.com/TUvKqJA.jpg

Actually, the First Men kingdoms you speak of intersect into the Andals pretty fast. Look at the list of all known kings for all regions and their tales. Look at who was even around back then as first men kings and check out how long a list of kings it is. Very little. Im sure you'll chalk this up to the Maesters not having writing tho. Starks, Lannisters, and most of the ruling houses we see are not from the Dawn Days, nor from the Age of Heroes really. The person who started there house were in this age. House Stark for example though doesn't pop up at all in tales or writing till after the long night. Also, there were 111 High Kings of the Iron Isles or something like that right? 111 over 6000 years? or wait, you dont associate them with Andals... so First men.... 10-12000 years....hmmm. You know that the Popes of Rome have had 266 in a little over 2000 years. Assuming they forgot over 80% of their kings, they're still falling farrrr short of hitting a 12000 year mark. In fact, they alllll are. And yes, after the Grey King died they went back to their standard way of rule until Galon called for a Kings moot to decide a new High King. 

We know barely nothing of the specifics of Westeros pre-Long Night. And the Age of Heroes didn't end with the Long Night; the Long Night was in the middle of the Age of Heroes. The Starks, Lannisters, etc are all from the Age of Heroes as that's when their supposed founders lived. And the text the 111 number comes from is outright stated in the text to be "incomplete and rife with contradictions". Which describes the actual Ironborn section too; the timeline of events stated is screwed up royally. And of course we're not going to know of most Kings in Westeros; most of them weren't important and there's no reason to have been named anyway. We don't know the names of most Andal Kings either.

And no, we obviously dont know whats on the other side of the Grey Waste. And why am i debating with you a point you brought up? About the Ironborn possibly crossing a land bridge from there to Westeros. You brought that up as some thing you thought that i was just touching on in agreement and now your arguing against it. Make up your mind. 

What? I never brought that up. I just said I believed that the land that is now the Iron Islands was once connected to mainland Westeros; I never said I thought it was connected to Essos.

And no, the Citidel was built by Uthor's son after the death of his brother. Uthor having married one of Garth's daughters, and having possibly contracted Bran the builder to build the Tower, all during the Age of Heroes before the Stark family was even established, when the fricken Barrow Kings ruled the North. The accounts of the Iron born apex was after Uthors time, long after id say. Especially since many of the houses listed as fighting them dont date back that far. Old Town just happened to form up slowly over the years around the High Tower, which is the oldest part of the city.

And this is the confusing part, the Ironborn were at their zenith when the First Men were weak. When the First Men weren't building ships or their primary defense were wooden palisades. And yet the time of Uthor Hightower the First Men seemed like they were most definitely beyond that point. As I said before, any ancient timeline involving the Ironborn is confusing because of contradictory information.

 

[Maester of Valyria]

I believe that GRRM has explicitly stated that the Grey Waste does not connect to the Lands of Always Winter, which would seem to indicate that Essos and Westeros do not (and most probably never have) connected, other that via the Arm of Dorne.