Would Elia be okay with Rhaegar+Lyanna?

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think they were married. 

I also think Elia was in agreement, be it reluctantly or happily. 

Evidence to say Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

1: Crowning her QoL&B, shows he at the very least fancied her. 

2: He died with her name on his lips

3: Barristan tells Daenerys that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. And Barristan would know, after all he rode to the Trident with Rhaegar after Rhaegar left Lyanna at the ToJ. What do you suppose they talked about on the way? 

4: Ned does not hold any ill will towards Rhaegar. So if he didn't love her & her him, you would imagine her brother would be pretty pissed off at the guy.

5: Dany believes Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, so clearly she was raised with the idea that he loved her, and Viserys and Ser Willem had no reason to deceive her. 

6: the crown was conveniently made of Lyanna's favourite flower. Hmmm. this rather indicates that Rhaegar somehow knew they were her favourites; had contrived to have the crown made, and planned all along to name her. So he more than just fancies her a bit, he has gone to a lot of trouble. 

7: the room she died in smelled of blood and roses, meaning he had gone to the trouble to ensure she had her favourite flowers all the way down in Dorne. 

Evidence Lyanna loved him

1: His song moved her showing she was at the least digging his musical talent, don't underestimate the power of a talent like that to get a girls interested.

2: She seems to have gone willingly because Ned holds no ill feeling for Rhaegar

3: she bore his child

4: she died clutching rose petals, that had turned black.Very indicative that she kept the rose crown he gave her, implying that she kept it and took it with her to meet him,which insinuates that the entire escapade was planned. 

Evidence they were married

1: Rhaegar is still regarded as being a honourable man, honourable men do not make whores of honourable Ladies from Honourable houses. 

2: The Targaryens have practised polygamy, whilst it has not been practised in a very long time it was never actually outlawed. And in all honestly you don't hang polygamy on the wall if you don't plan on using it. lastly Jorah thinks Polyandry is perfectly possible for Dany, so why would the same rules not apply for Rhaegar?

3: it was a well known tactic in the past for two people who wished to be married against their families wishes to elope, wed and then hide out until the lady was visibly undeniably  with child. At which point no one of either family can claim it is unconsummated, therefore it stands and both families just have to accept it. 

4: Elia couldn't have more children, and Rhaegar believed he needed to have one more. And honourable man doesn't go about creating bastards.

5: the KG stayed at the ToJ, including Hightower the stickler for rules. Indicating they were guarding their true king, and so they were not obliged to follow Viserys to Dragonstone.

Reasons I think Elia knew, basically she is aware of the prophesy and one assumes from that the importance Rhaegar believes it to hold. She is an intelligent woman, theirs was not a love match. I don't think you can conclude if she was willingly going along with the idea. Indeed there are lots of potential issues. Such as the potential for her son's throne to be usurped by a child of lyanna's and certainly Doran doesn't seem to have approved of Rhaegars actions at all. But just because he is against Rhaegars choice that does not mean she had not consented. 

An intelligent person is also practical, if she can not have a third child, then Rhaegar must take a second wife. If the prophesy is so important then the need for a third child supersedes any potential risk to Aegon's throne. And as in Targ history; the first born son takes the throne and her son is already born. 

She never loved him, nor he her. So the issue of sheer jealousy is null and void. She had no reason to go into a rage over Lyanna because her heart was not bound to Rhaegar. And if she is a wife and not a mistress, her own honour is not damaged so no concern over her public image. 

 

Of course it isn't conclusive. But I do think that yes they married and yes they loved each other. 

All your evidence for "marriage" are based on your pure imaginations. They are not evidences. All of them are your wishful thinking out of nowhere. 

If these can be evidences, then we can also declare that aegon IV and daena were married. Daemon targaryen and nettles were married. Aerys and Joanna were married. Etc. 

please do not try to confuse more people. 

It is quite clear that you imagine some facts which you feel is useful for your opinion, then you list it as an evidence. For example, at this point, we do not know if elia loved her husband. But you simply decided she did not love him. Are you GRRM? 

[Anath]

A good try at amateur psychology. Just not applicable here.

You may notice that save for the Lyanna OT, no one is discussing Elia'a reaction in the terms of Rhaegar cheating. We're talking inheritance, civil wars and lives of heirs, and saving face which are all very medieval things. And prophecies are widely disregarded in Westeros.

Actually, IMO it's those trying to cheapen Rhaegar's actions and Elia's possible reaction to mere cheating who are simplifying matters. Nowadays, few women have reasons to fear that their children would be left with nothing, their lives possibly included, just because hubby wants a new wife. In the Middle Ages, it was another matter. And in Westeros, there's been literally no case of a king with children by more than one highborn lady that was not followed by the younger brother trying to usurp the elder or their line.

Elia had few reasons to believe in prophecy and zero to trust Rhaegar's good intentions or Lyanna's golden heart.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Anath said:

Assume. Not state it as a fact.

Jon Con could and IMO, would have thought so, especially when the line of her not being able to have another child came immediately after saying that she almost died with Aegon. What we know is that the childbirth savaged her womb so severe any chance of another child ever coming. Not that she'd die giving birth to it. No reason to build theories that she had to refrain from sex till the end of her life to be there for her children, so Rhaegar had to have a "spare" by another woman. The Unworthy didn't have one. Jaehaerys and Shaera didn't have one. No one batted an eyelid or thought it was such a big deal, although they didn't have a Viserys to rely on. Just their one sons.

What do you mean by "she went along with it"? What did you think she did to show that she went along with it?

Ok look, the things that could happen that rule out her physically being able to get pregnant again are basically an emergency Hysterectomy and or a bilateral salpilgo-oophorectomy. And well that is it.

Nothing less than that would prevent her getting preggers again. her eggs would still release every month and make their way to her womb.

Even if her cervix got torn up pretty bad. She just wouldn't be likely to bring a pregnancy to term, as a fucked up cervix is likely to open up once the womb expands and the baby grows large enough to exert more pressure than it can handle. 

The only other complication which would prevent her managing to take pregnancies to term is a prolapse. Which again would mean she is likely to M/C and potentially re prolapse in the process. 

All three of these scenario's are things which might easily almost kill her during Aegon's birth. but torn cervix's are usually a product of modern birth miss management as a rule,though of course there is nothing to say Maesters didn't attend her and royally fuck up.

A prolapsed womb would likely result in an emergency Hysterectomy and likely death, as it is way too major an operation for the time. A prolapse can sometimes be successfully manually put back, and certainly this would result in the advice that she got ie don't get pregnant again. It would not stop her conceiving and any pregnancy would seriously risk a second prolapse and a likely M/C at the second trimester. 

So basically she is still fertile but can't give birth again.  It isn't that she can't get pregnant again, it is that doing so won't lead to a living baby. 

But you are really missing the point. The tactic that she can't ever have sex again isn't about any reality. it is about a plausible method to sell Rhaegars second wife to the kingdom, the faith etc. 

And the fact is that it is far more likely that the reason she can't have more kids is her own physical frailty, as opposed to some accident during the birth. Her fertility isn't effected, as I demonstrated short of her ovaries and or womb being removed that isn't gonna happen. So in all likely hood she can get pregnant but the strain on her body would be too much, especially the riggers of childbirth. She was bed ridden 6 months after Rhaenys and nearly died during Aegon's birth. She is physically frail seems damn obvious to me that is why she can't have more kids, it will likely kill her.  

So yes having sex risks pregnancy, and moon tea is not sanctioned by the faith, let alone reliable, and Rhaegar can use that angle to sell his second wife to the Faith and the Realm and Elia can use it as an angle to save face over her husband taking a second wife. 

Which is the point I've been trying to make and you fail to grasp. 

[Anath]

12 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Which is the point I've been trying to make and you fail to grasp. 

No, it's just that I use your post to reply to many other fans who insist it's the very reality.

Thanks for the biology lesson, although I really didn't need it. Should I return the favour and lecture you on dragons, Others and so on creatures that don't exist in real world?

This is GRRM's world. His rules. If he says dragons exist, they do exist. If he says Elia cannot have children, she cannot have children. It's a fantasy world whose author isn't constrained by the current state of science and medicine. He could have said it would be too risky but he didn't. So, what we know for sure is that she cannot have children, end of story. No reason to postulate that she could but it was just dangerous. He doesn't need to have majored in biology to explain the mechanism.

ETA: Being OK with something means approving or at least, not minding. Again, what you think Elia did to show that she went along with it? Aerys certainly seemed to think that at least Dorne minded the situation which Dorne did. Any reason for Elia not to explain the situation to Doran and beg for his full support, instead of the only 10 000 men he sent partly because he was enraged over Rhaegar's treatment of her?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

All your evidence for "marriage" are based on your pure imaginations. They are not evidences. All of them are your wishful thinking out of nowhere. 

If these can be evidences, then we can also declare that aegon IV and daena were married. Daemon targaryen and nettles were married. Aerys and Joanna were married. Etc. 

please do not try to confuse more people. 

It is quite clear that you imagine some facts which you feel is useful for your opinion, then you list it as an evidence. For example, at this point, we do not know if elia loved her husband. But you simply decided she did not love him. Are you GRRM? 

really?? 

So where were the KG staying to protect the children of Daena and Nettles & Joanna when an opposing force came to take them away and steel their thrones?

When did they each hide out together during a pregnancy?

How do these men's reputations pan out, oh yes that is right they are remembered as Cads.

It is quite clear you deliberately miss read my posts because I disagree with your view of things. 

I made pertinent observations about the story. 

 

[WSmith84]

Well, it's perfectly possible that Elia bought the prophecy lark and still objected to the choice of Lyanna as the baby factory for political reasons. Unless Rhaegar convinced her it had to be Lyanna, though that would surely require Rhaegar to be wrong (again) about Aegon and Rhaenys being prophecy babies.

[Anath]

38 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Personally, I would think of her as a comic person*, a Selyse figure with Rhaegar as a Melisandre+Stannis hybrid.

* I mean, it would practically paint her as a non-character but a convenient explanation in order to remove any moral nuance from the central characters of the particular subplot.

 

Also I do not believe that people who become victims of someone / circumstances are inherently less than and/or ininteresting / unworthy of having a place in a narrative.

This, a hundred times. Being strong and interesting and being a victim are nowhere near mutually exclusive.

[purple-eyes]

27 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is only when you consider the title of Queen of Love and Beauty, combine it with the fact he gives her a crown, it isn't said to be the usual gift for the QoL&B at a Tourney. He is telling us she is the Queen I choose for myself and he gives her a crown, you only get a crown if you marry the prince. He places it in her lap which hints at the pregnancy which follows. The crown is of her favourite flowers. How does Rhaegar know what her favourite flowers are if he has not previously asked her, or her brothers perhaps? And for such a thoughtless guy as he has just been painted that is pretty thoughtful, and certainly says something more than "hey props on your excellent jousting lass." 

 

You are over stretching here. 

Whoever win the crown, would give the flower to his lady. 

If barristan won, it goes to ashara. 

It is nothing about if this is favorite flower of lyanna. 

In fact, it is more likely after she got this from rhaegar, then blue rose became her favorite, ok? 

 

[Blade of Sunlight]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

You are over stretching here. 

Whoever win the crown, would give the flower to his lady. 

If barristan won, it goes to ashara. 

It is nothing about if this is favorite flower of lyanna. 

In fact, it is more likely after she got this from rhaegar, then blue rose became her favorite, ok? 

 

Though I agree that the crown might have been  generic I doubt blue roses only became her favorite after Rhaegar gave her some, mostly by looking at the way both Ned and Robert associate her with winter roses.
If we assume that the whole tourney was an excuse to plot against Aerys then it makes more sense for the crown to have been selected by Rhaegar to be his gift to Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

really?? 

So where were the KG staying to protect the children of Daena and Nettles & Joanna when an opposing force came to take them away and steel their thrones?

When did they each hide out together during a pregnancy?

How do these men's reputations pan out, oh yes that is right they are remembered as Cads.

It is quite clear you deliberately miss read my posts because I disagree with your view of things. 

I made pertinent observations about the story. 

 

KG in TOJ means a marriage? 

I tell you, the quotes of "KG can guard mistress and bastard" and " KG  had no choice if they were ordered by rhaegar to stay even they did not want to do it" and "viserys was named as new heir after rheagar died" are pretty much indirect answers to people like you who wishfully believed a polygamy marriage. 

The answer is no. 

Keep in mind, in whole history, we have not had even one case KG guard bastard. What is the point to add this sentence in the duties of KG?  That is going to be a heads up for jon snow. 

 

[Knight Of Winter]

Rhaegar: Listen here, Elia. I'm going to find myself a mistress, marry her and sire a child on her. It can put you and our children in danger and bloody succession wars. Why - because dragon must have three heads - that's why.

Elia: Yes, dear, whatever you say.

 

Can anyone imagine this conversation? I can't. I can't even phantom why is this idea )that Elia would agree to something so potentially harmful to her and her kids) so widespread and popular. For one, arranged marriage or not, chaeting is usually hurtful, especially if one is shoving it in his spouse's face (see Ned and Cat). For two, any children that Rhaegar fathers on his mistress (and especially highborn one as Lyanna) could be a grave obstacle to Elia's own kids' ascent to the throne. So, why would Elia agree to something that is so harmful and humiliating for herself and her kids and brings absolutely no benefits? Only two possible reasons:

1. Elia is a doormat with no self-respect at all and she's willing to endure whatever humiliation Rhaegar throws at her. While inconsistent with what little info we have on Elia, I don't this this characterization is something we should hope Elia fits to.

2. Elia is just as delusional about the 3HD prophecy as Rhaegar is. While obviously an able and intelligent guy, Rhaegar did some monstrously dumb stuff in the name of prophecy: angering several Paramount families, disappearing while civil war was brewing etc. It's quite ironic how Rheagar's all-important prophecy (that his 3 children will be 3 heads of the dragon) is utterly destroyed by the profane and mundane thing called civil war, that he chose to ignore as less important compared to prophecy. In essence, Rhaegar fulfills a self-defeating prophecy here.

So, again, do we really want to look at Elia as either 1) a doormat or 2) brainwashed cult convert ? I would hope not - neither ofthis makes a particularly good character or an interesting story.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Though I agree that the crown might have been  generic I doubt blue roses only became her favorite after Rhaegar gave her some, mostly by looking at the way both Ned and Robert associate her with winter roses.
If we assume that the whole tourney was an excuse to plot against Aerys then it makes more sense for the crown to have been selected by Rhaegar to be his gift to Lyanna.

Ned only mentioned she loved flowers, Robert never mentioned she loved blue roses. 

We never heard in current winterfell there were blue roses. 

What made you think both ned and Robert related her to winter rose before the HH tourney? 

Keep in mind, before the tourney. 

After that, then sure. Lyanna was related to that flower. 

and what is the relationship between rhaegar deposing Aerys and choosing blue rose as the garland material? 

 

 

[Blade of Sunlight]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Ned only mentioned she loved flowers, Robert never mentioned she loved blue roses. 

We never heard in current winterfell there were blue roses. 

What made you think both ned and Robert related her to winter rose before the HH tourney? 

Land what is the relationship between rhaegar deposing Aerys and choosing blue rose as the garland material? 

 

 

If he knew blue roses were her favorite flowers and he helped organize the tourney then he could have decided for the crown to be blue roses so as to give Lyanna's favorite flowers to her.

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

If he knew blue roses were her favorite flowers and he helped organize the tourney then he could have decided for the crown to be blue roses so as to give Lyanna's favorite flowers to her.

Please, the rose crown was made before lyanna met rhaegar. 

It was with Whent fair maid, the queen of the opening ceremony on day 1. Five knights guarded her crown on day 1 including Oswell. I had to say this blue rose may be the favorite of Whent maid. After all her family sponsored this event to celebrate her name day. 

rhaegar only got to meet KOLT at day 3. Ok? The final tilt and crowning happened on day 5. 

Unless you imagine Whent maid held a different rose crown then rhaegar changed it later.

this crown is generic and the reason that it is blue rose is coincidental in universe and specially designed by GRRM outside universe. 

It is not that rhaegar ordered it for lyanna. 

 

 

[redtree]

14 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

So, again, do we really want to look at Elia as either 1) a doormat or 2) brainwashed cult convert ? I would hope not - neither ofthis makes a particularly good character or an interesting story.

Or Option 3, she didn't agree yet she had no power to stop Rhaegar from throwing her reputation permanently to the ground. She wasn't willing but she couldn't do anything. Just like Naerys and Aegon 4, the Unworthy one, actually her health condition was a lot like Naerys

I'm leaning to option 3

[Blade of Sunlight]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Please, the rose crown was made before lyanna met rhaegar. 

It was with Whent fair maid, the queen of the opening ceremony on day 1. Five knights guarded her crown on day 1 including Oswell. I had to say this blue rose may be the favorite of Whent maid. After all her family sponsored this event to celebrate her name day. 

rhaegar only got to meet KOLT at day 3. Ok? The final tilt and crowning happened on day 5. 

Unless you imagine Whent maid held a different rose crown then rhaegar changed it later.

We don't know if he knew her before, particularly because he was all about prophetic dreams.

[Knight Of Winter]

1 minute ago, redtree said:

Or Option 3, she didn't agree yet she had no power to stop Rhaegar from throwing her reputation permanently to the ground. She wasn't willing but she couldn't do anything.

I'm leaning to option 3

But this is seperate issue. I just listed two reasons why would Elia possibly be "okay" with Rhaegar's actions. Your reason number three is "not okay, but powerless to stop it"

[redtree]

Just now, Knight Of Winter said:

But this is seperate issue. I just listed two reasons why would Elia possibly be "okay" with Rhaegar's actions. Your reason number three is "not okay, but powerless to stop it"

Oops, just re-read your post, you're right

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

We don't know if he knew her before, particularly because he was all about prophetic dreams.

There is absolute no text about rhaegar had dreams. Where did you get this? 

We only knew he read old books. 

About lyanna knew rhaegar before the tourney, we have no text proof at all. 

If you started to say: oh, lyanna may know rhaegar long time ago so rhaegar ordered blue rose for her even before the tourney, sorry, this is not a valid discussion. This is fanfic. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

21 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

KG in TOJ means a marriage? 

I tell you, the quotes of "KG can guard mistress and bastard" and " KG  had no choice if they were ordered by rhaegar to stay even they did not want to do it" and "viserys was named as new heir after rheagar died" are pretty much indirect answers to people like you who wishfully believed a polygamy marriage. 

The answer is no. 

Keep in mind, in whole history, we have not had even one case KG guard bastard. What is the point to add this sentence in the duties of KG?  That is going to be a heads up for jon snow. 

 

 

Nope, That one line does not mean Jon is definitly a bastard. 

the primary KG vow is to guard the king, the idea that if Hightower et al believed Viserys is now King and stayed to guard a bastard of a dead prince over going to him is absurd. 

I don't wishfully believe in a polygamous marriage I believe in one because I see evidence for it in the text. Whether Jon is or is not a Bastard matters not one jot to me. I simply think the hints that are in the story indicate not, and hat you wouldn't write polygamy into the story if it doesn't ultimately serve the plot. 

What is the point in adding this on line to the duties. well I don't know, perhaps to allow room for uncertainty and debate.