Lady Stoneheart is actually Robb Stark

[Evolett]

23 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Woah there. no need to be so self deprecating. It seems you are really threatened by disagreement.  You should take some advice from Eden below.  Forum licenses are not expensive. you could start one that is private/invite only, where nobody is allowed to challenge your theories. 

We are discussing a work of literature. It is someone's work, and they have a detailed plan, with plots and foreshadowing. This is where the logic comes in. The premise of "well, you can't prove it wrong, so it must be legit"  is untenable in discussions. Especially if you are on these forums to have legit discussions about a story you love.

I am so glad you have voiced public support for the theory that the great other is the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime. After all, you can't prove it isn't true, so it must be. I appreciate your support and therefore I must support your totally not crackpot theory that adds nothing to the story. 

You know something? You sound as though you personally sat at George Martin's right hand while he was writing his books. Maybe you did and the rest of us are all dumb idiots who waste their time trying to investigate stuff you know simply cannot be true. I'm not even going to bother getting into a discussion on this. You don't like this theory? Fine. You can't bear the thought of anyone looking to support it and do not want to offer any discussion to the contrary? Fine. Do us a favour. Please take your crusade somewhere else. 

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, Evolett said:

You know something? You sound as though you personally sat at George Martin's right hand while he was writing his books. Maybe you did and the rest of us are all dumb idiots who waste their time trying to investigate stuff you know simply cannot be true. I'm not even going to bother getting into a discussion on this. You don't like this theory? Fine. You can't bear the thought of anyone looking to support it and do not want to offer any discussion to the contrary? Fine. Do us a favour. Please take your crusade somewhere else. 

You know something? You sound like you are threatened by a critical analysis of a story we all love.  You don't like an opposing discussion? Fine.  You can't bear the thought of anyone looking to disagree with a fan theory and you can't handle when anyone discusses it to the contrary? Fine, do yourself a favor and take your one sided discussion somewhere else.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

11 minutes ago, Evolett said:

You know something? You sound as though you personally sat at George Martin's right hand while he was writing his books. Maybe you did and the rest of us are all dumb idiots who waste their time trying to investigate stuff you know simply cannot be true. I'm not even going to bother getting into a discussion on this. You don't like this theory? Fine. You can't bear the thought of anyone looking to support it and do not want to offer any discussion to the contrary? Fine. Do us a favour. Please take your crusade somewhere else. 

He does this in a ton of threads, all the time. All. The. Time. 

[Evolett]

43 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Yeah, nope, sorry. @sweetsunray has the right end of this.

Which of sweetsunray's theories do you mean?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just now, Evolett said:

Which of sweetsunray's theories do you mean?

Oh, just supporting (his/her?) responses on this thread.

I'm in the "Robb warged Grey Wind then died again, the end" camp.

[Dorian Martell]

7 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

He does this in a ton of threads, all the time. All. The. Time. 

You mistake baseless, unsupported crackpot with "All. The. Time." 

[Evolett]

2 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Oh, just supporting (his/her?) responses on this thread.

I'm in the "Robb warged Grey Wind then died again, the end" camp.

Ah ok. Thought you meant something related that she published elsewhere.

[The Answer]

Gwindor:  

Glad to see this theory has picked up steam in recent days.  One of my favorites.  Bring me more like it!

Dorian: Get it together.  

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Oh, just supporting (his/her?) responses on this thread.

I'm in the "Robb warged Grey Wind then died again, the end" camp.

I'm a "her"

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm a "her"

That's what I was leaning toward but wasn't sure--I'll remember next time.

[Neds Secret]

8 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Fair enough, and I'm not trying to play universal peacemaker or anything, I love a good argument as much as the next person. I just think it's important to remember everyone has their own methods for arguing and assessing information, and of course everyone has their own interpretation of the events of the books, which is the whole reason for having a discussion forum to begin with. There has been a lot of what I can only describe as hysterical territorialism with some threads, where people become so married to an idea that any disagreement is treated as a personal attack and reasoned discussion about the idea becomes impossible, and it seemed like this thread was in danger of devolving that way. 

Who knows, maybe this will be one of the question that can be definitively answered when we get to read the series end in twenty or thirty years . Until that day though, I stand by my opinion Lady Stoneheart is Catelyn's vengeance personified, and a zombie fueled by hatred of those who have murdered or betrayed her children is good enough for me. 

I think that Stoneheart is Catelyn also!

[Eden-Mackenzie]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

So, perhaps we can get back to the topic at hand. I for one am interested in finding out if there are  hints in the narrative besides Varamyr’s attempted seizing of Thistle’s body that might point to a hidden theme of humans skinchanging other humans or of human souls warging into other animals after the human’s death. I’ll present a few thoughts for discussion:

 

Human souls warging into an animal

1. Varamyr is number one on the list here. We have his point of view and we explicitly read about him warging into his wolf to begin his second life.

2. Ramsay’s ‘girls’: Ramsay’s idea of a good hunt is to capture a girl, give her an opportunity to run away and then hunt her down with his hounds (his girls) as trackers. Once caught, the girls are raped, flayed and killed. But we also read that the girls who please him by giving him a good hunt are shown some kind of ‘mercy’ – these he kills first and flays them afterwards.

 

 

Further, the girls who give him good sport get to come back as bitches. Ramsay does not appear to keep any male dogs. He’s famous for his female bitches and they are all named after girls he has hunted, killed and flayed. Ramsay takes the skins of the unfortunate girls and reincarnates them in his female hounds. Kyra gave him good sport and she eventually gets to ‘come back’ as a dog. It’s too bad the author does not give us a description of Kyra’s hair, which is odd in itself considering that he describes most characters, even minor characters in detail. Hair, eyes, height, small breasts, large breasts, three fingers, clubfoot you name it. If I had to guess, I'd say she was a red-head. 

 

Whatever the case, the notion of taking someone’s skin evokes skinchanging (Bran slips his skin to take Summer’s skin etc.) and renaming a dog after a dead woman evokes a reincarnation of sorts if only in name. To me, the hidden implication is that the girl’s souls are reincarnated in the dogs they are named after. Haggon also tells us that because dogs are close to men, they are the easiest to bond with.

 

We never actually read of anyone skinchanging a dog but it is obviously done by some skinchangers, otherwise Haggon would not mention it. It’s also easy. The question remains – are Ramsay’s hounds easy to skinchange and are the souls of the women thus horribly killed subsequently reborn in his ‘girls’?

 

Humans skinchanging humans

3. Ben Bones continues by informing Theon that Ramsay has trained his hounds to kill wolves as well.

 

 

Theon knows which kind of wolf the girls were meant to kill and so do we. The Boltons have a past history of warring against the Starks. The World Book states they flayed the Stark princes they killed and wore their skins as cloaks. Many have speculated on what this might mean. Theories such as the Bolton’s wanting the Stark’s inherent ability to warg are high up on the list. But flaying means actually taking the skin of another person. Taking the body of another person, rather like the Faceless Men who obviously flay the faces of the dead to acquire the skin. By means of a blood ritual, they then wear these flayed skin faces to take on the appearance of the dead.
Apply this now to the Boltons and their flaying practice: they take the skins of the flayed Starks in order to take on the appearance of the Stark. Put that together and you have another way of saying that the Boltons seize the bodies of dead Stark princes. In other words, it is implied that the Boltons were ‘highly qualified’ skinchangers who succeeded in skinchanging their victim's bodies, taking them over and wearing their appearance in the same way as Varamyr planned to do with Thistle. A Bolton living his second life in the body of a Stark, lol. 

 

As far as I am concerned, the implication is there, the possibility exists and the likelyhood that generally, certain people are easier to seize than others (further implication of the girls that give Ramsay 'good sport') is high. The latter group may include red-haired people and persons of diminished mental capacity such as Hodor and Patchface. 

Regarding Topic 2, Ramsay's girls: are you suggesting latent warging abilities run rampant through the peasant women of the North? Also, I believe at some point reference is made to dogs in the next litter potentially being ndmtf after someone, as if Ramsay had a pool of names to use when new puppies are born. Sorry I know that is super vague, I'll try to find the quote later, I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what you're getting at. 

[Evolett]

43 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Regarding Topic 2, Ramsay's girls: are you suggesting latent warging abilities run rampant through the peasant women of the North? Also, I believe at some point reference is made to dogs in the next litter potentially being ndmtf after someone, as if Ramsay had a pool of names to use when new puppies are born. Sorry I know that is super vague, I'll try to find the quote later, I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what you're getting at. 

No, that's not what I suggest. Ramsay does not name hounds after every woman he kills, only after those who give him good sport. Regarding his naming tradition, there are two more quotes stating that he only names them after girls who give him good sport that I found. 

Quote

 

“Ramsay will use your women as his prey,” he told the singer. “He’ll hunt them down, rape them, and feed their corpses to his dogs. If they lead him a good chase, he may name his next litter of bitches after them”
ADWD, Theon

Red Jeyne loped over to lick at his hand, and Helicent slipped under the table and curled up by his feet, gnawing at a bone. They were good dogs. It was easy to forget that every one was named for a girl that Ramsay had hunted and killed.
ADWD, The Turncloak

 

This is obviously Theon repeating what Ben Bones told him. The quotes come after the original telling by Ben Bones and he, as the Dreadfort's kennel-master presumably obeys his master orders in respect of naming puppies. I don't take this to literally mean Ramsay's hounds are running about with spirits reincarnate or if indeed they do, what purpose that might serve. It's the symbolic implication that's interesting, Skinchanging may be much more important to the backstory than we realize, imo. Apart from all the things we learn through Bran's experiences, the author devotes a whole Varamyr POV chapter to it, part of which I analyse in this post if you are interested. 

 

[Gwindor]

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

On 2/29/2016 at 0:52 AM, Gwindor said:

Dorian Martell, you are absolutely right. My theory is totally crackpot, and definitely not worth any notice, as would be obvious to anyone taking the briefest of looks upon it, as it does not follow directly from any explicitly stated material in the books! The very idea of using imagination to formulate theories is repugnant. Even more so, the murderous dwelling in uncertainties! It either is, or it isn't! There isn't and cannot possibly be any place for any middle-ground in forum discussions!

I would like to especially criticize myself for following the seeming parallel between Catelyn and Thistle, an unworthy example of superstitious reliance on the so called 'hints', a repelling practice, a relic of old which we should all put our best efforts to eradicate.

One can only imagine in horror what this heretic speculation might have led to, if not for the valiant Dorian Martell, ever vigilant in his unending struggle against The Crackpot.

Woah there. no need to be so self deprecating. It seems you are really threatened by disagreement.  You should take some advice from Eden below.  Forum licenses are not expensive. you could start one that is private/invite only, where nobody is allowed to challenge your theories. 

On 3/1/2016 at 2:12 AM, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Dorian may have been a bit brusque, but that does not mean he is wrong. You presented an interesting idea, people discussed it, some of them agreed with you while others did not. Agreement with the original premise is not the only way to contribute to a thread, and the threads with actual discussion over the various aspects of a premise and their merits are far more interesting to read (in my opinion) than the threads were everyone agrees with each other and nothing is questioned or critiqued. You have posed several interesting ideas recently, but if you are seeking universal agreement, an Internet forum is not the place for you.

21 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

It does not seem to me that @Gwindor is seeking universal agreement but just a place to speculate on a theory that they believe is possible and is seeking for other posters ideas and feedback with regards to the op. It appears to me that some people are behaving as if they are somehow threatened by the exposition of this theory and are now trying to subject gwindor to burdens of proof that I have not really encountered  before on this forum. I mean we are all speculating on events that occur in a fantasy novel work of fiction and as such I believe it would be near impossible to prove that almost anything had happened. 

We are discussing a work of literature. It is someone's work, and they have a detailed plan, with plots and foreshadowing. This is where the logic comes in. The premise of "well, you can't prove it wrong, so it must be legit"  is untenable in discussions. Especially if you are on these forums to have legit discussions about a story you love.

18 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Dorian might not have been wrong, but he's not right either. "Well, you can't prove your theory conclusively, so it's definitely wrong. Prove it, or shut up, you idiot" - what kind of an argument is that?

True, I'm not interested in universal agreement. I am grateful to everyone in this thread who has contributed anything constructive, whether they agree with me or not. But 'burden of proof'? We are not in a court of law, so that kind of talk is ridiculously out of place.

I am so glad you have voiced public support for the theory that the great other is the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime. After all, you can't prove it isn't true, so it must be. I appreciate your support and therefore I must support your totally not crackpot theory that adds nothing to the story. 

Oh, trust me, at this point I would love nothing more than to point out your idiocy for everyone to see, but you, in your last post especially, seem to be making a much better job of it than I ever could.

[Dorian Martell]

19 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Oh, trust me, at this point I would love nothing more than to point out your idiocy for everyone to see, but you, in your last post especially, seem to be making a much better job of it than I ever could.

Wow, I was just going to drop it and never visit this thread again, but you wanted me back, so here we go! 
Now that it has been driven home that your theory is impossible, you are reduced to name calling and a poor attempt at snark. Besides, my transformer theory has just as much textual evidence to support it as does your bob stark is stoneheart now that you have set the standard as proof=unable to be disproven. Let  that sink in for a minute, before you keep digging.  Otherwise, you can keep up with the b-hurts and we can continue to go back and forth, over and over again. It seem to be what you want. And who am I to tell someone how to feel 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

No, that's not what I suggest. Ramsay does not name hounds after every woman he kills, only after those who give him good sport. Regarding his naming tradition, there are two more quotes stating that he only names them after girls who give him good sport that I found. 

This is obviously Theon repeating what Ben Bones told him. The quotes come after the original telling by Ben Bones and he, as the Dreadfort's kennel-master presumably obeys his master orders in respect of naming puppies. I don't take this to literally mean Ramsay's hounds are running about with spirits reincarnate or if indeed they do, what purpose that might serve. It's the symbolic implication that's interesting, Skinchanging may be much more important to the backstory than we realize, imo. Apart from all the things we learn through Bran's experiences, the author devotes a whole Varamyr POV chapter to it, part of which I analyse in this post if you are interested. 

 

I think with the Boltons especially, imitation skinchanging is a big theme. Flaying Starks and wearing their skins, giving imitation second lives to the girls who give "good sport". Like they're obsessed but can't manage the real thing.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

No, that's not what I suggest. Ramsay does not name hounds after every woman he kills, only after those who give him good sport. Regarding his naming tradition, there are two more quotes stating that he only names them after girls who give him good sport that I found. 

This is obviously Theon repeating what Ben Bones told him. The quotes come after the original telling by Ben Bones and he, as the Dreadfort's kennel-master presumably obeys his master orders in respect of naming puppies. I don't take this to literally mean Ramsay's hounds are running about with spirits reincarnate or if indeed they do, what purpose that might serve. It's the symbolic implication that's interesting, Skinchanging may be much more important to the backstory than we realize, imo. Apart from all the things we learn through Bran's experiences, the author devotes a whole Varamyr POV chapter to it, part of which I analyse in this post if you are interested. 

 

Ah that first quote you included was what I was thinking of, so thanks for that. And I have to say I am very glad I misread your previous post, I was reading on my phone while riding in the car, and I think the line I got caught on was 

Quote

Ramsay takes the skins of the unfortunate girls and reincarnates them in his female hounds.

Followed by the discussion of warging dogs. The idea of the Boltons and pseudo-skinchanging is interesting though...

[awearyman]

That is pretty interesting. 

[Neds Secret]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Wow, I was just going to drop it and never visit this thread again, but you wanted me back, so here we go! 
Now that it has been driven home that your theory is impossible, you are reduced to name calling and a poor attempt at snark. Besides, my transformer theory has just as much textual evidence to support it as does your bob stark is stoneheart now that you have set the standard as proof=unable to be disproven. Let  that sink in for a minute, before you keep digging.  Otherwise, you can keep up with the b-hurts and we can continue to go back and forth, over and over again. It seem to be what you want. And who am I to tell someone how to feel 

Come to think of it the Nights King on the show did look a little like Optimus. Ha ha ha

[Dorian Martell]

18 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Come to think of it the Nights King on the show did look a little like Optimus. Ha ha ha

Movie Transformers only though.