HouseFossoway Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 So I was thinking about Pate from the AFFC prologue, and I started to think that Pate's story might be a commentary on College. Pate was studying at the Citadel, and he had all these dreams of being a maester at some rich lord's castle where he might be given a bunch of gifts, but after many years he just couldn't advance. He was getting bullied by other novices and was being taken advantage of by the archmaesters (getting him to take care of Walgrave). He mentioned that he had plans to run away and just be a traveling doctor type, because even though he didn't have a medicine link, he was still knowledgeable enough to help others and get paid. A lot of people nowadays are starting to think that too many high school graduates are pushed into pursuing higher education, when they really aren't suited for it. There's an opinion that kids are given to many false hopes and unrealistic dreams about what college can do for everyone, and that it will just leave a bunch of people with too much debt. Oftentimes they say that trade school would really lead to a better life. A version of Pate and real life would probably be given as a prime example of someone who shouldn't have gone to college, but did anyways and ended up all the worse for it. Does anybody else think that this might have been some kind of social commentary on GRRM's part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdallah Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, HouseFossoway said: So I was thinking about Pate from the AFFC prologue, and I started to think that Pate's story might be a commentary on College. Pate was studying at the Citadel, and he had all these dreams of being a maester at some rich lord's castle where he might be given a bunch of gifts, but after many years he just couldn't advance. He was getting bullied by other novices and was being taken advantage of by the archmaesters (getting him to take care of Walgrave). He mentioned that he had plans to run away and just be a traveling doctor type, because even though he didn't have a medicine link, he was still knowledgeable enough to help others and get paid. A lot of people nowadays are starting to think that too many high school graduates are pushed into pursuing higher education, when they really aren't suited for it. There's an opinion that kids are given to many false hopes and unrealistic dreams about what college can do for everyone, and that it will just leave a bunch of people with too much debt. Oftentimes they say that trade school would really lead to a better life. A version of Pate and real life would probably be given as a prime example of someone who shouldn't have gone to college, but did anyways and ended up all the worse for it. Does anybody else think that this might have been some kind of social commentary on GRRM's part? Maybe. GRRM is very involved in US politics and he might be saying an f u to the US college system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Throughout this whole series people born outside the lucky sperm club, even those with lucky sperm on only one side of the sheets get squashed. Pate and Gendry are some examples but what stands out most in my mind is Janos Slynt. He isn't painted as a particularly sympathetic character but he did the best he could, rising high within the system that's against him. After climbing and climbing he became an upjumped sellsword and fell from his newly acquired station and got his title and head taken away from him. Meanwhile no one else did anything to get their inherited education and position aside from being born. Petyr is the only one of low birth that rises to power and hasn't been harmed by it... yet. He plays a different game entirely which changes the political game itself. I must say the title of this thread is my second-most favorite title of the week. "Skahaz is scum" takes that cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdallah Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, Daendrew said: I must say the title of this thread is my second-most favorite title of the week. "Skahaz is scum" takes that cake. please tell me thats chocolate cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Just now, Abdallah said: please tell me thats chocolate cake. Lemony lemon lemoncakes. i bought all the lemons in the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdallah Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Daendrew said: Lemony lemon lemoncakes. i bought all the lemons in the Vale. kk. Also the reason I put Skahaz is scum is because i don't think the moderators would like to see "Skahaz is a damn dirty bastard" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Abdallah said: kk. Also the reason I put Skahaz is scum is because i don't think the moderators would like to see "Skahaz is a damn dirty bastard" If he was a bastard wouldn't he be Skahaz MoHarpy? What's the Merenese bastard name? Whether he is dirty is up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 46 minutes ago, HouseFossoway said: So I was thinking about Pate from the AFFC prologue, and I started to think that Pate's story might be a commentary on College. Pate was studying at the Citadel, and he had all these dreams of being a maester at some rich lord's castle where he might be given a bunch of gifts, but after many years he just couldn't advance. He was getting bullied by other novices and was being taken advantage of by the archmaesters (getting him to take care of Walgrave). He mentioned that he had plans to run away and just be a traveling doctor type, because even though he didn't have a medicine link, he was still knowledgeable enough to help others and get paid. A lot of people nowadays are starting to think that too many high school graduates are pushed into pursuing higher education, when they really aren't suited for it. There's an opinion that kids are given to many false hopes and unrealistic dreams about what college can do for everyone, and that it will just leave a bunch of people with too much debt. Oftentimes they say that trade school would really lead to a better life. A version of Pate and real life would probably be given as a prime example of someone who shouldn't have gone to college, but did anyways and ended up all the worse for it. Does anybody else think that this might have been some kind of social commentary on GRRM's part? What I really like about ASOIAF is that it's almost Shakespearean in its universal appeal in that it speaks to human issues that are so basic and poignant that anyone can identify with these characters. Pate didn't strike me as a commentary on any specific political, social, or cultural issue, but rather that liminal stage in a person's life when they have to question whether the path they are still on is worth continuing, or whether they should walk away and pursue something else. That Pate is a confused young man searching for his best path forward isn't, I don't think, unique to America's preposterous education system but rather the floundering that I think a lot of people experience when uncertainty strikes. For me, that we can read similarities between Pate's situations and those of many young Americans highlights the aforementioned universal appeal moreso than a deliberate cultural statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Daendrew said: Throughout this whole series people born outside the lucky sperm club, even those with lucky sperm on only one side of the sheets get squashed. Pate and Gendry are some examples but what stands out most in my mind is Janos Slynt. He isn't painted as a particularly sympathetic character but he did the best he could, rising high within the system that's against him. After climbing and climbing he became an upjumped sellsword and fell from his newly acquired station and got his title and head taken away from him. Meanwhile no one else did anything to get their inherited education and position aside from being born. Petyr is the only one of low birth that rises to power and hasn't been harmed by it... yet. He plays a different game entirely which changes the political game itself. I must say the title of this thread is my second-most favorite title of the week. "Skahaz is scum" takes that cake. Gendry was in much better shape than Pate. He might not have gotten the "education" Pate did, but apprenticing for Mott basically set him up for a long and lucrative career while Pate would have been an itinerant healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseFossoway Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 It makes me wonder about the citadel and who gets chosen for which jobs. We already know that the son of hightower girl and an archmaester was sent to Winterfell, and a lannister by birth was sent to white harbor. It wouldn't surprise me if the maesters from the wealthier backgrounds get the better positions at richer castles or as archmaesters. It's prbably also easier to study if you're somebody like Sarella who has enough money to support herself, while Pate needs to work. Yet every novice is still given dreams of having a great life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 7 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said: Gendry was in much better shape than Pate. He might not have gotten the "education" Pate did, but apprenticing for Mott basically set him up for a long and lucrative career while Pate would have been an itinerant healer. Gendry almost got himself tortured and burnt to death for no reason but his blood. Pate was at least was a traitor to his order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yet Another ASOIAF Fan Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 5 hours ago, Daendrew said: Gendry almost got himself tortured and burnt to death for no reason but his blood. Pate was at least was a traitor to his order. When did this happen in the book?? As far as I know, that only happened in the show. In the book it was Edric Storm that was almost burned by Stannis. The only reason Gendry was in danger due to burning was in Gods Eye town and that was due to Amory Lorch looking for the BWB/other enemy's of the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raisin' Bran Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 22 minutes ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said: When did this happen in the book?? As far as I know, that only happened in the show. In the book it was Edric Storm that was almost burned by Stannis. The only reason Gendry was in danger due to burning was in Gods Eye town and that was due to Amory Lorch looking for the BWB/other enemy's of the Lannisters. Beat me to it. Though I may not have included all the detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said: When did this happen in the book?? As far as I know, that only happened in the show. In the book it was Edric Storm that was almost burned by Stannis. The only reason Gendry was in danger due to burning was in Gods Eye town and that was due to Amory Lorch looking for the BWB/other enemy's of the Lannisters. You are right, that which much not be spoken mixed things up in my head. It was Edric, but since he was such a minor character and then forgotten... I well, forgot about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 GRRM said this series isn't an allegory for our times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Fire Eater said: GRRM said this series isn't an allegory for our times. The series as a whole, yes. However, little prologue chapters would be the perfect place to fit in that type of allegory. I personally don't think it was his intent for this chapter, as there isn't enough parallels, but I still think that he could've done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 I think people often see what they want to when drawing parallels from a fictional universe to our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 On March 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Daendrew said: Gendry almost got himself tortured and burnt to death for no reason but his blood. Pate was at least was a traitor to his order. That political and background stuff specific to the story. I was talking in practical terms for Pate and Gendry. Pate was at best a middling student whose best hope was as an itinrant healer. Gendry was apprenticed to the best armourer in Kings Landing, and had already shown great skill. Gendry had all sorts of possibilities. He could have become a master smith at a castle, set up his own shop somewhere or even taken over Mott's business when Mott got old? Once we remove the politics of aSoIaF, who had the better prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Given staying alive comes ahead of all prospects and the politics of the world tend to be what causes goldcloaks to storm in and kill ya or not, I'd comparing prospects removed from the politics is kinda silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 The topic was about whether Pate's story might be a commentary on higher education in the US, however everyone seems to forget the topic and instead bring Cersei and other factors into the debate, so I'll make it simple. Bastard of "Unknown Parentage 1" goes to the Citadel to train. He's been there a while. He might one day forge his chain if his neck is the size of a pencil. Bastard of "Unknown Parentage 2" becomes apprentice to one of the finest armourers in the Seven. Who has the better prospects? In other words, college does not equal success and not attending college does not equal failure/poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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