It really sucks to be Stannis

[thelittledragonthatcould]

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Okay, let's talk Stannis:

• One of the best military commanders of his time. Alone, he destroyed the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle. The Iron Fleet is the most impressive navy in Westeros, and Stannis baited them, and broke them.

Alone? His brother made him Master of Ships. He had control of the Royal Navy and the Reach Navy.

Swift to respond, the young king called his banners and sent his brother Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, around Dorne with the royal fleet. Warships from Oldtown and the Arbor and the Reach joined their strength to his.

Now according to GRRM the three most powerful fleets are the Royal, Redwyne and Iron islands fleet. Even if the Ironborn took no casualties in their victories at Seagard and Lannisport they still would have been outmatched by the fleet the Master of Ships commanded.

It is still an impressive victory even without inflating the numbers.

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

 

• He is ungodly loyal to his brother, to the point of almost dying fo starvation to defend Robert's ancestral home. Remember what happened with the Youn Wolf when he lost Winterfell? The same would happen to Robert; he'd be seen as weak. 

What choice did he have? He was hardly the only person loyal to Robert at Storm's End. He was hardly going to give himself to Aerys, who was keeping Elia and Jaime hostage to keep their families in line.

Part of it may be loyalty but Stannis would have to be incredibly dumb to surrender himself to Aerys. Look what happened to Connington and Merryweather, stripped of their lands despite being loyal to him.

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

• Stannis was ever dutiful, and governed the realm with Jon Arryn as best he could. He was master of ships, and in his masterdom King's Landing never lacked for sea support. In the Battle of the Blackwater Davos takes note of the captains in the Kingslander's ships, and how they were always chasing him. 

If he was so dutiful why did he disapear for none months leaving others, such as Renly, to govern the realm?

If he was so dutiful why did he not attempt to warn his brother the King or even Ned of the possible dangers he was in?

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

 

• Being the second son, Stannis was expecting something for himself before the Rebellion. Perhaps a seat on the dragon's small council, or knighthood and fame, or whatever. But, when Robert takes the Iron Throne, Stannis gets Storm's End. Simple as that.

Robert was under no obligation to give his brothers anything. He could have kept them as nobles with no Lordships or positons on the Small Council.

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

 

• Giving Stannis Dragonstone was Robert's way of getting petty revenge at him for not getting Dany and Viserys. Robert was a terrible brother, and neglected both his loyal brother Stannis and his little brother Renly, leaving them to their lives, all the while whoring and drinking his away.

You know, maybe he was. Maybe Robert was not impressed with Stannis sitting safely behind the walls of Storm's End. Maybe he thought that mostly anyone could have done the same.

And maybe Robert was annoyed that he failed to take the Royal family, like he was ordered to do, and instead came back bragging about how he captured an island that had acctually surrendered.

Maybe, just maybe Robert did not think Stannis would have done a good job of ruling Storm's End as Renly would have and vice versa regarding Renly and the Lords of the Narrow Sea. That is a King's prerogative. It can't all be about pleasing his younger brothers.

 

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

• As Davos proves, Stannis can inspire loyalty. All you have to do is be a just person, like Stannis. Robert was a drunk, he couldn't care less about 'just', 'right' or whatever. "If Robert couldn't fuck it, drink it, or fight it, it bored him". 

And as the many soldiers under him at the Blackwater proved, that loyalty can be fleeting as many changed sides during the battle.

 

22 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

TL;DR: Stannis is misunderstood; he is harsh, yes, but also just, and very loyal. Too bad for him, his brother is an asshole.

Wait, Robert is the asshole? Stannis was convinced that Robert had been cuckolded and that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn and Stannis did nothing and somehow Robert is the 'asshole'?

Stannis owes his Lordship and his position on the Small Council and yet Robert is somehow the 'asshole'? Nothing short of being made co-king would have made this ungrateful brother happy.

26 minutes ago, Valens said:

This! Robert's lukewarm attitude towards his brothers, especially Stannis, was really unfair. Renly surely loved him, and he loved Stannis once, but Robert admitted to Ned he never loved his brothers. And why? What did they do to not deserve his love?

In the books? I don't recall him saying that.

GRRM says that he loved them:

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

And why should it be so odd that Robert prefers Ned to his brothers? They were fostered together, they actually grew up together as foster brothers. Ned actually feels the same

He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

39 minutes ago, Valens said:

Could an AVERAGE TO GOOD commander smash one of the most formidable fleets in Westeros by his own doing?? THINK NOT! Get real, please! Robertlover.

Yes, an average or good commander would have beat the Ironborn fleet provided he was given the Royal Navy and the Reach Navy. It would take a poor commander to lose that battle with the significant advantage he had.

That does not take away from his victory as many battles in the medieval ages were based on numbers. Few lords tried to take risks if they did not have to.

 

edit: I'd say the problem is with the perception of a fantasy reading audience. In this genre victories are only great if they are against the odds, so Robb and Stannis fans embellish their opponents armies in a bid to make their heroes look more impressive. GRRM is, at times, trying to stay true to real world medieval battles which, more often than not, had battles won through superiority (either through numbers or equipment and training).

 

[The Oily Black Stone]

" Stannis really is the Ted Cruz of Westeros, isn't he? Conservative to a fault, tries to shove his religion down people's throats, cheats on his wife with a crazy chick (if you believe Trump), has a massive Messiah complex, and believes he's constantly persecuted. And they both have killed people.  "
Oh dear god, you just made me laugh so hard that it gave me a nosebleed.

I'm of the opinion that Stannis has it good in life, it's his attitude that's the problem. Maester Cressen says he's always been a dour negative nancy. As others have mentioned above, as a second son of a paramount house, he would have at best be a marriageable bargaining chip. He is so obviously bitter comparing himself to Kingly, boisterous  Robert and popular, sexy Renly. Sibling rivalry much? 

I'm not sure that inheriting Dragonstone is an obvious slight. It is the seat of the previous royal family after all, how shitty could it be? It probably only sucks cause Stannis the Killjoy himself is there ruining everyone's mood. He probably only wants Storm's End due to sentimental reasons, which are no more than Renly's attachments would be.

Davos and Melisandre are great assets, for different reasons. His wife came with many subjects who  were also acting in his best interests even though he considered them traitors. Really the only legitimate   problems he has are a boring zealot wife and a disfigured daughter with no son in sight. 

So yeah, Stannis' problems are all of his own powerhungry doing. He obviously put little  forethought into challenging the  notoriously savvy Lannisters to political games. Then fell right into Varys/Littlefinger's trap of spreading discord throughout the kingdom instead of looking at the big picture. Despite being serious, he's obviously not too bright if he couldnt figure that out when he is privy to plenty of information as a member of small council. His ego made it too easy to manipulate him. Look at how easily Melisandre was able to talk him into major actions just by telling him he's a legendary hero.

I recently read the chapter in Storm of Swords where Davos is summoned to advise Stannis on whether or not to raid a nearby island, and he rightly pointed out Stannis' lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy when he reminds   Stannis that he betrayed his King (Aerys) when Robert raised his banners (in reference to Stannis believing it just to put to death those  who didnt follow him as the rightful king). 

Basically, get your head out of yo ass, Stannis.

[Valens]

42 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yes, an average or good commander would have beat the Ironborn fleet provided he was given the Royal Navy and the Reach Navy. It would take a poor commander to lose that battle with the significant advantage he had.

That does not take away from his victory as many battles in the medieval ages were based on numbers. Few lords tried to take risks if they did not have to.

 

edit: I'd say the problem is with the perception of a fantasy reading audience. In this genre victories are only great if they are against the odds, so Robb and Stannis fans embellish their opponents armies in a bid to make their heroes look more impressive. GRRM is, at times, trying to stay true to real world medieval battles which, more often than not, had battles won through superiority (either through numbers or equipment and training).

 

Nope, he couldn't. Next question!

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Valens said:

Nope, he couldn't. Next question!

He couldn't what?

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

13 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

This was a silly post. 

If Robert hadn't started a war then the best the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands younger brother could hope for was to be a castlellen? False.

And because he doesn't have a son, his heir would have no chance to hold the kingdoms together?

You deny my assumption without any alternative or explanation why I´m wrong, but my post is silly?

My point is, Robert gave Stannis everything he has. He complains about a pretty good Lordship while Robert could´ve just as well decided to give him nothing at all.

And yes, since he considers Shireen his heir, I´d say theres no way in hell she could keep it together.

[Valens]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He couldn't what?

Average commander could never smash the Greyjoy fleet only thanks to the royal navy he has at his disposal. HE IS LEADING THEM, FFS! It's not like having a good car that enables you to take it easy, like these smart cars today.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Valens said:

Average commander could never smash the Greyjoy fleet only thanks to the royal navy he has at his disposal. HE IS LEADING THEM, FFS! It's not like having a good car that enables you to take it easy, like these smart cars today.

The Royal Navy and the Reach Navy. He greatly outnumbered the Ironbrn fleet. Many average commanders would have won given those odds.

[Valens]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Royal Navy and the Reach Navy. He greatly outnumbered the Ironbrn fleet. Many average commanders would have won given those odds.

But he wasn't average! Why do you have to take away his credit?? Just makes no sense. Others have called him a great commander anyway.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, Valens said:

But he wasn't average! Why do you have to take away his credit?? Just makes no sense. Others have called him a great commander anyway.

Try reading the posts. I did not call him average, I have even called it an impressive win

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is still an impressive victory even without inflating the numbers.

I have just pointed out that many, many other nobles could have been made Master of Ships by Robert and would have beaten the Ironborn given the numbers involved.

[Valens]

41 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Try reading the posts. I did not call him average, I have even called it an impressive win

I have just pointed out that many, many other nobles could have been made Master of Ships by Robert and would have beaten the Ironborn given the numbers involved.

Many, many-not! Another post where you overstepped yourself, lol. Few would have been able to set the trap that Stannis set. Because it was that TRAP, not just the numerical advantage, but mainly that trap that won them that battle and with minimal casualties even, obviously.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

On April 22, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Valens said:

BUT RENLY GOT THE STORM'S END. Stannis got barren little Dragonstone, which held only a symbolical, historical value-screw that! You don't get rich from memories, do you?

You would maybe have a leg to stand if Robert had later pulled Dragonstone from Stannis and granted it to Joffrey, but that is not what happened, and even so, it is Robert's prerogative as King to grant lands and titles. Stannis was granted the ancestral seat of Rboert's fallen enemy, even though Stannis's actions in the war did not really contribute to Robert's victory. Robert easily could have razed Dragonstone, but instead he created a title for his brother. 

On April 22, 2016 at 5:59 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'm sorry but the author even says Robert was generous

Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

Stannis could have remained a landless noble. Robert was extremely king to his brother and all he ever did was complain that it was not enough. That he should have been made Hand.

I agree with this. Stannis's insecurities/inferiority complex regarding his brothers are what held him back, and that's on him. If he had put on his big boy pants returned to King's Landing when Robert did, things could have gone very differently. But Stannis made his bed and now he has to deal with that.  And I say this as someone who in general likes Stannis...

[John Doe]

On 21.4.2016 at 11:14 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Stannis is one of the luckiest characters in Westeros. Born a second son his incredibly generous brother chose to give him the Lordship of Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea Islands. Islands and ports that if managed right could make him and his descendants amongst the richest and most powerful Lords in Westeros.

Not only that but he puts him on his Small Council and makes him his Master of Ships, incharge of Westeros' immense Navy. Unlike other positions on the Small Council this position is a chance for military glory that does not have to share the glory with others. Not only that but his brother allows him to keep his position on the Small Council despite taking a relaxing 9 month break leaving the governing of the realm to others like Renly.

He is incredibly lucky. Not only does his brother set him up but he gets him to marry a Florent who is prepared to actually have his children (unlike poor Robert) and his own wife is more than happy to have his Mistress around (Mel) all the time.

He also has dipshit plans like attacking a much larger army at Storm's End and somehow gets away with it, or is able to escape with his life after his poorly planned attack on King's Landing goes, unsurprisingly, tits up.  Sixteen year old,Lord Commander of the Watch, Jon Snow charitably, against his sworn vows, points out how dumb it would be to go attack the Dreadfort in enemy territory.

How this clown is still alive at this point shows just how lucky he is. Clearly the Rincewind of Westeros.

1. Dragonstone is a poor island, certainly no Storm's End. Certainly no potential to make you the richest hous, the area had also been hit by Tywin's tax policiy if I remember correctly. And the issue is not Stannis getting Dragonstone, it's that Storm's End was passed over to his younger brother who hadn't done anything during the rebellion. I don't think Stannis would complain if Robert had kept the castle for himself. 

2. Put him in charge of a fleet Stannis was tasked with building in the first place if I remember correctly, the fleet he put to good use when defeating the Greyjoys. 

3. Taking a break from the previous decade of governing the realm with others like Jon Arryn. And it's not like his services as Master of Ships where really required at that point.

4. The Florent marriage failed at pretty much everything a marriage should achieve; her house is fairly weak, the alliance unstable, she didn't birth healthy children (now I know that's not necessarily on her, but you said how lucky he was to have such a marriage, so I feel like I should mention it) and you shouldn't forget that Robert dishonered his wedding a little bit. I don't even need to mention her beard.

5. Attacking Storm's End gave him 20k men and the castle itself. Hardly what I'd call a dipshit plan. 

6. Attacking King's Landing failed due to the Wildfire and the unexpected attack from Tywin and the Tyrells. Nobody could have won under these circumstances.

7. Stannis trusted the reports from both the Umbers and the Karstarks that the Dreadfort didn't have a strong garrison, and he trusted the strenght of Moat Cailin. It's understandable he didn't know about the 3000 mountain clansmen, and I'm not sure if he had  knowledge of Victarion's retreat and Theon being Ramsay's leal servant, which made it pretty much impossible for the Ironborn to hold Bolton for a sufficient amount of time. Still he acknowledged that Jon's advice was better and followed it. And don't forget that it's not like Jon urged Stannis to follow his advice, Stannis asked for it because he knew Jon was more experienced. The idea of faulting a ruler for asking someone for advice and then following it is ridiculous. 

8. Jon Snow's age hardly matters in a world where fifteen year olds win battles and when considering that he was the one growing up in the North and not Stannis. Jon displayed more knowledge in that discussion, and understandably so. 

 

[John Doe]

On 22.4.2016 at 8:51 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Hey at least there is controversy now.  A few years ago it would have been 100% pro Stannis circlejerk...

Most of the criticisms are just there because it's antimainstream, though. 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

1. Stannis is an average to good commander, he is no where near the greatest commander of his time with Robert, Tywin, and Robb all being superior to him.  He is most likely on Randyll Tarly's level.  He didn't defeat the Ironborn alone instead Stannis had under him both the Royal Fleet and the Redwyne Fleets.  Fleets that alone outnumber the Iron Fleet thus he had a huge advantage in numbers.

2. Stannis held Storm's End for around the same amount of time that Stannis gives Penrose could have held against him.  Not being a poor commander that surrenders a siege at the first time of hunger doesn't make him super duper loyal.  Him abandoning Robert after he left to name Ned his Hand negates the good will.  Also Renly starved just as much as Stannis did.

3. Stannis was hardly the only one governing the realm with Jon Arryn for Robert.  Instead, Renly, Pycelle, LF, Varys, and Selmy were all equally assisting on the Small Council (and even stayed in KL after Arryn's death and Stannis fled.)  Individuals like Tywin was basically financing the realm and you have the other major Lord Paramounts ruling their own chosen territory. 

4. False, Robert taking the Iron Throne doesn't necessitate that Stannis get the Stormlands at all. Instead, Storm's End is still very much Robert's birthright and thus his to do with whatever he wants with.  And Robert wanted to reward both of his brothers and had already given Stannis Dragonstone so he gave Renly Storm's End.

5. According to the grand political wisdom of Cersei "lets arm the Faith Militant" Lannister, while George refers to Robert giving it to Stannis to symbolize his position as heir and in careless generosity.  Now, who to trust more Cersei or GRRM.....

6. As you mentioned Robert did give Stannis one yet that wasn't enough instead Stannis decided to sulk when not named Hand.

7. That is total of one person that really likes Stannis for himself and believes in him.  And in order to achieve that Stannis has to be basically responsible for that person's faimly's entire fortune.  In contrast, to the thousands of actual long term nobles and knights who have no love for Stannis.

8. Stannis is misjudged in that people take his wanting to get rid of "unjust" people as a symbol of his just nature rather then those being he has petty grudges and thus wants to get rid of because he doesn't like them.

• One of the greatest battle commanders, I tell you. Fair Isle was no easy task. And don't assume Stannis had the upper hand - do you think Robert's soldiers got to Pyke on foot? Someone was taking them there. Stannis had the royal fleet, and his wits.
• Penrose is holding Storm's End for what? A week, two weeks tops? Stannis held it for six months. 
• Littlefinger buggered the realm's finances, Pycelle is a Lannister pawn, Selmy is a blade, Varys brings the whispers and Renly was a child for most of Robert's reign. Who do you think helped Jon Arryn? Robert? Make me laugh.
• Stannis is Robert's heir. Until Joffrey was born, if a boar were to bite off Bobby B's liver, Stannis would get the IT. Therefore, if Bobby B and his kids are alive and well inheriting the Iron Throne, who gets Storm's End? Robert's heir. And we both know Dragonstone was a shitty gift. It is a small group of barren islands full of rebel lords. There are your lords of the Narrow Sea. Be pleased.
• Stannis himself found it a slight. Renly grew to be considered Robert's "true heir", leading to his coronation, and war. Had Stannis gotten Storm's End, and his bannermen got to know him, mayhaps he'd make some friends. Who knows?
• Stannis could've been named Hand, as much as Jon or Neddard. It fell, in the end, to Robert's preference. Is it a slight? Yes. Did Robert mean it? No. 
• Davos believes in Stannis in a way no man alive believes in Euron, or Tommen, or Cersei, or whoever. Davos gave four fingers, four sons and a lifetime to help his friend. 
• Yes. I agree with you. Stannis had his doll knight stolen from him on THE SAME DAY his parents died brutally in front of him - can you imagine? That'd make me SO pettily invested in removing whores from my cities. Can't we believe someone just actually can exist, instead of making these claims of pettiness to justify our own favorite character's sins? I mean, be a Jaime fan, gods forbid you're not, but agree with GRRM and the rest of the more-wit-than-a-turnip world and admit Stannis' just nature.

[Minsc]

45 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

• One of the greatest battle commanders, I tell you. Fair Isle was no easy task. And don't assume Stannis had the upper hand - do you think Robert's soldiers got to Pyke on foot? Someone was taking them there. Stannis had the royal fleet, and his wits.
• Penrose is holding Storm's End for what? A week, two weeks tops? Stannis held it for six months. 
• Littlefinger buggered the realm's finances, Pycelle is a Lannister pawn, Selmy is a blade, Varys brings the whispers and Renly was a child for most of Robert's reign. Who do you think helped Jon Arryn? Robert? Make me laugh.
• Stannis is Robert's heir. Until Joffrey was born, if a boar were to bite off Bobby B's liver, Stannis would get the IT. Therefore, if Bobby B and his kids are alive and well inheriting the Iron Throne, who gets Storm's End? Robert's heir. And we both know Dragonstone was a shitty gift. It is a small group of barren islands full of rebel lords. There are your lords of the Narrow Sea. Be pleased.
• Stannis himself found it a slight. Renly grew to be considered Robert's "true heir", leading to his coronation, and war. Had Stannis gotten Storm's End, and his bannermen got to know him, mayhaps he'd make some friends. Who knows?
• Stannis could've been named Hand, as much as Jon or Neddard. It fell, in the end, to Robert's preference. Is it a slight? Yes. Did Robert mean it? No. 
• Davos believes in Stannis in a way no man alive believes in Euron, or Tommen, or Cersei, or whoever. Davos gave four fingers, four sons and a lifetime to help his friend. 
• Yes. I agree with you. Stannis had his doll knight stolen from him on THE SAME DAY his parents died brutally in front of him - can you imagine? That'd make me SO pettily invested in removing whores from my cities. Can't we believe someone just actually can exist, instead of making these claims of pettiness to justify our own favorite character's sins? I mean, be a Jaime fan, gods forbid you're not, but agree with GRRM and the rest of the more-wit-than-a-turnip world and admit Stannis' just nature.

1. He just superior numbers and up against someone known to be a moron.  Don't assume that it was a vastly impressive task either.  And no he also the Redwyne Fleet.

2. Penrose had to be killed by magic.  Stannis lucked out that Mace didn't have magic while he did have it.  Still both Stannis and Martin give Penrose the same time if not for said magic.

3. Every single one of those characters listed the same as Stannis.  One can dismiss Stannis's contributions by calling him just as shipmaster the same as you attempt to dismiss those characters.  Stannis wasn't alone in assisting Jon Arryn rather there were other members of the Small Council and likely most lords were just left alone.  Meaning individuals like Tywin, Ned, Hoster, Doran, and so forth were also assisting in the running of the realm. 

4. Which is why he got Dragonstone at that time.  If Robert didn't give Storm's End to Renly?  Then it would go to either Joffrey or Tommen if that is who Robert decided to give it to after he died.  One of the most powerful lordships in the realm isn't a shitty a gift.  Moreover, being one's heir doesn't entitled someone to the others belongings while the other is still alive.

5. Stannis's opinion is irrelevant as he is whiny crybaby.  Robert gave him Dragonstone in an example of careless generosity so it wasn't a slight.

6. Robert could have also named Cersei to be his Hand, but that doesn't mean that he should have.  There was zero reasons that Robert should have named Stannis to be his Hand even if Stannis felt entitled to it.  Especially, seeing how Stannis would fail at basically every key role the Hand is meant to serve. 

7. Wow, Stannis does better than Euron and Cersei what a great accomplishment.   

8. What? You think Stannis doesn't like whores because he is just?  Seriously, rather than because he is just a stuck up prude and they remind him of his older brother.

[DarkerStar]

I always thought Stannis was perceiving a slight where there was none intended.  Stannis as Robert's then heir was given Dragonstone as was customary for the heir to the throne to have. He gave a 19 year old Stannis a spot on his small council. Not as Hand true but a spot none the less. Did a 20 year old King really need a 19 year old Hand with little experience as a ruler? Banging Delana Florent in his marriage bed was pretty messed up. Can't really blame Stannis for being salty about that even if Robert didnt know that was the bed for the wedding night. Robert gave Stannis opportunities to create his own glory. It's funny Stannis wanted sons but he wouldn't sleep with his wife. Stannis was jealous of Robert and Ned's closeness but didn't try to foster any closeness with either of his brothers.

[John Doe]

10 hours ago, Minsc said:

1. He just superior numbers and up against someone known to be a moron.  Don't assume that it was a vastly impressive task either.  And no he also the Redwyne Fleet.

2. Penrose had to be killed by magic.  Stannis lucked out that Mace didn't have magic while he did have it.  Still both Stannis and Martin give Penrose the same time if not for said magic.

3. Every single one of those characters listed the same as Stannis.  One can dismiss Stannis's contributions by calling him just as shipmaster the same as you attempt to dismiss those characters.  Stannis wasn't alone in assisting Jon Arryn rather there were other members of the Small Council and likely most lords were just left alone.  Meaning individuals like Tywin, Ned, Hoster, Doran, and so forth were also assisting in the running of the realm. 

4. Which is why he got Dragonstone at that time.  If Robert didn't give Storm's End to Renly?  Then it would go to either Joffrey or Tommen if that is who Robert decided to give it to after he died.  One of the most powerful lordships in the realm isn't a shitty a gift.  Moreover, being one's heir doesn't entitled someone to the others belongings while the other is still alive.

5. Stannis's opinion is irrelevant as he is whiny crybaby.  Robert gave him Dragonstone in an example of careless generosity so it wasn't a slight.

6. Robert could have also named Cersei to be his Hand, but that doesn't mean that he should have.  There was zero reasons that Robert should have named Stannis to be his Hand even if Stannis felt entitled to it.  Especially, seeing how Stannis would fail at basically every key role the Hand is meant to serve. 

7. Wow, Stannis does better than Euron and Cersei what a great accomplishment.   

8. What? You think Stannis doesn't like whores because he is just?  Seriously, rather than because he is just a stuck up prude and they remind him of his older brother.

1. Victarion is a good naval commander or else his fleet wouldn't have reached Mereen as intact as it has. He led probably the greatest naval expedition since the landing of the rhoynish. And as a complete moron in military matters he wouldn't be a respected captain of the biggest fleet the Ironborn, who are the epitome of naval warfare in Westeros. 

2. Still, Stannis held it for a year, which is considered a great accomplishement in Westeros. Of course you can argue with Ned about what is remarkable in their world and what isn't.

3. Ned hadn't talked with Robert in years, Doran hadn't left the Water Gardens. Do you really think they assisted Robert in KL? Obviously there is much to do aside from assigning Lord Paramounts.  Also we know Stannis wasn't merely acting as a shipmaster as he wanted to have Janos Slynt dismissed. 

4. Debatable. Storm's End should have gone to Stannis more than Renly, though, as he came before in the line of succession and actually did something noteworthy to earn it. 

5. Cersei said it was intended as a slight. Also, can you list any kings or queens who are less whiny than Stannis? Joffrey? Balon? Daenerys? Cersei? Nope. Robb maybe. 

6. I agree, it's not a slight. 

7. Ridiculous. 

Quote

Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king. Stannis had smashed Mance Rayder's wildlings at the Wall and cleaned Asha and her ironborn out of Deepwood Motte; he was Robert's brother, victor in a famous sea battle off Fair Isle, the man who had held Storm's End all through Robert's Rebellion. And he bore a hero's sword, the enchanted blade Lightbringer, whose glow lit up the night.

 

Quote

"Be silent," Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed.

The knight raised his voice instead. "Joffrey is the black worm eating the heart of the realm! Darkness was his father, and death his mother! Destroy him before he corrupts you all! Destroy them all, queen whore and king worm, vile dwarf and whispering spider, the false flowers. Save yourselves!" One of the gold cloaks knocked the man off his feet, but he continued to shout. "The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!"

So we have multiple examples outside of Davos. His men went with him through wildfire and a blizzard. The siege of Storm's End is a noteworthy example of loyalty as well. 

8. Stannis is just, whether you think he's a prude or not. 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

11 hours ago, Minsc said:

1. He just superior numbers and up against someone known to be a moron.  Don't assume that it was a vastly impressive task either.  And no he also the Redwyne Fleet.

2. Penrose had to be killed by magic.  Stannis lucked out that Mace didn't have magic while he did have it.  Still both Stannis and Martin give Penrose the same time if not for said magic.

3. Every single one of those characters listed the same as Stannis.  One can dismiss Stannis's contributions by calling him just as shipmaster the same as you attempt to dismiss those characters.  Stannis wasn't alone in assisting Jon Arryn rather there were other members of the Small Council and likely most lords were just left alone.  Meaning individuals like Tywin, Ned, Hoster, Doran, and so forth were also assisting in the running of the realm. 

4. Which is why he got Dragonstone at that time.  If Robert didn't give Storm's End to Renly?  Then it would go to either Joffrey or Tommen if that is who Robert decided to give it to after he died.  One of the most powerful lordships in the realm isn't a shitty a gift.  Moreover, being one's heir doesn't entitled someone to the others belongings while the other is still alive.

5. Stannis's opinion is irrelevant as he is whiny crybaby.  Robert gave him Dragonstone in an example of careless generosity so it wasn't a slight.

6. Robert could have also named Cersei to be his Hand, but that doesn't mean that he should have.  There was zero reasons that Robert should have named Stannis to be his Hand even if Stannis felt entitled to it.  Especially, seeing how Stannis would fail at basically every key role the Hand is meant to serve. 

7. Wow, Stannis does better than Euron and Cersei what a great accomplishment.   

8. What? You think Stannis doesn't like whores because he is just?  Seriously, rather than because he is just a stuck up prude and they remind him of his older brother.

1. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
2. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
3. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
4. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
5. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
6. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
7. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 
8. We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 

TL;DR: We have different views and this conversation would descend into swearing and name-calling were it to go forward. I respect your position as a fan of the books, but I disagree. 

Hope to see you again in a future thread! I love discussions that go long; it's just that this one is about our personal feelings about a character, not about facts. If you're interested, check out the Myrish Looking Glasses series I'm doing (they're down here). Have a nice day!

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

1. Victarion is a good naval commander or else his fleet wouldn't have reached Mereen as intact as it has. He led probably the greatest naval expedition since the landing of the rhoynish. And as a complete moron in military matters he wouldn't be a respected captain of the biggest fleet the Ironborn, who are the epitome of naval warfare in Westeros. 

2. Still, Stannis held it for a year, which is considered a great accomplishement in Westeros. Of course you can argue with Ned about what is remarkable in their world and what isn't.

3. Ned hadn't talked with Robert in years, Doran hadn't left the Water Gardens. Do you really think they assisted Robert in KL? Obviously there is much to do aside from assigning Lord Paramounts.  Also we know Stannis wasn't merely acting as a shipmaster as he wanted to have Janos Slynt dismissed. 

4. Debatable. Storm's End should have gone to Stannis more than Renly, though, as he came before in the line of succession and actually did something noteworthy to earn it. 

5. Cersei said it was intended as a slight. Also, can you list any kings or queens who are less whiny than Stannis? Joffrey? Balon? Daenerys? Cersei? Nope. Robb maybe. 

6. I agree, it's not a slight. 

7. Ridiculous. 

 

So we have multiple examples outside of Davos. His men went with him through wildfire and a blizzard. The siege of Storm's End is a noteworthy example of loyalty as well. 

8. Stannis is just, whether you think he's a prude or not. 

1. What great naval victories has Vic had that hasn't been planned by someone else?  Vic is a follower, he isn't some great inventive commander.  Defeating him with two superior sized navies manned by people that have similar naval experience (Narrow Sea and Redwyne Lords) isn't this great accomplishment.

2. Stannis and Martin both give Penrose a year and it is a magical castle that has never fallen before.

3. Westeros is a feudal kingdom, KL and the Small Council likely leaves much of the realm's management up to the Lord Paramounts with them only having to get involved if it is a dispute between two kingdoms.  The similar can be true for any of the different SC members that he attempted to dismiss by only looking at their job in the narrowest possible means.

4. It should have gone to Renly, because that is who Robert wanted to give it to and it was his to give to who ever he wanted.  With the later being the only thing that mattered.

5. Ah, the fountain of political wisdom that is Cersei Lannister truly wiser than both Cressen and George RR Martin. Sure, less whiny than Stannis: Renly, Robb, Balon, Dany, Tommen, Euron, Mance, Aegon, and around equal footing Joffrey.

8. How does connect to him having more loyalty than Cersei and Euron?

9. Most of Stannis's "just"  desires are also wanted for petty personal reasons.  I doubt Stannis actually knows any details of LF and Varys' treasons yet he still wants them dead.