It really sucks to be Stannis

[Red Helm]

27 minutes ago, Sullen said:

I'm pretty sure the people who "trivialize" the battle of Fair Isle (or the battle of the Wall) do the same to Robb's victories, though.

I know I do.

I was responding a comment that derided the victory at Fair Isle whilst praising Robb as a superior commander, despite the fact Robb has had similar advantages. I also fail to see how Robb's other two ambush victories-the Battle of the Camps and Oxcross-trump the Battle of the Wall.

[devilish]

I am not a big fan of Stannis. I find him a sour person who had placed his ambitions above the realm he had sworn to protect. If he accepted Renly's coronation he would have spared Westeros from loads of misery and he would have guaranteed his family a great future. Instead he killed his brother, he brought the Baratheon family close to extinction and allowed the Lannisters to rule Westeros.

Having said that, its undeniable that Stannis was a resource for Robert. His unshaken loyalty brought him close to starvation at Storm's end and pushed him to fight foes at the four corners of Westeros. In exhange Robert gave him a Florent in marriage (which was pretty useless both as a wife or in terms of alliances), a meaningless island with no resources and went on insulting him by soiling his marriage bed and appointing strangers as hand of the king.

Its a shame because Stannis was the hand of the King Robert needed but never had. He's sharp, honorable, a great strategist and while fiercely loyal he was not afraid to stand up when things were wrong. Robert's fierce nature, Stannis sense of justice and Renly's ability in diplomacy would have taken Westeros to a new era. 

 

 

 

[Sullen]

1 hour ago, Red Helm said:

I was responding a comment that derided the victory at Fair Isle whilst praising Robb as a superior commander, despite the fact Robb has had similar advantages. I also fail to see how Robb's other two ambush victories-the Battle of the Camps and Oxcross-trump the Battle of the Wall.

The Battle at Fair Isle was impressive, though certainly not against the odds. Those saying any good-to-average admiral could have won as well are not wrong, perhaps they would have suffered more losses, but you'd be hard pressed to lose such a battle when you have a numerical advantage as well as fitter ships.

The Camps-Whispering Woods was impressive as well, they fought a force similarly numerous force of similar capabilities and won decisively, pretty much a textbook impressive battle, in my opinion it trumps the Wall.

Oxcross is complete BS though, nothing impressive in beating a force of untrained recruits while they sleep because your magic wolf saved you the trouble of having to go through occupied territory/a few days of travel. Calling it a proof of Robb's genius is simply disingenuous, it's something anyone could have done as well if they had a magic pathfinding wolf.

The Battle of the Wall isn't impressive in my opinion, but it's not as bad as Oxcross. You've probably heard a million times why people think it's unimpressive. The Wildlings aren't organized, have no proper leadership, the attack is mostly on a bunch of starving and cold men, women, and children prone to panic, they're relatively unarmoured/underarmed, don't have any experience fighting mounted heavy knights, they're fighting heavy freaking cavalry, they're taken completely by surprise by a force/commander they didn't even know existed/was interested in fighting them. It was a clear and decisive victory, but that's far from something I'd consider impressive, one charge of heavy cavalry from anyone and they would have broken, there's no impressive tactical prowess here.

41 minutes ago, devilish said:

Its a shame because Stannis was the hand of the King Robert needed but never had. He's sharp, honorable, a great strategist and while fiercely loyal he was not afraid to stand up when things were wrong. Robert's fierce nature, Stannis sense of justice and Renly's ability in diplomacy would have taken Westeros to a new era. 

Stannis is not honourable, of dubious loyalty, and the position of Hand requires the ability to concede and deal with Lords on the behalf of the King, something Stannis is grossly inapt at. Jon was a perfect fit for Hand, Stannis would have been a disaster.

You're also severely underselling Dragonstone and its vassals. It's not as rich and powerful as Storm's End, but it's still one of the most powerful and prestigious lordships in Westeros.

[John Doe]

On 24.4.2016 at 1:09 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

If Robert handed out his gifts of Lordship after the Greyjoy Rebellion then you may have a point of Stannis being the more deserving brother. After Robert's Rebellion that was not the case. Storm's End is expected to hold out for around a year and he failed with his take to capture the Royal children.

In Roberts eyes he was not more deserving and likely handed out their gifts based on his needs as King and not their feelings and insecurities.

I'm not saying Robert was obligated to give the castle to him, but Stannis being salty about Renly getting it instead of him is understandable considering he is ahead of him in the line of succession, took Dragonstone (albeit the Targaryens escaped) and held Storm's End. Which was impressive because, if I remember correctly, it held out for so long despite of not being fully supplied. I guess your estimate is for a fully supplied castle. So he did much more to deserve it than Renly. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

19 hours ago, devilish said:

I am not a big fan of Stannis. I find him a sour person who had placed his ambitions above the realm he had sworn to protect.

Well I am. He is one of the best written characters in the series with understandable conflicting motives. While I don't think he'd make a great King I do enjoy his character and the series would be much the poorer if had been beaten by Renly.

Quote

Having said that, its undeniable that Stannis was a resource for Robert. His unshaken loyalty brought him close to starvation at Storm's end and pushed him to fight foes at the four corners of Westeros.

I really don't understand how this makes Stannis special in Westeros. All sons, younger brothers and cousins have to do the same for the Ruler of their House. It is part and parcel of being born noble. Something that he has been richly rewarded for. The vast majority of nobles have not been treated as well as Robert has treated his brothers. This idea that he has somehow been hard done by is ridiculous.

If Stannis did not like the status quo he could have refused at any point and gone elsewhere without the great trappings that came of being the younger brother of a Great Lord/King.

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In exhange Robert gave him a Florent in marriage (which was pretty useless both as a wife or in terms of alliances),

A Florent marriage is pretty good. They are one of the richest and most prestigious Houses in the Reach (the most powerful realm in Westeros).

And while the marriage was almost certainly arranged by Robert for political reasons, like the majority of marriages, there is no evidence that Stannis was against it or was somehow forced into this arrangement.

In hindsight it looks unfavorable because of  the lack of healthy children (in particular a son) that the marriage has produced and a husband and wife that don't really get along. The former is not Robert's fault, it is an unfortunate quirk of fate, and the latter has more to do with Selyse AND Stannis than it does Robert.

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a meaningless island with no resources

Well that is hardly true. Dragonstone is clearly a rich Island. The Targaryens did not move there from Essos simply for the fishing, it was a powerful trade hub. The fact that Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, was suspected of being the benefactor of the expensive Tourney of Harrenhal shows that it has decent resources.

More importantly he was made the Lord of the Narrow Sea Islands. Driftmark alone was once as rich as the likes of the Lannisters and Hightowers. Robert made him one of the 10 most powerful Lords in the Realm. It is hardly a meaningless island with no resources.

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Its a shame because Stannis was the hand of the King Robert needed but never had.

But that is not true, not true at all. Stannis would fail to get along with the King, with the Small Council and with many of the Great Lords of the land. Rather than make the Kings life easier it would make it worse with Robert constantly having to step in and overrule his Hand.

While Robert was a poor monarch the principles of his rule was uniting the Kingdom while maintaining the status quo by not rocking the boat. He was well aware that the support he had was not entirely stable and did not want to risk that. Stannis would have done so.

Stannis was an exceptional Master of Ships, may have made a very good Master of Coin but would have been a poor Hand, Master of Law or even Master of Whispers for Robert (maybe not a different King).

 

11 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'm not saying Robert was obligated to give the castle to him, but Stannis being salty about Renly getting it instead of him is understandable considering he is ahead of him in the line of succession, took Dragonstone (albeit the Targaryens escaped) and held Storm's End. Which was impressive because, if I remember correctly, it held out for so long despite of not being fully supplied. I guess your estimate is for a fully supplied castle. So he did much more to deserve it than Renly. 

It is not my estimate but the authors and Stannis himself. And I'm really not sure that he did ''much more' than Renly considering Renly was present as well. Stannis ruled as he was next in line, had Stannis not been there Renly would have ruled. It is possible that Robert does not really think either brother was instrumental in keeping the castle under Barathon command but the castle and garrison itself.

[devilish]

17 hours ago, Sullen said:

The Battle at Fair Isle was impressive, though certainly not against the odds. Those saying any good-to-average admiral could have won as well are not wrong, perhaps they would have suffered more losses, but you'd be hard pressed to lose such a battle when you have a numerical advantage as well as fitter ships.

The Camps-Whispering Woods was impressive as well, they fought a force similarly numerous force of similar capabilities and won decisively, pretty much a textbook impressive battle, in my opinion it trumps the Wall.

Oxcross is complete BS though, nothing impressive in beating a force of untrained recruits while they sleep because your magic wolf saved you the trouble of having to go through occupied territory/a few days of travel. Calling it a proof of Robb's genius is simply disingenuous, it's something anyone could have done as well if they had a magic pathfinding wolf.

The Battle of the Wall isn't impressive in my opinion, but it's not as bad as Oxcross. You've probably heard a million times why people think it's unimpressive. The Wildlings aren't organized, have no proper leadership, the attack is mostly on a bunch of starving and cold men, women, and children prone to panic, they're relatively unarmoured/underarmed, don't have any experience fighting mounted heavy knights, they're fighting heavy freaking cavalry, they're taken completely by surprise by a force/commander they didn't even know existed/was interested in fighting them. It was a clear and decisive victory, but that's far from something I'd consider impressive, one charge of heavy cavalry from anyone and they would have broken, there's no impressive tactical prowess here.

Stannis is not honourable, of dubious loyalty, and the position of Hand requires the ability to concede and deal with Lords on the behalf of the King, something Stannis is grossly inapt at. Jon was a perfect fit for Hand, Stannis would have been a disaster.

You're also severely underselling Dragonstone and its vassals. It's not as rich and powerful as Storm's End, but it's still one of the most powerful and prestigious lordships in Westeros.

In terms of GOT, Stannis was an impressive general. Its not as if Robert B, Eddard S and Tywin Lannister can be compared to Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan in terms of strategy prowess.

I also think that many (Stannis included) underestimated Robert B greatly. The oaf may have been totally devoid in human relationships (which was his main problem), he was constantly drunk, he wasn't great in management and couldn't keep it in his pants but military wise he was no idiot. He became king because of the Northern alliance (Arryn-Stark-Tully) and considering how he kept sending bills to the Tyrells-Lannisters for them to pay he wasn't exactly doing a great job in it. With Sweet Robin soon succeeding his mentor Jon Arryn and with Tyrion (whose hardly Cersei's no 1 fan) potentially succeeding the ageing Tywin, Robert needed more allies through marriage. Hence why he gave the big prize to the more diplomatic Renly (hoping to capitalise on his potential marriage with Margaery) and Joffrey to the Starks (hence entering the Northern alliance). If Robert survived I wont be surprised if he would have tried to convince the old lion to put Tommen heir to CR and have Mycella marry either Edmure or Willas. 

 

 

[Sullen]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

In terms of GOT, Stannis was an impressive general. Its not as if Robert B, Eddard S and Tywin Lannister can be compared to Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan in terms of strategy prowess.

I also think that many (Stannis included) underestimated Robert B greatly. The oaf may have been totally devoid in human relationships (which was his main problem), he was constantly drunk, he wasn't great in management and couldn't keep it in his pants but military wise he was no idiot. He became king because of the Northern alliance (Arryn-Stark-Tully) and considering how he kept sending bills to the Tyrells-Lannisters for them to pay he wasn't exactly doing a great job in it. With Sweet Robin soon succeeding his mentor Jon Arryn and with Tyrion (whose hardly Cersei's no 1 fan) potentially succeeding the ageing Tywin, Robert needed more allies through marriage. Hence why he gave the big prize to the more diplomatic Renly (hoping to capitalise on his potential marriage with Margaery) and Joffrey to the Starks (hence entering the Northern alliance). If Robert survived I wont be surprised if he would have tried to convince the old lion to put Tommen heir to CR and have Mycella marry either Edmure or Willas. 

Robert, Eddard, and Tywin are no Subutai, true, but the point is that they never blundered militarily as Stannis did. No one says that Stannis isn't a good general/admiral, simply that he isn't the bee's knees/the greatest military genius that ever graced Westeros as some people would have you believe.

I agree with your assessment of Robert, he was indeed extremely underrated, I disagree with your supposition about what he would have done with Myrcella though, I think there are hints that he planned to have her marry Robb, so that he could get even closer to being family with his dear Eddard, it's not strategically advantageous, but Robert was a man ruled by his passions.

[John Doe]

7 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is not my estimate but the authors and Stannis himself. And I'm really not sure that he did ''much more' than Renly considering Renly was present as well. Stannis ruled as he was next in line, had Stannis not been there Renly would have ruled. It is possible that Robert does not really think either brother was instrumental in keeping the castle under Barathon command but the castle and garrison itself.

That is beside the point, the point is that the castle wasn't fully supplied, therefor the estimate doesn't work for the siege Stannis comanded. 

Renly was four or five years old at that time? Sure he did the same amount of work as Stannis did. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Robert, Eddard, and Tywin are no Subutai, true, but the point is that they never blundered militarily as Stannis did. No one says that Stannis isn't a good general/admiral, simply that he isn't the bee's knees/the greatest military genius that ever graced Westeros as some people would have you believe.

I agree with your assessment of Robert, he was indeed extremely underrated, I disagree with your supposition about what he would have done with Myrcella though, I think there are hints that he planned to have her marry Robb, so that he could get even closer to being family with his dear Eddard, it's not strategically advantageous, but Robert was a man ruled by his passions.

Seriously? Tywin left his fleet undefended when CR is just few miles away from the iron islands. He also handled half his army to Jamie who was reckless and left the Stark hostages in Cersei's and Joffrey's hands despite knowing they are incompetent. If handled correctly (ie Eddard is forgiven if he concede that he was mislead by Renly and then allowed to join the Northern forces while his daughters are kept in Winterfell as 'guests') the North and the Riverlands would have fought alongside the Lannisters in this war. Those are unforgiven judgements. 

 

I much doubt that Robert was planning to marry Mrycella with Robb.

a- Robb is older then Sansa and around Joffrey's age. If Robert's intention was to marry Robb to Myrcella then he would have talked about it with Eddard when they were in Winterfell. 

b- The North got an elite ward (Theon), a queen and the hand of the king title. That's good enough to consolidate an alliance. With the Lannisters getting more influential by the day, Robert needed to diversify his alliances as much as possible. I believe Robert would have pushed for Renly's marriage with Margaery and he would avoid a potential screw up from Renly (if Renly decided to rebel against Joffrey, the Reach and the Stormlands could potentially invade KL before the North could organize itself especially at a delicate time when an ageing Tywin is on his death bed) by promising Myrcella to Willas. Mace would be over the moon with a daughter marrying a the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and his crippled son marrying a queen and would have gone to hell and back in gratitude.

[Ruhail]

 

[Sullen]

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Seriously? Tywin left his fleet undefended when CR is just few miles away from the iron islands. He also handled half his army to Jamie who was reckless and left the Stark hostages in Cersei's and Joffrey's hands despite knowing they are incompetent. If handled correctly (ie Eddard is forgiven if he concede that he was mislead by Renly and then allowed to join the Northern forces while his daughters are kept in Winterfell as 'guests') the North and the Riverlands would have fought alongside the Lannisters in this war. Those are unforgiven judgements. 

He left his fleet undefended during peace time, nothing wrong with that, keeping a host at all times in Lannisport in case that one of the other Seven Kingdoms rebels and burns your fleet would be costly and wholly unefficient.

He never had Stark hostages in the first place either, Cersei and Joffrey were the ones to have captured Eddard/Sansa, and Tywin was stuck dealing with the Riverlords in any case, and then Robb.

None of the the two are blameworthy.

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

I much doubt that Robert was planning to marry Mrycella with Robb.

a- Robb is older then Sansa and around Joffrey's age. If Robert's intention was to marry Robb to Myrcella then he would have talked about it with Eddard when they were in Winterfell. 

Eddard and Robert match Princess Myrcella and Robb together at the feast in Winterfell, and Arya/Bran/Jon (don't recall which) notices that Robb and Myrcella seem fond of each other.

12 minutes ago, devilish said:

b- The North got an elite ward (Theon), a queen and the hand of the king title. That's good enough to consolidate an alliance. With the Lannisters getting more influential by the day, Robert needed to diversify his alliances as much as possible. I believe Robert would have pushed for Renly's marriage with Margaery and he would avoid a potential screw up from Renly (if Renly decided to rebel against Joffrey, the Reach and the Stormlands could potentially invade KL before the North could organize itself especially at a delicate time when an ageing Tywin is on his death bed) by promising Myrcella to Willas. Mace would be over the moon with a daughter marrying a the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and his crippled son marrying a queen and would have gone to hell and back in gratitude.

I doubt anyone (apart from Cersei, really) envisioned Renly's Rebellion, as it depended entirely on several specific conditions (Robert dies early, Renly and Joffrey are on bad terms, Cersei seizes power instead of Eddard), so I don't think Robert had protecting his son from him on his mind. In fact, I think Robert did not think much of his children, him marrying Joffrey to Sansa was not to fortify an alliance of any kind, it was to get closer to Ned, by his own admission. A match between Robb and Myrcella would do exactly the same.

Besides, if Robert were to make a match with a Tyrell, I doubt he'd choose Willas, Loras is considerably more likely.

[devilish]

15 minutes ago, Sullen said:

He left his fleet undefended during peace time, nothing wrong with that, keeping a host at all times in Lannisport in case that one of the other Seven Kingdoms rebels and burns your fleet would be costly and wholly unefficient.

He never had Stark hostages in the first place either, Cersei and Joffrey were the ones to have captured Eddard/Sansa, and Tywin was stuck dealing with the Riverlords in any case, and then Robb.

None of the the two are blameworthy.

Eddard and Robert match Princess Myrcella and Robb together at the feast in Winterfell, and Arya/Bran/Jon (don't recall which) notices that Robb and Myrcella seem fond of each other.

I doubt anyone (apart from Cersei, really) envisioned Renly's Rebellion, as it depended entirely on several specific conditions (Robert dies early, Renly and Joffrey are on bad terms, Cersei seizes power instead of Eddard), so I don't think Robert had protecting his son from him on his mind. In fact, I think Robert did not think much of his children, him marrying Joffrey to Sansa was not to fortify an alliance of any kind, it was to get closer to Ned, by his own admission. A match between Robb and Myrcella would do exactly the same.

Besides, if Robert were to make a match with a Tyrell, I doubt he'd choose Willas, Loras is considerably more likely.

a- The iron islanders are pirates and reavers. You can never fully trust them. Also the fleet could be attacked by pirates who wanted a quick loot. The funny thing is that a citizen of a small (and once poor) island sitting just in front of an entire continent plagued by pirates I can assure you that safety can be secured. Sentries can be built across the shores to make sure that the capital is warned of an attack before it actually happens, chains can be built that secure the harbour. and powerful fortresses can be build that makes a quick attack by sea impossible to achieve. Ah and I almost forgot. Putting all the fleet in one place is madness/

b- Eddard and both Stark girls were in KL at one point. The fact that one managed to flee (alongside Renly) and the Lord Paramount lost his head is clear testament of the mismanagement KL was in. Tywin should have reached KL immediately to make sure that such a thing would never happen. Jeez even the PR to that is horrible. The last Stark Lord who ended up executed for treason was Rickard Stark and that was done by the mad king just a generation before. Instead Sansa and Arya could have turned into wards and Eddard into an ally. 

c- If the king wanted that marriage to happen then he would have clearly stated it. He got what he wanted through Sansa. Myrcella was better off married to someone else, probably someone who can provide something that the North couldn't provide  ($$$)

d- Robert was (rightfully) terrified that his kingdom was going to collapse after his death and he didn't rate Joffrey very much. Its only fair that he would have tried to weave as many alliances as her possibly can

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

That is beside the point, the point is that the castle wasn't fully supplied, therefor the estimate doesn't work for the siege Stannis comanded. 

It works according to what Stannis says. He never points out that supplies were an issue. I'm only judging on what we have been told. I have no idea why some of you Stannis fans are so insecure that you have to try and make him some special snowflake that had to have held out longer than anyone else could have when the Stannis himself is quite adamant that Courtnay could have done the same.

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

Renly was four or five years old at that time? Sure he did the same amount of work as Stannis did. 

Maybe Robert thinks he did. Maybe Robert actually thinks a better person in charge would not have seen the likes of Wylde and others try to change sides and actually kept up morale.

It is all just speculation here, but it is possible that Robert was not as impressed with Stannis' performance as Stannis and others are.

[Red Helm]

On 26/04/2016 at 5:36 PM, Sullen said:

The Battle at Fair Isle was impressive, though certainly not against the odds. Those saying any good-to-average admiral could have won as well are not wrong, perhaps they would have suffered more losses, but you'd be hard pressed to lose such a battle when you have a numerical advantage as well as fitter ships.

The Camps-Whispering Woods was impressive as well, they fought a force similarly numerous force of similar capabilities and won decisively, pretty much a textbook impressive battle, in my opinion it trumps the Wall.

Oxcross is complete BS though, nothing impressive in beating a force of untrained recruits while they sleep because your magic wolf saved you the trouble of having to go through occupied territory/a few days of travel. Calling it a proof of Robb's genius is simply disingenuous, it's something anyone could have done as well if they had a magic pathfinding wolf.

The Battle of the Wall isn't impressive in my opinion, but it's not as bad as Oxcross. You've probably heard a million times why people think it's unimpressive. The Wildlings aren't organized, have no proper leadership, the attack is mostly on a bunch of starving and cold men, women, and children prone to panic, they're relatively unarmoured/underarmed, don't have any experience fighting mounted heavy knights, they're fighting heavy freaking cavalry, they're taken completely by surprise by a force/commander they didn't even know existed/was interested in fighting them. It was a clear and decisive victory, but that's far from something I'd consider impressive, one charge of heavy cavalry from anyone and they would have broken, there's no impressive tactical prowess here.

I absolutely dispute your assertions regarding the Battle of the Wall.

The battle was scarcely heavy cavalry charging into old, sick men, women, and children (there was merely panic on the outer edges of camp with the archers to cause disarray; something removed from the battle). Stannis and his host directly engaged spearmen, cavalry, raiders, chariot riders, and giants and mammoth. Not as impressive as Jaime's 2,000 something host at the Whispering Wood man for man? True. Except the numbers counteract this somewhat as they were far more dire: 1,000 against 20,000, as oppose to 6,000 against 1,000-2,000.

Furthermore the Wildings were given time to form-up (they were already committed to a battle by the clever Eastwatch ploy before the cavalry was visible). Jaime's host did not have such a favorable position when Robb's men came charging down. Furthermore, Mance had hundreds of giants and mammoths. These are unconventional weapons, and we've seen the damage merely one giant can do, let alone an especially mobile one wielding a weapon. For God's sake, I could employ the same tactic you used by stating they're [Wildings] fighting heavy freaking cavalry; they're [southron knights] fighting freaking giants riding mammoths.

The Battle of the Wall was a surprise attack (before turning into a full-on battle on an open field), but scarcely something to be scoffed at considering Stannis was outnumbered to such an extent and actually employed clever tactics by baiting the Wildings with the men from Eastwatch. Furthermore, the Wilding host only broke once Mance was subdued, as the Royalist army at the Trident did the exact same thing once Rhaegar and its Kingsguard commanders were killed (or subdued in Barristan's case). Therefore, it is quite apparent the Wildings did have a leadership structure. If I recall correctly, the raiders and spearmen at the Battle of the Wall were under Harma and Tormund's command respectively.

So given these facts, you can see now why I cannot fathom the Battle of the Wall being disparaged whilst at the same time the Whispering Wood is held up as a paradigm. I am not trying to deride Robb as mediocre, but I do not like what I perceive as a double standard with Stannis.

Edit: even though you conceded Fair Isle was impressive but worth a knock or two for outnumbering the Ironborn, does that also mean we can knock an impressive victory like the Whispering Wood for having the odds stacked the Stark's favor?

The more I think of it, the more double standards that come to mind, such as Stannis being knocked for having his fleet augmented by Redwyne at Fair Isle, but not Robb for having his cavalry augmented by the Riverlords at the Whispering Wood, or the Tully assistance at the Camps

[Red Helm]

I'm sick of Stannis being disparaged, so I'll leave this:

Scroll down for Miodrag's counterargument (quoted by Antler's Fury) regarding the Stannis-bashing for not informing Robert of the twincest.

And of course Stannis only enlisted Arryn's aid because he thought telling Robert the truth himself would be outright disregarded and viewed as an evil, usurping ploy.

[Trigger Warning]

What opinion would Stannis have had on the matter had he been the king and Robert his younger brother. Would he think danger a good enough excuse, I doubt it. 
 

[Red Helm]

17 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

What opinion would Stannis have had on the matter had he been the king and Robert his younger brother. Would he think danger a good enough excuse, I doubt it.

Stannis made his decision because of Robert's personality and other factors (as Miodrag pointed out). Stannis is not Robert, so everything is altered on such a fundamental level that Robert not telling Stannis may be have no reason or rational behind it whatsoever (unlike Stannis).

[John Doe]

On 27.4.2016 at 1:24 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It works according to what Stannis says. He never points out that supplies were an issue. I'm only judging on what we have been told. I have no idea why some of you Stannis fans are so insecure that you have to try and make him some special snowflake that had to have held out longer than anyone else could have when the Stannis himself is quite adamant that Courtnay could have done the same.

Maybe Robert thinks he did. Maybe Robert actually thinks a better person in charge would not have seen the likes of Wylde and others try to change sides and actually kept up morale.

It is all just speculation here, but it is possible that Robert was not as impressed with Stannis' performance as Stannis and others are.

Check your facts before accusing people of "making someone some special snowflake". 

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 If the garrison's supplies had been sufficient to the task, the castle might have held out indefinitely, but the war had come quickly and the storehouses and granaries were only half-full.

And in case you're reaching for the argument that perhaps Penrose wasn't well provisioned either, here is another quote you should consider. 

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The castle is strongly garrisoned and well provisioned, Ser Cortnay Penrose is a seasoned commander, and the trebuchet has not been built that could breach the walls of Storm's End.

Sure, you can speculate without evidence if that's what you're into. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, John Doe said:

Check your facts before accusing people of "making someone some special snowflake". 

And in case you're reaching for the argument that perhaps Penrose wasn't well provisioned either, here is another quote you should consider. 

Sure, you can speculate without evidence if that's what you're into. 

Again, I am not seeing your point. Stannis had provisions and even had outside help from the likes of Davos. The author and Stannis himself both agree that holding that castle for a year should be the norm for a capable commander.

What Stannis did was not unique and I have no idea why some of his fans are so sensitive to the fact that others could have done what he did.

His brother rewarded him, generously infact, sadly it was not good enough for Stannis but then nothing ever was. We see that from his memories about his bird.

[A Man Has Said]

Stannis, as many above have pointed out, was a whiner who expected obeisance from everyone without having earned it. But here are the main two points against him to my mind.

 

1) Far from being 'all about duty,' Stannis fled King's Landing a couple of days after Robert left for Winterfell in Book 1, and didn't return to the mainland until he did so only to battle his younger brother at Storm's End. Nowhere in the book is Stannis' motive for this explained, but BEFORE Robert's death we hear (Arya overhears, via Varys, actually) that Stannis is 'gathering swords.' Why? It's beyond comprehension. Clearly his DUTY was to serve on the Small Council in his brother's absence. ALL explanations by Stannis' supporters are based on pure speculation, NONE on the actual text of the books.

 

2) It's a small matter, but goes directly to Stannis' character and the root of all his problems and complaints. In the books he declares (more than once, if I'm not mistaken) that 'A king has no friends, he only has subjects.' But the truth of it is, Stannis didn't have any friends LONG before he was king. He never had any friends because his personality was so intensely self-centered that he expected others to give to him, but never gave back. As such he was the author of his own misfortunes.

Here's a clear example of that second point. In A Clash of Kings, Stannis is in conversation with Caitlyn, the very recent widow of Ned Stark. He immediately declares, "Ned Stark was no friend to me" and Caitlyn reminds him that it was Ned who lifted the siege of Storm's End when Stannis was at the point of starvation. But Stannis gives Ned no credit for that, because, "Ned was only doing his duty, under orders from Robert." Well, what's wrong with that attitude? A couple of things.

- first of all, he doesn't give any credit or gratitude to Robert for giving those orders either. Not to mention that at the time it happened it's unlikely that Robert had even been crowned King yet. The Rebellion was probably still being led to some degree by a council consisting of Ned, Robert, John Arryn and Hoster Tully. So credit could have been due to all those people for recognizing and responding to Stannis' plight.

- secondly, Stannis DOES give credit to himself for his actions in dealing with the Ironborn. But wasn't that under orders too, and just doing his duty? Of course it was. So, he's quite miserly when it comes to giving others credit, but generous when it comes to his own accomplishments.

Clearly, whatever else you say about Stannis, he was not a nice guy. He is written as a villain - not on the order of some of the much worse villains in the series like Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton, but a villain nonetheless. He kills his own brother in order to gain control of the Stormlands forces, then squanders those forces at the Battle of the Blackwater. His actions lead to the defeat of Robb's forces in the Riverlands, and victory for the Lannisters. If he had just stayed on Dragonstone, a coalition of Robb's and Renly's forces would have destroyed the Lannisters, I have little doubt of that. Instead, his meddling broke up that coalition and forced the formation of one between the Lannisters and the Tyrrells. Well done Stannis. Well done indeed.

Finally, by abandoning Robert at a critical time, and by killing Renly, and having no heir himself, he brought about the fall of the House of Baratheon. From an in-universe perspective, that's about the worst crime that any member of a Great House could commit.