Ser Criston Cole

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

Tywin is example of how to not deal with enemies. Only because Lannisters are in power Yandel have praised Tywin in his book.

He was cruel, pettily vengeful and blinded by his inheritance so much that all his children in end took other way than he wanted.

It is true, that Rhaenyra have right to claim that Velaryons were children of Laenor as he acknowledged them, but because in fact they were bastards it would probably create much havoc after her death. In fact there is no proof for Stannis that Jaime and Cersei have been fucking, but yet it still gives him (in his eyes) reason to start war. Had Aegon the Younger grown up to another man, he could try to claim throne by naming his half-brothers bastards. 

 

in the first instance. You make my point for me. 

In the second you miss the point entirely! The sole reason Stannis goes to war against Cersei's children is because they are HER children, and not Roberts. The throne descends from Robert, he is the blood royal, But Cersei (who is not) has passed three children who are not the Blood Royal off as Roberts kids

Rhaenyra is the blood royal, she can get pregnant by Mushroom as far as the passing of the crown is concerned, so long as that is a secret and no one outwardly says it, her children are the blood royal no matter if they are her husbands or a pot washers from Piss water lane. It is her blood that counts, not Laenor's. Laenor was nothing more than a politically convenient consort for her. Or do you think his (Laenors) own Father was supporting Rhaenyra with the misguided belief the three Valaryon boys were actually biologically his grandsons? 

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

in the first instance. You make my point for me. 

In the second you miss the point entirely! The sole reason Stannis goes to war against Cersei's children is because they are HER children, and not Roberts. The throne descends from Robert, he is the blood royal, But Cersei (who is not) has passed three children who are not the Blood Royal off as Roberts kids

Rhaenyra is the blood royal, she can get pregnant by Mushroom as far as the passing of the crown is concerned, so long as that is a secret and no one outwardly says it, her children are the blood royal no matter if they are her husbands or a pot washers from Piss water lane. It is her blood that counts, not Laenor's. Laenor was nothing more than a politically convenient consort for her. Or do you think his (Laenors) own Father was supporting Rhaenyra with the misguided belief the three Valaryon boys were actually biologically his grandsons? 

You miss the point that bastards never can inherit and even tho laenor has acknowleged them as sons, they were bastards no matter what you say. They inherited none of their parents looks, and noone  in the long run could believe them as true velaryons. Everyone knew about it but because rhaenyra was royal princess not many people dared to say it in her presence. Even in dorne bastards of ruling lady can't inherit so why should bastards of queen regnant? Don't write that there no evidence of it, because simply by looking at jace, luke and joff you can realize that they are not laenors sons. Blood counts as you say and therefore, realm would sooner or later rise againt these "Strong" kings, they were blood of Rhaenyra but as well blood of Harwin Breakbones. And Joffrey Baratheon would be facto king then as Robert acknowledged him as his son and heir.

 

About Corlys, he supported Rhaenyra for his own reasons. Very early in war he forces rhaenyra to acknowledge addam and alyn as bastards of her late husband because he most probably wanted his own blood to succeed him and it is quite obvious that corlys was in fact father of addam and alyn. 

[Lord Varys]

@Paxter Redwyne

You are wrong in your assertion that 'bastards can never inherit'. Even not legitimized bastards can - Robb Stark considers Jon Snow an heir to Winterfell, Larence Snow is considered an heir to Hornwood, Rolland Storm considers himself to be the new Lord of Nightsong following the death of his brother, Bryce Caron, Ronard Storm deposed his royal brother King Morden II Durrandon and ruled over the Stormlands without ever being legitimized as far as we know, and both Trystane Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair were declared without any sort of legitimization.

And The Weirwoods Eyes is right - any child born in wedlock is by default considered to be the child of the husband - unless he does not acknowledge it as his child and accuses his wife of adultery and has her punished for that (which technically should be a rather easy thing for a lord or king).

Laenor and Viserys I both recognized Rhaenyra's sons as Laenor's sons, and therefore they were Laenor's sons. Period.

The same actually goes for Cersei's children. Robert recognized them as his children, too, and legally they were until such time as he, King Robert Baratheon, decided to decree otherwise. Which he never did.

Monarchies are not democracies, and subjects don't have any say whether the children of their lord or king are indeed his seed or not. They can think and gossip about such matters but they are not allowed an opinion.

And the same actually goes for Cersei's children, too. We have reason to believe that Robert had no idea about and did not approve of Jaime's affair with Cersei. But assume for a moment that he was - then Stannis and Jon Arryn would have to accept that. It is nobody's business to second-guess the paternity of the king's children.

And Stannis is actually a rebel and traitor for not acknowledging Joffrey as his king. He has no proof that the boy is not Robert's seed. He could have talked to Robert about his suspicions, and then Robert could have decided what to do about it. But Stannis had no legal right to proclaim Cersei's children bastards. Legally, Joffrey Baratheon was Robert Baratheon's son, heir, and successor until the day Robert died (in large part thanks to Eddard Stark, actually), and by not going through Robert and his council Stannis actually broke the law.

If it was okay to do something like that then any citizen of the UK today should have the right to demand paternity tests on Elizabeth II, Charles, William, George, etc. to ensure that only truly royal children rise to the throne. But that's not happening.

Children not looking like the parents is no proof that they are not their biological parents. That happens from time to time after all.

As to Corlys:

There were issues with the succession of Driftmark but they seemed to have been resolved by the fact that Jace and Luke both had been betrothed to Laena's daughters Baela and Rhaena. Corlys line would continue to rule Driftmark. And lets not forget that Corlys' own son most likely was the cause for this whole mess in the first place. Rhaenyra Targaryen was a gorgeous and fertile young girl - Laenor Velaryon was most likely the guy who refused to have intercourse with her and thus forced her (with his approval) to look for a sperm donor elsewhere. Corlys could not fault Rhaenyra for that. He could either have no grandchildren by her and Laenor or grandchildren that were not necessarily fathered by Laenor.

[Paxter Redwyne]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are wrong in your assertion that 'bastards can never inherit'. Even not legitimized bastards can - Robb Stark considers Jon Snow an heir to Winterfell, Larence Snow is considered an heir to Hornwood, Rolland Storm considers himself to be the new Lord of Nightsong following the death of his brother, Bryce Caron, Ronard Storm deposed his royal brother King Morden II Durrandon and ruled over the Stormlands without ever being legitimized as far as we know, and both Trystane Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair were declared without any sort of legitimization.

But all these examples are much different than with rhaenyra. Jon snow, Larence Snow, Rolland Storm are all last male members of their houses and because o it they have legal claim on lordships as other branches of their houses are extinct. 

Ronard Storm usurped his brother's crown by force, while trystane truefyre and gaemon palehair considered themselves last male members of viserys and alicent line (people thought that aegon ii was dead at this point). They have acted against the law.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Monarchies are not democracies, and subjects don't have any say whether the children of their lord or king are indeed his seed or not. They can think and gossip about such matters but they are not allowed an opinion.

It's true but because of their "strong" look, lords of westeros could easily claim that they have no right to sit iron throne, and starting new rebellion. Ad as we know in robert's case, rebellions don't care about king's or queen's word.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Stannis is actually a rebel and traitor for not acknowledging Joffrey as his king. He has no proof that the boy is not Robert's seed. He could have talked to Robert about his suspicions, and then Robert could have decided what to do about it. But Stannis had no legal right to proclaim Cersei's children bastards. Legally, Joffrey Baratheon was Robert Baratheon's son, heir, and successor until the day Robert died (in large part thanks to Eddard Stark, actually), and by not going through Robert and his council Stannis actually broke the law.

This is more or less what i wanted to say about similarity with joffrey baratheon and jacaerys velaryon. People rebelling against rhaenyra and jace would be traitors only as long as they are losing war like in stannis case. 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And lets not forget that Corlys' own son most likely was the cause for this whole mess in the first place. Rhaenyra Targaryen was a gorgeous and fertile young girl - Laenor Velaryon was most likely the guy who refused to have intercourse with her and thus forced her (with his approval) to look for a sperm donor elsewhere. Corlys could not fault Rhaenyra for that. He could either have no grandchildren by her and Laenor or grandchildren that were not necessarily fathered by Laenor.

Laenor for almost 100% was unable to perform, so you are right that it was laenor's fault but in patriarch society like westeros, women are always blamed for fertility problems. 

Some Grand Maester even dismissed his homosexuality by saying some bullshit about eating fish.

And Corlys tried everything to put his blood as heir to driftmark (first by marrying baela and rhaena to jace and luke as you wrote, and then by forcing rhaenyra to acknowledge addam and alyn), so he wasn't content with fact that rhaenyra sons what have been his heirs after laenor's death weren't of his blood.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Paxter Redwyne

 The Weirwoods Eyes is right

Think I might print this off and frame it my Lord. 

 

But yes, basically I agree with Lord Varys, everything he has said here is correct. 

Imagine this if you will. Say my own dear Queen Lizzy (there is sarcasm there, I am no monarchist) had got pregnant by someone other than prince Philip and Charlie boy was actually not his. But no one had ever officially accused her, and the principle of an inherited crown is sound, because it is she who is Queen and Philip her royal consort. No one would be questioning her about it, or taking up arms to stop Charles becoming king. And that would be the end of it. Even if he just happened to look sod all like Philip. 

We do as it is have a royal prince who looks nothing like his royal father, but luckily he is now 5th in line to the throne so no one is going to kick up a stink. In fact even when he was third in line no one demanded a blood test. It has never gone beyond the casual observation of how much he looks like one of his mothers known lovers. 

Also evidence from the recent exhumation of Richard III has revealed that potentially the entire Plantagenet line was lacking the correct DNA and that someone queen somewhere in the line was passing her lovers offspring off as the Kings.  

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Another thing I feel is worth pointing out to you. Is that potentially the entire Targaryen dynasty is founded on an adulterous cuckoo in the nest. 

Aegon and his two wives were getting on a fair bit and had never had any children, strikes me as odd. Rhaenys then has a son, but there are various rumours of her infidelity. Visenya finally has a son, but there are rumours of sorcery. 

There is a chance neither Aenys nor Maegor were his sons. But it was unimportant because Rhaenys & Visenya were as much the monarchs as he was at that time, In fact if anything it was Visenya who really ruled. 

There seems to be a good argument to suggest Aegon I was infact infertile, and that his sisters had to turn to other means to continue the Targaryen line. 

[Lion of the West]

On 2016-05-05 at 10:49 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the accounts we have of the Dance are very biased.  And that this is evident in the main series, as we know they are forming their own opinions based upon the same accounts. Ser Cristen Cole is mentioned in what mostly seems respected and highly regarded memory. But when you read TP&TQ and TWOIAF with the objective eye of an outsider, who knows and understands about bias. He was a bit of a scumbag. I agree with Lord Varys about what was most likely the nature of his relationship with Rhaenyra. He seems to have been driven by ego, homophobia, jealousy and  misogyny. Which when we take into account the culture of Westeros is totally understandable and to be expected. 

It is clear to the reader that history has been manipulated to support the cutting of women from the Targaryen line of succession. It seems obvious that the Valyrians had a more equal society, where women of the right rank at least. Held power, and this makes perfect sense when you take the fact that they were frequently dragon riders. A woman on a dragon is as powerful as a man on a dragon. 

Visenya & Rhaenys were Queens, and basically Visenya did most of the ruling. Allysanne was Roth at her husband for being sexist and left him twice, Viserys thought giving the throne to Rhaenyra totally acceptable. And several Targaryen Princesses behaved with far more self assertion, and agency that Andal culture allows for. But with the loss of the Dragons, the dominant Andal culture basically scapegoated the fact Rhaenyra was a woman as a reason for the Dance. Using the tragedy of the sheer scale of the civil war & the loss of the additional Power Dragons gave women to quash these notions of equality that these Valyrians had. One has to wonder had she (Rhaenyra) been a man, and the only child of Visery's first marriage, and the Hightowers still made the power grab which they did after Visery's death. How differently the war would be presented and how, lets call the male version of her Rhaenyar shall we, would be remembered in the annals of Westeros? 

Cristen -the King maker- Cole was but a spurned lover, jealous, his ego wounded, and bitter at having been set aside for the crown. So he sought to rob her of it. 

The idea that Valyrian women would have agency and Andal women would not is incorrect. I can throw plenty of Andal women who has agency, apparently more than their culture allows; Brienne Tarth, Jeyne Arryn (during the Dance), Argella Durrendon (during the Conquest), Sharra Arryn, Joanna Lannister (during the Dance), Cersei Lannister, Olenna Tyrell, Ellyn Tarbeck, Sabith Vypren (during the Dance), Alicent Hightower (no matter if you like her or not, she showed plenty of agency), Barbrey Bracken (not very nice but certainly not without agency) and those are just the ones that I can come up from the top of my head right now, no doubt forgetting many minor characters. Thus I dare challenge you that Andal women would somehow not have agency of their own or not be allowed to have that.

To that I would add that Targaryen women are a bad stock to judge Valyrians given that even Aegon's sisters had centuries in time between themselves and Old Valyria and the Targaryens were also willingly Andalizing themselves.

[Lord Varys]

@Paxter Redwyne

You don't seem to understand what 'having a claim' means. It doesn't mean you will inherit, it means you can technically inherit under such and such circumstances (and those circumstances are never entirely clear in a world like Westeros where inheritance and succession are deliberately vague).

It is not that bastards suddenly get claims when their trueborn kin dies - they always have claims but usually they can only make use of those claims (which are considered to be weaker than those of their legitimate kin) under special circumstances - like when their is an especially weak king/trueborn heir or the trueborn line is extinguished.

Force may or may not play a role in all of that - in Ronard Storm's case it apparently did, but his usurpation is still based on a legal claim, him being an illegitimate son of the previous king, it is not based entirely on force (as would be an usurpation done by some royal official who had no blood relations to King Morden at all).

The point of Rhaenyra's sons was apparently never a real issue in her succession. Her claim to the Iron Throne was sound and could not be denied. The Greens used the rumors about the paternity of her sons to justify their actions but that wasn't their motivation at all. And we cannot really assume that Jacaerys Velaryon would have faced a rebellion of his own by the time his mother died in a scenario in which Rhaenyra peacefully rose to the Iron Throne. But from what we know I actually doubt that considering the success the boy had as a fifteen-year-old as diplomat, politician, and leader. He must have had charisma considering that every castle he visited with his not-so-big-dragon fell in line and subsequently declared for Rhaenyra.

The case of Cersei's children is pretty tricky. If Robert had been okay with Cersei's children not being his seed or if he had shrugged it off and accepted it after the fact then Stannis would always been a traitor. Sure, he would have later painted himself as the heroic guy who put down those incestuous bastard abominations but he would have still posthumously have betrayed the trust of his brother, King Robert.

Again, I'm in agreement that Corlys wanted his own line to continue the rule of Driftmark. And after Luke died (who had previously been the heir to Driftmark) Jace and Corlys convinced Rhaenyra to legitimize Addam and Alyn as Laenor's sons - but only after Addam had claimed Seasmoke. But everybody got something out of that deal. The key point is that Addam and Alyn were legitimized as Laenor's sons. That way Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor looked more like true Velaryons because if Laenor actually did father any bastards he could also have fathered legitimate children on Rhaenyra. Addam was rewarded and included as a Velaryon into the extended Targaryen family, and Corlys Velaryon could make two of his bastards include into his family, too. Who the hell the heir of Driftmark was at that time isn't clear, though. While Jace still lived Joffrey Velaryon could have been considered the heir to Driftmark and he could even have been betrothed to Laena's daughter Rhaena who was originally betrothed to Luke. After Jace died Addam most likely was named/considered to be the heir to Driftmark because Joffrey had then become Rhaenyra's direct heir.

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Wasn't there some talk about results that those Beaufort bastards of John of Gaunt weren't actually his children? If that's the case then Henry Tudor effectively had no legal claim to the throne. That doesn't change all that much considering that he could be retroactively seen as ruling by the right of his wife, and Henry VIII was then a direct descendant of Edward III through the Yorkist line. I don't know whether Elizabeth of York had a better legal claim than the descendants of George of Clarence, Edward IV's younger brother, but as things stand today daughters come after uncles/cousins, and back when Edward IV died George's children weren't exactly in an ideal position to inherit anyway, due to the fact that their father had been executed as a traitor.

[Oh, and great that you are no monarchist. The idea that such people still exist is strange to me, and I must say coming from a non-monarchy and having spend some time in the UK you feel very strange when you stumble on the trappings and remnants of monarchy all the time - everything is 'royal', and finding shelves full of books dedicated to the Queen or the royal family is pretty irritating from an outsider's perspective.]

But there is also talk about a lot of adultery going on during the Victorian age with Victoria introducing that whole hemophilia thing into European royalty that wasn't there before.

The chances are indeed very high that Aegon the Conqueror was infertile and both Aenys and Maegor were not, in fact, his biological sons. We know that Visenya was thought to be 'perhaps barren' by the time of Rhaenys' death, suggesting she was never pregnant before giving birth to Maegor, and we know that neither she nor Rhaenys produced a living child while being Aegon's wives for at least nine years (they were already married before the Conquest, and Prince Aenys was only born in 7 AC) In addition, we know they were in their early/mid-twenties at the time of the Conquest, suggesting that they might have married (nearly) a decade or so before the Conquest, possibly making this a childless marriage for nearly two decades.

There are very obvious hints that people in Westeros thought Aegon Targaryen was either sterile or both his sister-wives were barren by the time of the Conquest. Argilac the Arrogant offers him Argella as a wife, most likely assuming Aegon will accept because he wants to father an heir on a fertile wife. Later on, Queen Sharra Arryn offers herself in marriage to Aegon if he, in turn, names her son Ronnel Arryn his heir. This could be a hint that Sharra Arryn thought that Aegon had problems fathering and heir, offering an elegant solution around that problem (and this is actually proof that the concept of anointing an adopted son or stepson as your heir isn't unknown in Westeros).

Gyldayn and Yandel repeat the rumors that Aenys might have been the son of some singer, mummer, or mime, but he is not so forthcoming in Maegor's case (there were apparently no such rumors in circulation). What he does is just telling us that Aegon kept his own counsel after Rhaenys' death when Aenys was very sick and many lords and knights were offering their own maiden daughters as new brides to the king. And then suddenly Visenya announces she is pregnant and will deliver a boy. Visenya was already around forty when Maegor was born, not exactly an age in which it is still easy to get pregnant, and we know she was a reputed sorceress which makes her claim that her child will be a boy very interesting. 

Gyldayn painted Aenys and Maegor as the two sides/aspects of the Conqueror (with Aenys essentially being the good half and Maegor the evil half of Kirk in that Star Trek episode with the transporter malfunction) but if you look more closely then a better characterization would actually be Aenys and Maegor being dialed up versions of their respective mothers

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't seem to understand what 'having a claim' means. It doesn't mean you will inherit, it means you can technically inherit under such and such circumstances (and those circumstances are never entirely clear in a world like Westeros where inheritance and succession are deliberately vague).

I know what "having a calim means" I tried to point that bastard never inherit lands unless they used force or they are last members of dynasty. By law Aegon Younger should be Rhaenyra's heir, but she would never acknowledge her "velaryon" boys as bastards, so no crown for mr. Dragonbane unless all "velaryons" die.

It's quite ridiculous that it actually happened in books. He tend to always kill members of great houses what lack their dynastic features. He killed Breakspear, Valarr, Daeron the Drunken and Robb. I guess this mean that brown haired Robert Arryn will die. heh

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And we cannot really assume that Jacaerys Velaryon would have faced a rebellion of his own by the time his mother died in a scenario in which Rhaenyra peacefully rose to the Iron Throne. But from what we know I actually doubt that considering the success the boy had as a fifteen-year-old as diplomat, politician, and leader. He must have had charisma considering that every castle he visited with his not-so-big-dragon fell in line and subsequently declared for Rhaenyra.

Yeah, Jacaerys had everything what rhanyra lacked. He was brave and charismatic and willing to compromise. But people rebelled even against Daeron the Good so who knows.