The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

[Bernie Mac]

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Of course he loved her, and perhaps he would have married her, anyway, but here you have his own account of how it happened:

"she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of... of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she... she comforted me, Mother.”
Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.”
He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do.

And the opinion of others on the matter:

He also points out that wedding her, without her father's permission no less, could cost Jeyne and her family everything. It was not honour, it was love. The honourable thing to do, what his own father would do, is honour the agreement he had already made, the agreement that had already cost many Frey men their lives.

He married out of love and lust, honour was a convenient excuse. Look at Jon, who is able to put aside his feelings to fulfil his honour to the Night's Watch. It is one of the key differences between the two, both fall for women they should not but Robb chooses his own feelings above his honour and duty while Jon puts his honour and duty first. 

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He also points out that wedding her, without her father's permission no less, could cost Jeyne and her family everything. It was not honour, it was love. The honourable thing to do, what his own father would do, is honour the agreement he had already made, the agreement that had already cost many Frey men their lives.

He married out of love and lust, honour was a convenient excuse. Look at Jon, who is able to put aside his feelings to fulfil his honour to the Night's Watch. It is one of the key differences between the two, both fall for women they should not but Robb chooses his own feelings above his honour and duty while Jon puts his honour and duty first. 

I think you're somewhat missing what those quotes mean. What we get is Robb breaching the social norms (quite understandably, learning that his little brothers were murdered) and deflowering Jeyne, and even the Lannisters(!) see that marriage was a necessary course of action if her honour was to be reinstated, as well as his in this particular matter.  If Robb married Jeyne without having sex with her first, then it would be solely for love  and not duty - but we don't get to see this scenario, so we don't know if Robb would have chosen love over honour or the other way round. I am inclined to think that he would have left with a broken heart, rather than marrying her solely for wuvv like elsewhere, but, well, roads not taken.

Also, Jon's situation is not a valid comparison - the wildlings laugh at the idea that you should marry the girl you want to bed and they don't hate on bastards, so the pressure of the social norm and codes of honour is nonexistent here.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I think you're somewhat missing what those quotes mean.

I'm not. Robb repeatedly states that he married out of love. Cat watches how the only thing that makes Robb happy is his new wife. 

This was not about honour, he was likely clinically depressed at the time with the deaths of his brothers, the destruction of Winterfell and the consequences of the Battle of the Blackwater. The only thing in the world that he had that made him feel good about himself at that point was Jeyne (whether he was under the influence or not) and he grabbed onto it not caring about the deal he had with the Freys and what losing them would mean. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Also, Jon's situation is not a valid comparison 

Sure it is. Not being an identical comparison does not mean it is not valid. I don't know why so many use that as an argument to ideas they don't like. 

Jon and Robb are brothers, both had the same education and both had a duty to a greater cause and both fell in love. Robb chose the girl over his duty and he and his people suffered tremendously for it, Jon chose his duty over the girl and may have helped save the whole realm. 

[Melifeather]

@Ygrain @Bernie Mac @Ser Insight Please take your discussion to an appropriate thread. This one is about Tywin and how I believe his actions led to Lyanna's death. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not. Robb repeatedly states that he married out of love. Cat watches how the only thing that makes Robb happy is his new wife. 

This was not about honour, he was likely clinically depressed at the time with the deaths of his brothers, the destruction of Winterfell and the consequences of the Battle of the Blackwater. The only thing in the world that he had that made him feel good about himself at that point was Jeyne (whether he was under the influence or not) and he grabbed onto it not caring about the deal he had with the Freys and what losing them would mean. 

Sorry but you need to go back and re-read the quotes:

Cat: “And you wed her the next day.”
Robb: “It was the only honorable thing to do.

Tywin: "sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor"

Kevan: "“He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure it is. Not being an identical comparison does not mean it is not valid. I don't know why so many use that as an argument to ideas they don't like..

Because you can hardly draw a valid comparison when the circumstances are different.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon and Robb are brothers, both had the same education and both had a duty to a greater cause and both fell in love. Robb chose the girl over his duty and he and his people suffered tremendously for it, Jon chose his duty over the girl and may have helped save the whole realm. 

One was, as you pointed out yourself, clinically depressed and under the pressure of social norms, the other was not. Jeyne would have been negatively affected by being deflowered and possibly impregnated, Ygritte wouldn't. Therefore, Robb had an obligation towards Jeyne which didn't exist for Ygritte. Love certainly made Robb consider this obligation more important than it really was in the grand scheme of things, but obligation it was, so he didn't have the freedom to act solely on his feelings.

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This one is about Tywin and how I believe his actions led to Lyanna's death. 

Why did Rhaegar need to leave Jaime behind as a crutch for Aerys?  Was it really an agreement between Tywin and Rhaegar to keep Jaime out of harm's way?  A means for Tywin to lull Aerys into a false sense of security?  When Rhaegar puts his hand on Jaime's shoulder as tells him that changes will be made on his return; do you suppose this included an agreement to remove Jaime from the KG?    

[The Chequered Raven]

On 15.5.2016 at 5:00 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What?

Support this

Ned asked Cersei why she hates Robert this much.
She answers she was in love first, but in their wedding night Rob was drunk and said Lyanna to her.

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry but you need to go back and re-read the quotes:

Cat: “And you wed her the next day.”
Robb: “It was the only honorable thing to do.

Tywin: "sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor"

Kevan: "“He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”

Because you can hardly draw a valid comparison when the circumstances are different.

One was, as you pointed out yourself, clinically depressed and under the pressure of social norms, the other was not. Jeyne would have been negatively affected by being deflowered and possibly impregnated, Ygritte wouldn't. Therefore, Robb had an obligation towards Jeyne which didn't exist for Ygritte. Love certainly made Robb consider this obligation more important than it really was in the grand scheme of things, but obligation it was, so he didn't have the freedom to act solely on his feelings.

 

A complaint has been made and any further comments that are off topic will be flagged for removal. I repeat - this thread's OP is about Tywin's actions prior and during the Rebellion that led to Lyanna's death. It is not a thread to discuss the merits of other parent theories nor why Robb married Jeyne.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Why did Rhaegar need to leave Jaime behind as a crutch for Aerys?  Was it really an agreement between Tywin and Rhaegar to keep Jaime out of harm's way?  A means for Tywin to lull Aerys into a false sense of security?  When Rhaegar puts his hand on Jaime's shoulder as tells him that changes will be made on his return; do you suppose this included an agreement to remove Jaime from the KG?    

 

Rhaegar was deceived. IMO he thought Tywin was on his side. Why else would he instruct Aeyrs to send Tywin a raven prior to the Sack? I think a lot can be learned by reviewing Renly and Stannis's parley where Renly offers Stannis a peach. IMO this echoes Rhaegar's promise that is implied when he tells Jaime things will be different when he returns, because I suspect Rhaegar was going to the Trident to parley. 

[Bernie Mac]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Rhaegar was deceived. IMO he thought Tywin was on his side. Why else would he instruct Aeyrs to send Tywin a raven prior to the Sack?

They Targs were on the ropes, they needed help to secure a victory and they could not risk Tywin joining the war for the other side, something that would doom the Targs. 

Convincing his father to make peace with the Lannisters is the logical solution to their problems. 

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I think a lot can be learned by reviewing Renly and Stannis's parley where Renly offers Stannis a peach. IMO this echoes Rhaegar's promise that is implied when he tells Jaime things will be different when he returns, because I suspect Rhaegar was going to the Trident to parley. 

Why does Ned make no mention of this? Why does Jaime think he has gone off for battle? Why does Barristan not mention this?

It is a pretty dumb move to go somewhere for peace negotiations and not tell the other side or even one of his main commander's in his own host. 

And I don't really see what the peach has to do with this?

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They Targs were on the ropes, they needed help to secure a victory and they could not risk Tywin joining the war for the other side, something that would doom the Targs. 

Convincing his father to make peace with the Lannisters is the logical solution to their problems. 

Why does Ned make no mention of this? Why does Jaime think he has gone off for battle? Why does Barristan not mention this?

It is a pretty dumb move to go somewhere for peace negotiations and not tell the other side or even one of his main commander's in his own host. 

And I don't really see what the peach has to do with this?

You are probably not familiar with my mirrored inversion theory? In a nutshell I theorize that the War of the Five Kings is a repeat of the Rebellion. Actually, all of the characters are reliving past events. I will be updating my OP, hopefully by the weekend with the parallels that I am seeing, but in a nutshell I think each of the four kings: Renly, Robb, Stannis, and Balon are repeating the Houses from the northern alliance during the Rebellion: Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon, and Hoster Tully. Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King during both wars, and Stannis was at Storms End for both wars. The ghost of Renly at the Blackwater seems very reminiscent of Rhaegar at the Trident, and I have a suspicion that Rhaegar was actually killed before he even reached the Trident, and that only his armor was seen at the Trident just like Renly's armor was seen at the Blackwater. I'm thinking there was a parley similar to when Renly and Stannis met the day before battle. The peach that Renly gives Stannis is symbolic of the promise a Rhaegar reign might have been. I promise I will explain more later when I get a chance to fully write it up.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You are probably not familiar with my mirrored inversion theory? In a nutshell I theorize that the War of the Five Kings is a repeat of the Rebellion.

The Rebellion was two factions, this is five factions and something of a sprawling mess. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Actually, all of the characters are reliving past events. I will be updating my OP, hopefully by the weekend with the parallels that I am seeing, but in a nutshell I think each of the four kings: Renly, Robb, Stannis, and Balon are repeating the Houses from the northern alliance during the Rebellion: Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon, and Hoster Tully.

Which characters align with who? Steffon died a few years before the rebellion started. Rickard's death may have helped start the rebellion but he also took no part. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King during both wars,

There were four hands during Robert's Rebellion. Tywin was not one of them. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

and Stannis was at Storms End for both wars.

Has Stannis even set foot in Storm's End in this rebellion?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The ghost of Renly at the Blackwater seems very reminiscent of Rhaegar at the Trident,

How so? Renly's ghost inspired much of Stannis' army to switch sides. What did Rhaegar do that was reminiscent of that?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

and I have a suspicion that Rhaegar was actually killed before he even reached the Trident, and that only his armor was seen at the Trident just like Renly's armor was seen at the Blackwater.

Anything supporting this?

GRRM: "Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested."

How could Robert, the man who faced him in single combat, be fooled? 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I'm thinking there was a parley similar to when Renly and Stannis met the day before battle. The peach that Renly gives Stannis is symbolic of the promise a Rhaegar reign might have been.

I don't think so, here is what the author says about it. 

GRRM: "The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn't possible."

Renly was a child when Rhaegar died, would not have known him and certainly has no regrets that his brother became King and he one of the most important people in the kingdom. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I promise I will explain more later when I get a chance to fully write it up.

I hope so as a lot of your connections are pretty vague and don't really seem to be that connected. 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Rebellion was two factions, this is five factions and something of a sprawling mess. 

Which characters align with who? Steffon died a few years before the rebellion started. Rickard's death may have helped start the rebellion but he also took no part. 

There were four hands during Robert's Rebellion. Tywin was not one of them. 

Has Stannis even set foot in Storm's End in this rebellion?

How so? Renly's ghost inspired much of Stannis' army to switch sides. What did Rhaegar do that was reminiscent of that?

Anything supporting this?

GRRM: "Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested."

How could Robert, the man who faced him in single combat, be fooled? 

I don't think so, here is what the author says about it. 

GRRM: "The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn't possible."

Renly was a child when Rhaegar died, would not have known him and certainly has no regrets that his brother became King and he one of the most important people in the kingdom. 

I hope so as a lot of your connections are pretty vague and don't really seem to be that connected. 

I see I've made some mistakes, so I thank you for your post, but the comment about Tywin was not one of them. Tywin was Aerys Hand for many years and left the position shortly before the Rebellion. In the more current story Tywin was one of Joffrey's Hands.

 I will correct the inconsistencies when I write up my full analysis and I'll tag you when it's done. 

[Bernie Mac]

54 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I see I've made some mistakes, so I thank you for your post, but the comment about Tywin was not one of them. Tywin was Aerys Hand for many years and left the position shortly before the Rebellion.

You claimed he was Hand during both wars, he was not. He had not been the Hand for around a year before the war started. Had he been Hand I don't think there ever would have been a war. 

54 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the more current story Tywin was one of Joffrey's Hands.

Yes. Never disagreed with that. 

 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

You claimed he was Hand during both wars, he was not. He had not been the Hand for around a year before the war started. Had he been Hand I don't think there ever would have been a war. 

Yes. Never disagreed with that. 

 

You're splitting hairs when I haven't even had a chance to write up the essay! 

Some of my thoughts about Tywin are in the original OP on this thread, but I will tweak it quite a bit, when I get the chance.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

GRRM: "Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested."

How could Robert, the man who faced him in single combat, be fooled? 

Also this: "Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens." (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997)  

If he was murdered somewhere along the way, then he is not "fallen", and everyone involved with cremating the impostor's body would have had to be fooled, as well.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also this: "Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens." (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997)  

If he was murdered somewhere along the way, then he is not "fallen", and everyone involved with cremating the impostor's body would have had to be fooled, as well.

Who was left to do this? With Aerys also dead, who would be around to do a traditional Targaryen cremation? The statement that he was cremated tells us nothing.

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You're splitting hairs when I haven't even had a chance to write up the essay! 

I'm sorry, but I'm not. You claimed that Tywin was the Hand during both wars. He was not. He was only Hand in the War of the Five Kings, not in Robert's Rebellion. Jon Arryn was made Hand immediately after Robert's Rebellion and was Hand a  year before the War of the Five Kings but to say he was Hand in both wars is factually incorrect

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Who was left to do this? With Aerys also dead, who would be around to do a traditional Targaryen cremation? The statement that he was cremated tells us nothing.

I actually agree with this. But we have other evidence that he did fight at the Trident. 

As for who cremated him? There was thousand's of loyalist survivors and Robert was injured. His body may have been gathered in the aftermath and cremated on the way or even back at Kings Landing or some of the royalist prisoners or even Arryn and some of the other more honourable rebels may have cremated him while Robert was incapacitated. 

There are many possible answers but I imagine none will be given as it is simply not that important. 

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, but I'm not. You claimed that Tywin was the Hand during both wars. He was not. He was only Hand in the War of the Five Kings, not in Robert's Rebellion. Jon Arryn was made Hand immediately after Robert's Rebellion and was Hand a  year before the War of the Five Kings but to say he was Hand in both wars is factually incorrect

I actually agree with this. But we have other evidence that he did fight at the Trident. 

As for who cremated him? There was thousand's of loyalist survivors and Robert was injured. His body may have been gathered in the aftermath and cremated on the way or even back at Kings Landing or some of the royalist prisoners or even Arryn and some of the other more honourable rebels may have cremated him while Robert was incapacitated. 

There are many possible answers but I imagine none will be given as it is simply not that important. 

Tywin was Hand for Aerys many years prior to when the Rebellion "officially" began, but IMO he was the primary cause for it breaking out. Make no mistake - his were the unseen "hands" orchestrating behind the scene pulling the strings. He was also Joffrey's Hand after Robert died, and remained in the position into the beginning of Tommen's reign, until he's murdered by Tyrion. "When" he was Hand and whether or not there were others during this same time period isn't all that important for the purpose of what I'll be writing about. I'll be discussing parallels and mirrored inversions and how specific characters are mirroring the past.

Patience!

As for Rhaegar's cremation...you're filling in the blanks with your preferred story. One statement from GRRM does not an explanation make.

[Bernie Mac]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tywin was Hand for Aerys many years prior to when the Rebellion "officially" began, but IMO he was the primary cause for it breaking out.

No, the primary cause for the war was the Mad King demanding that Jon Arryn execute his two wards Robert and Ned, and him refusing and going to war. 

Tywin had no control over this and I have no idea how he could have influened an insane man like Aerys to do such a thing considering they had likely not even seen each other in a year or more. 

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

 "When" he was Hand and whether or not there were others during this same time period isn't all that important for the purpose of what I'll be writing about.

That is cool but I was not disagreeing with what you are going to write, but what you actually had written. Tywin was not the Hand in both wars.