The "Truth" About Dany

[Chib]

In short, there are 3 possible understandings of this:

1) George R. R. Martin was not consistent with his writing about Dany and her childhood. And she is still the daughter of the mad king.

2) George R. R. Martin tried to hint that there was some hole in Dany's memories of her childhood but she's still the daughter of the mad king. Maybe the truth about her childhood hold some important twist.

3) George R. R. Martin did hint that Dany is not the one whom people (and Dany herself) think she is. However from the latest (reliable) leak of the tivi shows, Jon is the only child of Lyanna. She is definitively not Lyana's child (and I doubt that the show would make her to be the one she is not in the book). So Dany might be someone else and her entire life has been built on a lie. 

I think (1) or (2) were more likely what actually happened. 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see that either. The Long Night will be an apocalypse, like the first one. And I believe a new Golden Age will come of it. With a Warden for all realms and mankind: the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light.

I have no doubt you are 100% correct. I think you and I really are on the exact same page. The long night will be an apocalypse like the first one and it will bring about a new golden age with a warden for all realms of makind. Yes. Yes. 1000 times yes.

 

Our only area of contention might be.....where does asoiaf leave us off. I would guess it leaves us off with the seeds for that new golden age but now the new golden age itself. After all, it doesn't leave us in mid spring, but rather with a dream of spring.

 

Ideologically, we are in totally synch. I just think that GRRM will leave the stage set and not rebuild the world for us.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

19 hours ago, Chib said:

In short, there are 3 possible understandings of this:

1) George R. R. Martin was not consistent with his writing about Dany and her childhood. And she is still the daughter of the mad king.

2) George R. R. Martin tried to hint that there was some hole in Dany's memories of her childhood but she's still the daughter of the mad king. Maybe the truth about her childhood hold some important twist.

3) George R. R. Martin did hint that Dany is not the one whom people (and Dany herself) think she is. However from the latest (reliable) leak of the tivi shows, Jon is the only child of Lyanna. She is definitively not Lyana's child (and I doubt that the show would make her to be the one she is not in the book). So Dany might be someone else and her entire life has been built on a lie. 

I think (1) or (2) were more likely what actually happened. 

Not that the shows will be the same as the books, even on big points... But what are you talking about in 3? What implies Jon is Lyanna's only kid?

Honestly curious...

[Dorian Martell]

On 5/15/2016 at 5:04 PM, wordpuncher said:

First post, please pardon all redundancy, stupidity and ignorance. 

I have been trying to get to the bottom of Dany's background. I believe Quaithe has something specific in mind when she tells Dany that there is "truth" to find in Asshai. I also believe that "truth" has something to do with Dany's background. Quaithe keeps insisting that Dany needs to remember who she is. Dany has forgotten something that she perhaps once knew, and maybe she's not who she thinks she is. I don't have any specific theory about who Dany may be, but in the hopes of getting closer to an answer, I've narrowed down a few aspects of Dany's story that remain unresolved. I'm hoping to see if anyone has any thoughts that might shed some light on Dany's background...

1. WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW OF DANY'S BIRTH?

We are told that Dany was born "nine moons" after Visyers and Rhaella arrived on Dragonstone, and that her mother died in childbirth. But how do we know this? We know BECAUSE DANY TOLD US (GOT, Dany I). Now, she most likely received this information from Viserys. Viserys is her greatest source of background regarding Westerosi/family events, but even Viserys is an unreliable narrator. For example, he tells her about Rhaegar dying on the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, but Viserys was not present for either of these events. Was he even present for Dany's birth? Do we really know that Rhaella died in childbirth on Dragonstone? More important, was Viserys even with Rhaella on Dragonstone? He tells Dany his memories of leaving King's Landing on a sailboat at night. But Jamie specifically recalls the last time he saw Rhaella alive, leaving King's Landing in the morning. If Viserys and Rhaella did not sail at the same time, did they sail to the same place?

 2. THE LEMON TREE IMPOSSIBILITY

Obviously, GRRM has done everything he can to make it clear that a lemon tree growing in Braavos would at the very least be a strange (if not impossible) occurrence. Some readers believe this is explained by a potted tree being moved inside during the winter and back out during nicer Braavosi weather (not sure if that kind of weather even exists in Braavos). That would be reasonable solution, except that it doesn't come FROM THE TEXT. While Martin is repeatedly pointing out the problem with growing lemon trees in Braavos, he has not once slipped us a Braavosi botanist explaining how one keeps tropical trees in Braavosi courtyards (unless I'm missing something). As I refuse to accept a solution that is not supported by the text, I am bound to believe that Dany is mistaken about The House with the Red Door. It is not in Braavos. Her descriptions seem to lead to a reasonable conclusion that HWTRD is in Dorne. But that only raises a host of other questions. The most obvious is that if Dany were really growing up in the watergardens or somewhere in Dorne with Willem Darry, who signed a pact with the Martells, then why would the Martells just let the children wander free after Darry died? 

3. WILLEM DARRY'S HANDS

On at least two specific occasions, GRRM draws our attention to the fact that Dany believes Willem Darry has smooth hands. Would a master at arms have smooth hands? It's a fair question, but the text only gives us Darry's job description to go on. Nonetheless, given that Martin is drawing our attention to this detail (once during Dany's vision at the House of the Undying), I have to believe it's important for some reason. The most likely reason is relating to Willem Darry's identity. Is this the real Willem Darry? Preston Jacobs, in his R+L = D theory suggests that this is not the same Willem Darry who was the Targs Master at Arms and sailed with Rhaella to Dragstone. I find this difficult to make sense of. What advantage would one have in pretending to be Ser Willem Darry? If someone were able to steal Dany and Viserys from a nursery with four servants and a wet nurse, what utility would there be in passing themselves off as Darry? Also, Darry apparently died of a wasting sickness. Two other victims of wasting sickness, Corenna Swann and Jeyne Beesbury, were also from the Riverlands, indicating that Dany's Darry may have been the real Darry.

4. POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE PARENTAGE FOR DANY 

Of course, R+L=D is sitting there as a lightning rod for scorn. But at this point, the biggest argument against it is that people tend to be more convinced by R+L=J. Until one is confirmed, I won't rule out the other. I don't think that R+L=D is impossible, but it does have some major issues. The biggest for me is how do we get Willem Darry (who supposedly sailed for Dragonstone after the Trident) together with this baby born in Dorne? Maybe Darry never went to Dragonstone. Maybe he died there. Maybe he took Viserys to Dorne and eventually paired him up with Dany. But this creates more logistical problems. How do we eventually get to a scenario in which Darry (or a fake Darry) is signing a marriage pact with the Martells witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos? And, again, how do we wind up with the Martells failing to keep track of the valuable Targaryen children? And why would someone pretend to be Willem Darry? 

I've seen A+A=D, but I think it's a stretch that the Mad King raped Ashara Dayne at the Harrenhal Tourney. GRRM simply hasn't laid the groundwork for it. He laid the groundwork for B+A=J or B+A=Some Other Bastard and for A+J=T, but not for Aenys raping Ashara, unless someone can point me to something I've forgotten beyond the fact that both of them were in the same place at the same time. More important, that theory barely changes anything about Dany. She's still a Targaryen and a descendent of the Mad King in that scenario. It's replacing one mother she never knew with another and it does nothing to change her right to the throne as she'd have to claim it by conquest either way.

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if anyone has any thoughts on any of this. I sense that GRRM Martin is trying to point us toward something with Dany's background, but I can't get any closer to it than this bundle of questions.
 

I'll jump into this one late.

1: All we know of her birth is what she tells us. That does not matter at all, as in the end of the books, she hatches dragons and shows once and for all she is the blood of the dragon, the last dragon and the heir to the targ dynasty.  We do know she died on dragonstone. If she didn't, where is she? As the Queen, she would make a wonderful hostage or someone to execute publically.  Sending the Queen and the Heir on separate ships seems quite reasonable in a time of war.  The Heir and the queen, pregnant with another heir need to get to safety.

2: There is nothing impossible about growing Lemons in Braavos. Difficult yes, but impossible, not in the slightest. We have a prime example of growing fresh fruit and vegetables in a place further north in a colder climate in the dead of winter, The glass gardens in Winterfell. Dow we see lemon orchards in Bravos? No.  Could there be a small greenhouse in the yard of a  of someone  under the special protection of the Sealord of Bravos? Far more plausible than Dany being raised in Dorne and then none of the Dornish characters we meet having any idea that she lived there during her formative years and her BROTHER, the heir of the 7 kingdoms having no idea she wasn't around from 6 until he was 12 and then accepting her as a sister all of a sudden and traveling all over Essos with her. 
TL;DR: Oberyn brought a potted lemon tree to Bravos as a symbol of support from Dorne and it was planted at Dany's house, possibly in a greenhouse

3: Darry's hands, while living a posh lifestyle in a house with servants could slowly become smooth and soft as he no longer keeps up with weaponry and instead spends time with two children

4: Any alternate theories of her parentage stem from lack of new books. Unlike the parentage of Jon Snow, there haven't been any real hints of something else.  GRRM makes a big deal of Jon being a bastard. GRRM made a hude deal of Dany being a Dragon, to the point of literally hatching the first dragons after over a century 

[BalerionTheCat]

On 19/06/2016 at 11:35 PM, YOVMO said:

Our only area of contention might be.....where does asoiaf leave us off. I would guess it leaves us off with the seeds for that new golden age but now the new golden age itself. After all, it doesn't leave us in mid spring, but rather with a dream of spring.

I don't see contention there either. This new age should include the East, the far places we never went and will never go during the span of ASoIaF. As you said, it should be a dream, the full realization will come after. I don't know how GRRM will tell that, maybe with an epilogue far in the future, describing what the world had become.

[YOVMO]

8 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see contention there either. This new age should include the East, the far places we never went and will never go during the span of ASoIaF. As you said, it should be a dream, the full realization will come after. I don't know how GRRM will tell that, maybe with an epilogue far in the future, describing what the world had become.

A detailed epilogue sketching a future would would be so awesome. For now I'm just sitting here hoping to hear some WoW news and keeping fingers crossed that we will see ADoS

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

On 6/19/2016 at 0:20 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I haven't been on the forums in a while & am on my phone. I cannot figure out how to find your signature but would like to read about the non-mystery theory being debunked. Any suggestions?

I wrote to George:

Quote

 

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos' cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past? Thank you so much.

 

George responded:

Quote

Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to... well, that would be telling.

George's "perceptive" remark confirms that lemon trees in Braavos are an inconsistency. 

"Yes, it does point to... well, that would be telling" confirms that this is indeed a deliberate inconsistency, and that it does point to a mystery about Dany's origins. Furthermore, George's unwillingness to elaborate on the mystery indicates that it's something the readers aren't aware of, so it's probably not the Martell-Darry pact overseen by the Sealord.

Some willfully intransigent posters insist that "Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty" has anything to do with subtropical lemon trees. This is a stretching assumption that ignores George's assessment of the climate inconsistency ("Very perceptive"), as well as the very next line: "Nor would the Braavosi cut the pines that covered the outlying islands around their great lagoon and acted as windbreaks to shield them from storms."

Yes, it would be technically possible for a lemon tree in grow in a greenhouse in Braavos. No, it would not make any narrative sense when lemons have been associated with Dorne over and over in the text. The Sealord having a greenhouse and using it to grow lemons is pure conjecture with no support from the text or SSMs. It is not "very perceptive."

[Lord Wraith]

On 5/15/2016 at 8:04 PM, wordpuncher said:

First post, please pardon all redundancy, stupidity and ignorance. 

I have been trying to get to the bottom of Dany's background. I believe Quaithe has something specific in mind when she tells Dany that there is "truth" to find in Asshai. I also believe that "truth" has something to do with Dany's background. Quaithe keeps insisting that Dany needs to remember who she is. Dany has forgotten something that she perhaps once knew, and maybe she's not who she thinks she is. I don't have any specific theory about who Dany may be, but in the hopes of getting closer to an answer, I've narrowed down a few aspects of Dany's story that remain unresolved. I'm hoping to see if anyone has any thoughts that might shed some light on Dany's background...

1. WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW OF DANY'S BIRTH?

We are told that Dany was born "nine moons" after Visyers and Rhaella arrived on Dragonstone, and that her mother died in childbirth. But how do we know this? We know BECAUSE DANY TOLD US (GOT, Dany I). Now, she most likely received this information from Viserys. Viserys is her greatest source of background regarding Westerosi/family events, but even Viserys is an unreliable narrator. For example, he tells her about Rhaegar dying on the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, but Viserys was not present for either of these events. Was he even present for Dany's birth? Do we really know that Rhaella died in childbirth on Dragonstone? More important, was Viserys even with Rhaella on Dragonstone? He tells Dany his memories of leaving King's Landing on a sailboat at night. But Jamie specifically recalls the last time he saw Rhaella alive, leaving King's Landing in the morning. If Viserys and Rhaella did not sail at the same time, did they sail to the same place?

 2. THE LEMON TREE IMPOSSIBILITY

Obviously, GRRM has done everything he can to make it clear that a lemon tree growing in Braavos would at the very least be a strange (if not impossible) occurrence. Some readers believe this is explained by a potted tree being moved inside during the winter and back out during nicer Braavosi weather (not sure if that kind of weather even exists in Braavos). That would be reasonable solution, except that it doesn't come FROM THE TEXT. While Martin is repeatedly pointing out the problem with growing lemon trees in Braavos, he has not once slipped us a Braavosi botanist explaining how one keeps tropical trees in Braavosi courtyards (unless I'm missing something). As I refuse to accept a solution that is not supported by the text, I am bound to believe that Dany is mistaken about The House with the Red Door. It is not in Braavos. Her descriptions seem to lead to a reasonable conclusion that HWTRD is in Dorne. But that only raises a host of other questions. The most obvious is that if Dany were really growing up in the watergardens or somewhere in Dorne with Willem Darry, who signed a pact with the Martells, then why would the Martells just let the children wander free after Darry died? 

3. WILLEM DARRY'S HANDS

On at least two specific occasions, GRRM draws our attention to the fact that Dany believes Willem Darry has smooth hands. Would a master at arms have smooth hands? It's a fair question, but the text only gives us Darry's job description to go on. Nonetheless, given that Martin is drawing our attention to this detail (once during Dany's vision at the House of the Undying), I have to believe it's important for some reason. The most likely reason is relating to Willem Darry's identity. Is this the real Willem Darry? Preston Jacobs, in his R+L = D theory suggests that this is not the same Willem Darry who was the Targs Master at Arms and sailed with Rhaella to Dragstone. I find this difficult to make sense of. What advantage would one have in pretending to be Ser Willem Darry? If someone were able to steal Dany and Viserys from a nursery with four servants and a wet nurse, what utility would there be in passing themselves off as Darry? Also, Darry apparently died of a wasting sickness. Two other victims of wasting sickness, Corenna Swann and Jeyne Beesbury, were also from the Riverlands, indicating that Dany's Darry may have been the real Darry.

4. POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE PARENTAGE FOR DANY 

Of course, R+L=D is sitting there as a lightning rod for scorn. But at this point, the biggest argument against it is that people tend to be more convinced by R+L=J. Until one is confirmed, I won't rule out the other. I don't think that R+L=D is impossible, but it does have some major issues. The biggest for me is how do we get Willem Darry (who supposedly sailed for Dragonstone after the Trident) together with this baby born in Dorne? Maybe Darry never went to Dragonstone. Maybe he died there. Maybe he took Viserys to Dorne and eventually paired him up with Dany. But this creates more logistical problems. How do we eventually get to a scenario in which Darry (or a fake Darry) is signing a marriage pact with the Martells witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos? And, again, how do we wind up with the Martells failing to keep track of the valuable Targaryen children? And why would someone pretend to be Willem Darry? 

I've seen A+A=D, but I think it's a stretch that the Mad King raped Ashara Dayne at the Harrenhal Tourney. GRRM simply hasn't laid the groundwork for it. He laid the groundwork for B+A=J or B+A=Some Other Bastard and for A+J=T, but not for Aenys raping Ashara, unless someone can point me to something I've forgotten beyond the fact that both of them were in the same place at the same time. More important, that theory barely changes anything about Dany. She's still a Targaryen and a descendent of the Mad King in that scenario. It's replacing one mother she never knew with another and it does nothing to change her right to the throne as she'd have to claim it by conquest either way.

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if anyone has any thoughts on any of this. I sense that GRRM Martin is trying to point us toward something with Dany's background, but I can't get any closer to it than this bundle of questions.
 

http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

Its a long read but will give you a lot of hints that Dany may not be who she thinks she is.

[Chib]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not that the shows will be the same as the books, even on big points... But what are you talking about in 3? What implies Jon is Lyanna's only kid?

Honestly curious...

My take is that, of course show and book are not the same. But I don't think they will change the parents of some MAJOR characters. If Martin has intended for Dany to be the Mad King's daughter and D&D makes her Lyanna's daughter, it would be very wrong. I don't think D&D will do that. Of course they might cut off some characters completely, but the major parentage of the most major characters will be kept. 

And ep 10 of season 6 will reveal soon about the tower of joy soon, if by that time they only show that Jon is Lyanna's only kid, and people still keep gushing that Jon Snow is not a Targ, or that Dany is Lyanna's kid, it would be extremely funny. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

Its a long read but will give you a lot of hints that Dany may not be who she thinks she is.

This is a great summary of a great portion of the evidence behind Dany not being who she thinks she is... The Ashara bit at the end overlooks the timeline issues that the essay touches on briefly earlier in its great length... But overall does a nice job of running through the major points.

7 hours ago, Chib said:

My take is that, of course show and book are not the same. But I don't think they will change the parents of some MAJOR characters. If Martin has intended for Dany to be the Mad King's daughter and D&D makes her Lyanna's daughter, it would be very wrong. I don't think D&D will do that. Of course they might cut off some characters completely, but the major parentage of the most major characters will be kept. 

And ep 10 of season 6 will reveal soon about the tower of joy soon, if by that time they only show that Jon is Lyanna's only kid, and people still keep gushing that Jon Snow is not a Targ, or that Dany is Lyanna's kid, it would be extremely funny. 

I think you will be disappointed... But time will tell