The "Truth" About Dany

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

50 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

As far as your theory about the "crew" on Dragonstone, I simply don't think you've considered my response. Think of a place you were 15 years ago. Now tell me about something that DIDN'T happen there. If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone, then there are no stories about that happening. If you were there, maybe you're thinking, "I guess I wasn't there when that happened." 

BS.

Whenever Daenerys Targaryen is mentioned in Westeros, for some reason nobody ever responds with "Daenerys who? Never heard of her". Robert thought of sending assassins after both Dany and Viserys, only let Jon Arryn persuade him out of that. I have no idea where your "there are no stories about her birth happening" comes from, but, in all frankness, I lost interest.

[Ser Leftwich]

7 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

It's a huge stretch. We don't even know who, if anyone, was on Dragonstone. But let's say there were people there. What happened to them? And what evidence do you have of another royal birth during war time with the royal family on the run? Multiple people saw Aegon VI die. 

 

We know there was a whole garrison on Dragonstone, because that is why Darry fled, while a few loyal members of the household. 

Proposing that Rhaella, Viserys, and Darry were the only people on Dragonstone, which is, bonkers.

In fact, Stannis and all of the sailors and soldiers he took to Dragonstone were in on the Dany switch!!!! We know this must be true because Stannis hasn't said that he never did it.

(What was the old practice of changing your font for sarcasm?)

[wordpuncher]

I never indicated that no one had ever heard of Daenerys.

I simply made the point that the only account of her birth in these books comes from her. That's it. If you have other evidence, please let me know. I prefer not to rest on assumptions.

[Ebrose]

13 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

It's a huge stretch. We don't even know who, if anyone, was on Dragonstone. But let's say there were people there. What happened to them? And what evidence do you have of another royal birth during war time with the royal family on the run? Multiple people saw Aegon VI die. 

9/11 is not a reasonable comparison. That's like asking if someone remember the Doom of Valyria. But let's say you worked at the Camp David. And I said, where you there on the day that Michelle Obama gave birth. And I asked you this 15 years later. You might just answer no.

A royal birth was A BIG thing. As stated above by @Ferocious Veldt Roarer, keeping track of inheritance was extremely important in such societies. Much more than a USA president's kid, for sure (and even not being American and, obviously, not working in Camp David, I am pretty sure that no, Laura Bush (not M. Obama) didn't give birth 15 years ago).

[wordpuncher]

Just now, Ebrose said:

A royal birth was A BIG thing. As stated above by @Ferocious Veldt Roarer, keeping track of inheritance was extremely important in such societies. Much more than a USA president's kid, for sure (and even not being American and, obviously, not working in Camp David, I am pretty sure that no, Laura Bush (not M. Obama) didn't give birth 15 years ago).

People keep saying it's a BIG THING and noting how closely people track it. OK, so point me to ONE other character in the books who backs up or contradicts what Dany says about her birth. Please. Either do that or acknowledge that it doesn't exist.

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

Again, we don't know that she was "raped." We only know that Aerys, "took his pleasure." Maybe she had an ongoing affair with someone else, like Darry. That two-week window is a little off, considering that she had the baby exactly nine moons after leaving.

WUT?! The woman is screaming in pain, telling him that he is hurting her, her breasts and thighs are savaged as if by a beast - do you really think she consented to this? Especially when she and Aerys normally avoided seeing each other?

As for her having a lover before her flight to DS.... For a queen, cheating is treason. The Mad King had already suspected Rhaella. How likely does it seem to you that she dared to have an affair?

[wordpuncher]

Just now, Ygrain said:

WUT?! The woman is screaming in pain, telling him that he is hurting her, her breasts and thighs are savaged as if by a beast - do you really think she consented to this? Especially when she and Aerys normally avoided seeing each other?

As for her having a lover before her flight to DS.... For a queen, cheating is treason. The Mad King had already suspected Rhaella. How likely does it seem to you that she dared to have an affair?

No. I don't think she consented to anything. My point is not that the sex was consensual but that perhaps he did not have sex with her.

[wordpuncher]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

As for her having a lover before her flight to DS.... For a queen, cheating is treason. The Mad King had already suspected Rhaella. How likely does it seem to you that she dared to have an affair?

Before or after. I understand that it's treason, but the books make it very clear that Queens aren't 100 percent faithful, particularly when they are married to awful men.

[aryagonnakill#2]

28 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

It's a huge stretch. We don't even know who, if anyone, was on Dragonstone. But let's say there were people there. What happened to them? And what evidence do you have of another royal birth during war time with the royal family on the run? Multiple people saw Aegon VI die. 

Here's the thing: I don't think any of the evidence is "conclusive." Most of it isn't even evidence. And none of it is direct evidence. What you have a tautology that Dany was born on Dragonstone because of course she was. Look at the actual facts. You're citing Dragonstone servants that we've never heard from. We have no idea what they have to say. You can't cite that as evidence. I wish we had something conclusive. Even if it prove you were right. That would satisfy me. I could move on to something else.  But we don't have that. We basically have Dany's story and very little to verify it.

Your acting like everything that happens in world has to happen on page, and that if it didn't happen on page it didn't happen.  Stannis took Dragonstone, the garrison and servants of the castle did not disappear, obviously they were questioned and all told the same story.  Saying it didn't happen because we didn't see it is the same as suggesting that Robb never went into the Westerlands because we didn't have  POV there.  If the Servants and garrison didn't tell Stannis Rhaella gave birth they would never have known about Danaerys at all and her existence would be a secret.

[wordpuncher]

Look, everybody. In the absence of direct evidence you have be open to possibilities. I'm not saying whether things happened one way or another. I'm just asking what our evidence is. In some cases it's not as strong as we've come to believe.

[Ser Leftwich]

For that matter, Balon Greyjoy is not dead. It didn't happen on the page and there is no body. Lommy is also alive, since he was only bleeding when we last saw him!

[Ygrain]

4 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

No. I don't think she consented to anything. My point is not that the sex was consensual but that perhaps he did not have sex with her.

Ah. Guy gets horny after watching someone burn, and at night he seeks his wife whom he normally avoids. He brutalizes her, but somehow gets his satisfaction without sexual release? Not impossible but only extremely unlikely, huh?

3 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

Before or after. I understand that it's treason, but the books make it very clear that Queens aren't 100 percent faithful, particularly when they are married to awful men.

The fact that someone might have doesn't mean they did. Do you have any textual hint whatsoever that Rhaella had an affair? You don't. Therefore she, out of self-preservation, didn't. 

[wordpuncher]

And of course, if Dany was really born on Dragonstone nine months after the Trident, then Lyanna could not have died giving birth at the TOJ. 

[wordpuncher]

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah. Guy gets horny after watching someone burn, and at night he seeks his wife whom he normally avoids. He brutalizes her, but somehow gets his satisfaction without sexual release? Not impossible but only extremely unlikely, huh?

The fact that someone might have doesn't mean they did. Do you have any textual hint whatsoever that Rhaella had an affair? You don't. Therefore she, out of self-preservation, didn't. 

Everything you're saying here is based on assumption. I don't know for sure that she had an affair. I'm not saying she did. I have no evidence she did. But I also have no direct evidence that Aerys is Dany's father.

[Ygrain]

5 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

And of course, if Dany was really born on Dragonstone nine months after the TridentSack, then Lyanna could not have died giving birth at the TOJ.  been her mother.

Fixed it for you.

2 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

Everything you're saying here is based on assumption. I don't. I'm not saying she did. I have no evidence she did. But I also have no direct evidence that Aerys is Dany's father.

Everything I'm saying here is based on the text. If you're a sucker for the explicite, you're readind a wrong book.

[wordpuncher]

Just now, Ygrain said:

Fixed it for you.

Everything I'm saying here is based on the text. If you're a sucker for the explicite, you're readind a wrong book.

No it's not. It's based on your interpretation of the text.

[wordpuncher]

Anything that remains open to interpretation is not certain. That's basically my point here.

[Ebrose]

41 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

People keep saying it's a BIG THING and noting how closely people track it. OK, so point me to ONE other character in the books who backs up or contradicts what Dany says about her birth. Please. Either do that or acknowledge that it doesn't exist.

 

17 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

Anything that remains open to interpretation is not certain. That's basically my point here.

So, then, you also doubt about the birth of 99% of the characters of the books, right? Ned, Robert, Cat, Viserys, Rhaegar, and on and on and on. We were not there, so... 

And this case is particularly annoying because, unlike the ToJ which was completely isolated, on purpose, so the amount of people who can know what happened there is quite small, a lot of people in Dragonstone would know what was happening or not there! Don't you think that someone, at some point, would have said "Eeehh... no, there was no birth here that night. I don't know who this Daenerys Storm..'born' is that you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure Rhaella died of a flu, not of childbirth." or "Yes, a child was born but it was pretty sad because it died stillbirth."? Come on, the Baratheons would have done anything to find someone who raised suspicions about the legitimacy of the last (known) Targaryen! But no, no one doubts that she is who she claims.

PS: That being said, I also feel that the lemon tree issue is something. However, I do not think it is related with her birth. How many memories do you keep before your third/fourth year?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Hey wordpuncher, don't sweat the haters...

You are making sense and while I clearly don't have some way of telling you what exactly happened... I am far more inclined to believe that Dany's past is NOT the story these sheep keep saying is cannon.

It's still a mystery, but the fact that they pretend her backstory doesn't have holes in it or the fact that a secret about the birth of a pov character is crazy out there, is plain ridiculous...

Ok, on a textual note... I still think the Stormborn is relevant because the whole Targ fleet was destroyed. For Darry to escape with Viserys (and a baby or not) he would need someone to send him a ship. Which means hat there is a conspirator around who can, one day, answer some of these questions... 

While we are talking boats and Braavos...

No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling.

The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

Ok so besides that it is hard for Darry to escape across the narrow sea on kindling... 2 questions:

Do you think "across the narrow sea" means between westeros and the free cities, or just a journey on part of that body of water?

Second, who has ships with Green Sails? And if Dany grew up in Braavos, when did she go back after leaving the house with the red door? Because I can't remember that part... So add it to the list of inconsistencies in her past...

[wordpuncher]

8 minutes ago, Ebrose said:

 

So, then, you also doubt about the birth of 99% of the characters of the books, right? Ned, Robert, Cat, Viserys, Rhaegar, and on and on and on. We were not there, so... 

 

If you don't see the distinction here, I'm not sure we have anything left to discuss. I will say that there A LOT of details about the childhoods of Rhaegar and Viserys. Not so much about Dany.