Is Viserion "the nicest" of the three dragons?

[Springwatch]

On 5/22/2016 at 9:43 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Three heads of the dragon. Each represents major characters and "true" Targaryens of this series: Drogon - Jon; Viserion - Jaime; Rhaegal - Cersei. Colors of the dragons are major hints.

Of the three, I could believe in Cersei, absolutely. She loves fire, is obsessed with it (green fire - could be a hint). If Rhaegal is still single when he arrives at King's Landing, he will find a match made in heaven with Cersei, and then they can both do what they love best - burning their enemies to blistering cinders.

Viserion can hook up with Sansa, so they can both be nice together - a modern Silverwing and Alysanne, flying north to do good deeds.

[Scorpion92]

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Of the three, I could believe in Cersei, absolutely. She loves fire, is obsessed with it (green fire - could be a hint). If Rhaegal is still single when he arrives at King's Landing, he will find a match made in heaven with Cersei, and then they can both do what they love best - burning their enemies to blistering cinders.

Viserion can hook up with Sansa, so they can both be nice together - a modern Silverwing and Alysanne, flying north to do good deeds.

I do not necessarily believe that Jon, Jaime and Cersei are dragonriders, just that they are real Targaryens, "dragons", of this story. 

[Springwatch]

5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I do not necessarily believe that Jon, Jaime and Cersei are dragonriders, just that they are real Targaryens, "dragons", of this story. 

I like the idea, with the reservation that Tommen and Myrcella would also be real Targs, probably Tyrion as well - and none of them are represented by a dragon.

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I like the idea, with the reservation that Tommen and Myrcella would also be real Targs, probably Tyrion as well - and none of them are represented by a dragon.

Yeah,in a nutshell, Tommen and Myrcella are Targaryens too, as well as Joffrey who resembles his grandfather Mad King a lot. But they are going to die soon and push Cersei to madness which will culminate in the capital's burning.

Tyrion, though, is not Targaryen, he is the only true Lannister, Tywin's only true kid. "I am your son. I have always been your son".

[The Fresh PtwP]

...I think Viserion is female that's why (s)he's the tamest. (nicest DOES sound weird when referring to dragons)

My evidence, not much just being named after Viserys. Dany and Vis' conversation about her being born to early and her counter "If you were a girl, etc" add that with "His dragon will do what he could not" and you got a nice tinfoily hat see!

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 5/22/2016 at 5:43 PM, Scorpion92 said:

Three heads of the dragon. Each represents major characters and "true" Targaryens of this series: Drogon - Jon; Viserion - Jaime; Rhaegal - Cersei. Colors of the dragons are major hints.

And yes, Dany is not a Targaryen, she is a Dayne. She is Mother of Dragons, not dragon herself.

Okay, this is a lot thrown at me, however let me see if I can follow you. I assume you are saying Aerys Targaryen is Jaime and Cersei's father. I'm certainly more on board for that than Tyrion because it has slightly more actual evidence. However, you lost me with Daenerys not being a Targaryen. Can you link me to a thread in which you perhaps talk about this in more detail. 

 

Also, has anyone considered that Brown Ben Plumm could be a dragon rider? He could ride Viserion. Dany could ride Drogon, and Jon could ride Rhaegal. 

[Scorpion92]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, this is a lot thrown at me, however let me see if I can follow you. I assume you are saying Aerys Targaryen is Jaime and Cersei's father. I'm certainly more on board for that than Tyrion because it has slightly more actual evidence. However, you lost me with Daenerys not being a Targaryen. Can you link me to a thread in which you perhaps talk about this in more detail. 

 

Also, has anyone considered that Brown Ben Plumm could be a dragon rider? He could ride Viserion. Dany could ride Drogon, and Jon could ride Rhaegal. 

Well, there were several threads around internet where Dany's true heritage is discussed, and there is Barristan's mention about similarity between Ashara and Dany. Add the whole "lemongate" discussions, and I am more and more convinced that she is Dayne, not Targaryen, and was switched with Viserys' real sister who probably died at Dragonstone with Rhaella.

Now who the father is much more difficult to determine, but in my humble opinion, IF Ashara is Dany's mother, then her father HAS to be Ned Stark, making her Ned's bastard daughter (unknown to him, and it will bring full circle and parallel Dany and Jon's storylines, where each lives the life of the other: Targaryen trueborn living a life of Stark bastard, and a Stark bastard living a life of trueborn Targaryen - "ice" and "fire"). But that is all speculation, I am waiting Winds of Winter to prove this theory.

Brown Ben Plumm will die for his treachery, and Viserion will bond with Tyrion after he heals him back to health. Victarion will control Rhaegal with dragonhorn.

And IF Jon rides any dragon, it will be Drogon to prove his heritage not only to Dany, but whole Westeros. Either that, or Jon kills Drogon to prove who the "real dragon" is. I do not see any textual evidence for association or description between Jon and Rhaegal, except that the dragon carries Rhaegar's name. That is too weak of an argument for me, I am looking for more deep connections.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 21/5/2016 at 11:59 PM, Lady Lemoncakes said:

Viserion is more calmer and gentler. So I think so. Which is ironic consider he is named after Dany's cruel brother while Rhaegal, who is more aggressive, is named after her "nicer" brother.

I think there might be reasons for it to be named after Viserys (despite being possibly the 'nicest' dragon), linked to the fact he will be Tyrion's dragon.

I've always thought Viserion will be Tyrion's dragon because:

- he is about the size of a small dog;

- he's white-creamy and gold;

- he is clever enough to know his own name;

- he has a roar can send a hundred lions running and as they follow the red comet he sinks is claws into the lion's mane; 

-  Lannisters are referred to as having claws (Catelyn: "in a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws");

-  he is fond of women (if Quentyn misunderstood his interest for Pretty Meris) or misses his mother (if Quentyn was right... as Tyrion Lyanna):  "last and longest the beast stared at Pretty Meris, sniffing. The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she's not here".

- in The Winds of WInter, as the second siege of Mereen commences, Viserion and his brother are drawn to it. Viserion flies above the battle being fought beneath the city; Tyrion steps out of his tent and sees some of the second sons  gawking at the white dragon above (he doesn't see Raeghal, just Viserion).

If we assume Viserion is Tyrion's dragon, then he is possibly the nicest dragon because he's the one who needs to be able to bond more easily with people/strangers (even with people who are not Targs?).

As for Viserys, I think in theory there are 3 possible reasons why Viserion is named after Viserys and at the same time he is the 'nicest' of dragons and Tyrion's dragon:

1- Tyrion is going to seek revenge against / play a role in the Lannisters' demise (and especially Cersei) thanks to / through Viserion (who is in fact described as able to send a hundred lions running and who sinks his claws in the lion's mane = instrumental to the Lannisters' demise): that fits with Viserys being cruel / revengeful;

Quote

The cream-colored dragon sunk sharp black claws into the lion's mane and coiled its tail around her arm

Quote

The dragon came down between the Dornishmen and the door with a roar that would have sent a hundred lions running.(…) Quentyn wrenched free of Gerris's grip. "Viserion," he called. The white one is Viserion." 

2 - Tyrion is a Targaryen so a brother to Daenerys, hence he rides the dragon named after her own brother Viserys (not particularly fond of this theory unless R+L=J proves to be wrong - which I don't think it is - because 2 segret targaryens meh and it would ruin the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic imo); this theory may be wrong because Daenerys also says "The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident" while Jon, even if surely 'valiant' and maybe Raeghal's son, is not Daenery's brother, not even if R+L=J... so the brother reference might be unreliable

Quote

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will  do what he could not."

3.  Assuming Dany's wish/thought/POV results to be more than just that, either Tyrion is going to be King, because that was Viserys' goal (really unlikely, unless  there is a way to make a dwarf accepted as a king) or he is going to 'wake up the Dragon'  literally (like waking the dragons from stone... this might be linked to the Tyrion=Gargoyles connection) or just metaphorically, meaning anger/revenge as Viserys meant or ______  (any ideas?)

Quote

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion.Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not."

Quote

"Illyrio is no fool," Viserys said (…) "The magister knows that I will not forget my friends when I come into my throne."

Quote

"We will have it all back someday, sweet sister," he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. "The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King's Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back." Viserys lived for that day.

Quote

"His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon." 

Imo, the first option is the most convincing.

Anyway, no doubts that the gold reference is intentional by GRRM, but I wondered (just wondered) if the fact that Viserion is white might be intentional too … IF it is, there might be so many possibile reasons...

- I wondered if it's coincidence that Jon gets the white wirewolf (the others being black because they are for the legitimate childs and black represents legitimate claim in asoiaf) and Tyrion gets the white dragon;

- maybe he's white and gold because the color white reminds us of the Starks and Tyrion is the closest gold Lannister to the white Starks (Jon, Sansa);

- maybe he's white because the color is symbolic that he will play a big role in the fight against the white walkers;

- maybe he's white because he's the nicest of the dragons, opposite to black Drogon who is the true 'beast' amongst the three; 

- maybe it's just that GRRM wanted another random colour than black to show that that Daenerys is the only legitmate Targ (black is associated with them and with legitimate claims/ childs) and Jon and Tyrion, whatever they are, are not;

- maybe the color might imply some future conflict between Daenerys and Tyrion (black and white are opposites): Daenerys, the radical leader and legitimate Targ, will ride the more 'savage' dragon, Drogon while Tyrion, not a Tarh and pragmatic leader inclined to compromise, will bond with white Viserion.. if their perspectives come to be too much divergent, Tyrion might not stick with Daenerys (in this perspective, we have also to think that even if Tyrion hates Cersei - we don't know how his relationship with Jamie will develop at this point - at the moment there's no thought of revenge against the Starks into his head at all (he complained a couple of times about Sansa back in the days when his mind was fu** up but that was it and he misses her and he called Jon 'friend') while Viserys and Daenerys 'hate 'both Starks and Lannisters equally "..Viserys called the Usurper's dogs the lords Lannister and Stark" and it seems she agrees with him: this might be a reason for conflict if and when they acutally go to Westeros, because Daenerys might prove to be less merciful towards the Westeros aristocracy / population than he had thought; if Jon is a Targ and claims the throne, I can see Tyrion backing him instead of Daenerys.

As I said I wondered if the white might mean something because the black seems to mean Targaryen and / or rightful claim:

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black; 

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.” Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

Still, Jon will ride Raeghal, who is green and not black.. maybe because he's a bastard?

Anyway, just tihnking out loud that the white reference might be not coincidental.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

18 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, there were several threads around internet where Dany's true heritage is discussed, and there is Barristan's mention about similarity between Ashara and Dany. Add the whole "lemongate" discussions, and I am more and more convinced that she is Dayne, not Targaryen, and was switched with Viserys' real sister who probably died at Dragonstone with Rhaella.

Now who the father is much more difficult to determine, but in my humble opinion, IF Ashara is Dany's mother, then her father HAS to be Ned Stark, making her Ned's bastard daughter (unknown to him, and it will bring full circle and parallel Dany and Jon's storylines, where each lives the life of the other: Targaryen trueborn living a life of Stark bastard, and a Stark bastard living a life of trueborn Targaryen - "ice" and "fire"). But that is all speculation, I am waiting Winds of Winter to prove this theory.

Brown Ben Plumm will die for his treachery, and Viserion will bond with Tyrion after he heals him back to health. Victarion will control Rhaegal with dragonhorn.

And IF Jon rides any dragon, it will be Drogon to prove his heritage not only to Dany, but whole Westeros. Either that, or Jon kills Drogon to prove who the "real dragon" is. I do not see any textual evidence for association or description between Jon and Rhaegal, except that the dragon carries Rhaegar's name. That is too weak of an argument for me, I am looking for more deep connections.

I believe it is canon that there has never been a person that has ridden more than one dragon. Therefore, since Dany has ridden Drogon, I see no reason she would ride any other dragon than Drogon. Unless Dany dies, why would she stop riding Drogon? She is already doing it... I think Jon will ride Rhaegal simply because he is the second biggest I believe, and Jon is the only other person I am fairly certain will ride a dragon. As far as who rides Viserion.....I guess if I had a real guess, I would make it. I think Tyrion is possible. I think Victarion with the dragon horn is extremely unlikely to be honest. I don't think there is that much evidence for who will be the third dragon rider. Maybe it will be some random person, I honestly don't know. My best guess based purely on me completely just guessing is that it will be ........ Cersei Lannister, because why not?

[Springwatch]

I like colour codes a lot. GRRM is very fond of pushing the idea that all characters are 'grey', no-one is wholly good or bad. At the extremes, characters associated with black appear bad, but are actually better than they look (eg Drogon, the Watch), and characters associated with white appear virtuous/gentle but are actually worse than that, or at least more ferocious (eg Kingsguard).

Maybe this will apply to Viserion too. At least, I'm sure if Tyrion gets control of a dragon, he will use it for conquest - I think he's tired of being a humble servant to Tywin, Joff, Aegon, anyone.

[Valens]

On 24.5.2016 at 0:11 AM, Elisabetta Duò said:

I think there might be reasons for it to be named after Viserys (despite being possibly the 'nicest' dragon), linked to the fact he will be Tyrion's dragon.

I've always thought Viserion will be Tyrion's dragon because:

- he is about the size of a small dog;

- he's white-creamy and gold;

- he is clever enough to know his own name;

- he has a roar can send a hundred lions running and as they follow the red comet he sinks is claws into the lion's mane; 

-  Lannisters are referred to as having claws (Catelyn: "in a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws");

-  he is fond of women (if Quentyn misunderstood his interest for Pretty Meris) or misses his mother (if Quentyn was right... as Tyrion Lyanna):  "last and longest the beast stared at Pretty Meris, sniffing. The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she's not here".

- in The Winds of WInter, as the second siege of Mereen commences, Viserion and his brother are drawn to it. Viserion flies above the battle being fought beneath the city; Tyrion steps out of his tent and sees some of the second sons  gawking at the white dragon above (he doesn't see Raeghal, just Viserion).

If we assume Viserion is Tyrion's dragon, then he is possibly the nicest dragon because he's the one who needs to be able to bond more easily with people/strangers (even with people who are not Targs?).

As for Viserys, I think in theory there are 3 possible reasons why Viserion is named after Viserys and at the same time he is the 'nicest' of dragons and Tyrion's dragon:

1- Tyrion is going to seek revenge against / play a role in the Lannisters' demise (and especially Cersei) thanks to / through Viserion (who is in fact described as able to send a hundred lions running and who sinks his claws in the lion's mane = instrumental to the Lannisters' demise): that fits with Viserys being cruel / revengeful;

2 - Tyrion is a Targaryen so a brother to Daenerys, hence he rides the dragon named after her own brother Viserys (not particularly fond of this theory unless R+L=J proves to be wrong - which I don't think it is - because 2 segret targaryens meh and it would ruin the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic imo); this theory may be wrong because Daenerys also says "The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident" while Jon, even if surely 'valiant' and maybe Raeghal's son, is not Daenery's brother, not even if R+L=J... so the brother reference might be unreliable

3.  Assuming Dany's wish/thought/POV results to be more than just that, either Tyrion is going to be King, because that was Viserys' goal (really unlikely, unless  there is a way to make a dwarf accepted as a king) or he is going to 'wake up the Dragon'  literally (like waking the dragons from stone... this might be linked to the Tyrion=Gargoyles connection) or just metaphorically, meaning anger/revenge as Viserys meant or ______  (any ideas?)

Imo, the first option is the most convincing.

Anyway, no doubts that the gold reference is intentional by GRRM, but I wondered (just wondered) if the fact that Viserion is white might be intentional too … IF it is, there might be so many possibile reasons...

- I wondered if it's coincidence that Jon gets the white wirewolf (the others being black because they are for the legitimate childs and black represents legitimate claim in asoiaf) and Tyrion gets the white dragon;

- maybe he's white and gold because the color white reminds us of the Starks and Tyrion is the closest gold Lannister to the white Starks (Jon, Sansa);

- maybe he's white because the color is symbolic that he will play a big role in the fight against the white walkers;

- maybe he's white because he's the nicest of the dragons, opposite to black Drogon who is the true 'beast' amongst the three; 

- maybe it's just that GRRM wanted another random colour than black to show that that Daenerys is the only legitmate Targ (black is associated with them and with legitimate claims/ childs) and Jon and Tyrion, whatever they are, are not;

- maybe the color might imply some future conflict between Daenerys and Tyrion (black and white are opposites): Daenerys, the radical leader and legitimate Targ, will ride the more 'savage' dragon, Drogon while Tyrion, not a Tarh and pragmatic leader inclined to compromise, will bond with white Viserion.. if their perspectives come to be too much divergent, Tyrion might not stick with Daenerys (in this perspective, we have also to think that even if Tyrion hates Cersei - we don't know how his relationship with Jamie will develop at this point - at the moment there's no thought of revenge against the Starks into his head at all (he complained a couple of times about Sansa back in the days when his mind was fu** up but that was it and he misses her and he called Jon 'friend') while Viserys and Daenerys 'hate 'both Starks and Lannisters equally "..Viserys called the Usurper's dogs the lords Lannister and Stark" and it seems she agrees with him: this might be a reason for conflict if and when they acutally go to Westeros, because Daenerys might prove to be less merciful towards the Westeros aristocracy / population than he had thought; if Jon is a Targ and claims the throne, I can see Tyrion backing him instead of Daenerys.

As I said I wondered if the white might mean something because the black seems to mean Targaryen and / or rightful claim:

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black; 

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.” Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

Still, Jon will ride Raeghal, who is green and not black.. maybe because he's a bastard?

Anyway, just tihnking out loud that the white reference might be not coincidental.

All three dragons are the size of a small dog, IN THE BEGINNING. They all, including Viserion, grew much larger than that later on. And of the Stark direwolves, only Shaggydog is black. The others (excluding Ghost of course) are grey. Note that Robb's wolf is named GREY Wind.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 26 maggio 2016 at 11:27 PM, Valens said:

All three dragons are the size of a small dog, IN THE BEGINNING. They all, including Viserion, grew much larger than that later on. And of the Stark direwolves, only Shaggydog is black. The others (excluding Ghost of course) are grey. Note that Robb's wolf is named GREY Wind.

That's true, in the beginning they all were little. Actually I think I've read somewhere that Viserion is the smallest, but even if I'm mistaken, there are so many elements linking him with Tyrion, from the colour to the roar, etc. that I don't think it's coincidence, I think he will be Tyrion's dragon.

You are right also about the wolves, but this doesn't make me wrong, with that meaning that it's still true that Jon got the white direwolf and tyrion (I think) will get the white dragon. I'm not saying this will necessarily mean something, I just wondered if it could mean something.

[Springwatch]

On 5/24/2016 at 1:57 AM, The Fresh PtwP said:

...I think Viserion is female that's why (s)he's the tamest. (nicest DOES sound weird when referring to dragons)

My evidence, not much just being named after Viserys. Dany and Vis' conversation about her being born to early and her counter "If you were a girl, etc" add that with "His dragon will do what he could not" and you got a nice tinfoily hat see!

I have a feeling Viserion will be female and lay eggs, it just took a while to remember why. Mainly because the egg was placed between Drogo's legs, which if it means anything, must be a hint towards fertility. And, if you believe in food codes (I do), juicy pears might indicate fertility too - Sansa eats one (a 'flowered' maiden), and Dany and Daario share one before she becomes pregnant (probably). The pear tree was where Viserion chose to sleep.

I can't imagine if mother dragons are nicer or more gentle than average. Actually, maybe not.