Looking back on it couldn't Rickon been Jenye?

[Stannis is the man....nis]

5 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

Why would the Bolton's keep Rickon alive?

Once you get passed how stupid of an idea it was to agree to LF's plan, the rest of the plot was really good. The show could have fixed that by highlighting how much littlefinger was coercing her. There is a reason he doesn't tell her about the plan until moat calin. His argument (REVENGE IS A LADDER) was dumb.

But once she gets there and has no choice, it was a good plotline. And her plot in S6 has been great.

It seems like most of the SANSA WAS RAPED outrage is based on a barbaric idea that good girls don't get raped, only filthy girls do.

As a hostage to avoid rebellion

[HairGrowsBack]

22 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

Why would the Bolton's keep Rickon alive?

Once you get passed how stupid of an idea it was to agree to LF's plan, the rest of the plot was really good. The show could have fixed that by highlighting how much littlefinger was coercing her. There is a reason he doesn't tell her about the plan until moat calin. His argument (REVENGE IS A LADDER) was dumb.

But once she gets there and has no choice, it was a good plotline. And her plot in S6 has been great.

It seems like most of the SANSA WAS RAPED outrage is based on a barbaric idea that good girls don't get raped, only filthy girls do.

No it isn't. No one here has ever expressed an opinion that remotely resembles this . But by all means, keep defending the show by saying offensive and gross stuff like this2

[Good Guy Garlan]

8 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

Why would the Bolton's keep Rickon alive?

Once you get passed how stupid of an idea it was to agree to LF's plan, the rest of the plot was really good. The show could have fixed that by highlighting how much littlefinger was coercing her. There is a reason he doesn't tell her about the plan until moat calin. His argument (REVENGE IS A LADDER) was dumb.

But once she gets there and has no choice, it was a good plotline. And her plot in S6 has been great.

It seems like most of the SANSA WAS RAPED outrage is based on a barbaric idea that good girls don't get raped, only filthy girls do.

Nah. Believe it or not, the outrage for some of us is based on the idea that Sansa's was an absolutely unnecessary rape in a series that had a bit too much sexual violence to begin with.

I grant you, there's a very vocal minority who would've been perfectly fine with Jeyne Poole getting raped. Sansa getting raped was a sacrilege, but Jeyne's purpose, apparently, was to get victimized and sexually abused, and people were okay with that simply because, wait for it...it was in the books. It seems people are fine with nudity and violence, and all kinds of horrific shit, really, as long as it's canon. 

Me, personally, I'm in the no rape camp, canonical or otherwise. That's why I would've preferred Rickon in place or Sansa or Jeyne, because the less sexual violence the better. 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Sansa in Winterfell sucked. Would have much rather Rickon there, and Sansa courting Lords in the Vale to join her. Maybe send her to the Riverlands. An emotional scene where the Blackfish, who's never met her see's one sight and knows who she is. Then he takes back Riverrun and flies the Direwolf, setting up this season and the Riverlands. Extra plus, Jamie wouldn't be dicking around in Kings Landing being the only guy who doesn't know Cersei banged Lancel. 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

Heads have been smashed in, brains scattered on walls, balls cut off, people lit on fire, children stabbed through the throat, skulls drank out of, people eaten, molten gold frying brains, and a child/mother eaten alive (with the scene handled EXACTLY the same way w/ audio/visuals as Ramsay/Sansa), but the toned-down-vs-the-book-version Ramsay rape on his wedding night is where the line gets drawn?

Poole's rape in the books was an objectified shock-object. Sansa's trauma has actually been used as a plot device furthering character development. Theon's redemption, her reunion w/ Jon, and her role in the rebellion wouldn't have been nearly as impactful or worked as well (if we'd had them at all) had she been in the Vale w/ LF and Robyn for an entire season.

It was a horrible scene and Ramsay's actions have always been deplorable. You weren't supposed to enjoy them.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

14 minutes ago, Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies said:

Sansa in Winterfell sucked. Would have much rather Rickon there, and Sansa courting Lords in the Vale to join her. Maybe send her to the Riverlands. An emotional scene where the Blackfish, who's never met her see's one sight and knows who she is. Then he takes back Riverrun and flies the Direwolf, setting up this season and the Riverlands. Extra plus, Jamie wouldn't be dicking around in Kings Landing being the only guy who doesn't know Cersei banged Lancel. 

Sansa crusading through the riverlands as a recruiter wouldn't have made sense (was one of few who never fully bought into her 180 into badassery the first time) but otherwise, this would've been an improvement over Season5 as a whole completely.

[Good Guy Garlan]

4 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Heads have been smashed in, brains scattered on walls, balls cut off, people lit on fire, children stabbed through the throat, skulls drank out of, people eaten, molten gold frying brains, and a child/mother eaten alive (with the scene handled EXACTLY the same way w/ audio/visuals as Ramsay/Sansa), but the toned-down-vs-the-book-version Ramsay rape on his wedding night is where the line gets drawn?

Poole's rape in the books was an objectified shock-object. Sansa's trauma has actually been used as a plot device furthering character development. Theon's redemption, her reunion w/ Jon, and her role in the rebellion wouldn't have been nearly as impactful or worked as well (if we'd had them at all) had she been in the Vale w/ LF and Robyn for an entire season.

It was a horrible scene and Ramsay's actions have always been deplorable. You weren't supposed to enjoy them.

It was an unnecessary addition in both the books and the show. Like Jodie Foster said, enough with the trope of using rape to further the development of female characters. It could be effective if handled properly, with the necessary sensibility and nuance, but it is often used so poorly it becomes an offensive, sexist and lazy plot device. Both the show and books fail in this regard, so yes, this is where the line gets drawn. 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

9 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

It was an unnecessary addition in both the books and the show. Like Jodie Foster said, enough with the trope of using rape to further the development of female characters. It could be effective if handled properly, with the necessary sensibility and nuance, but it is often used so poorly it becomes an offensive, sexist and lazy plot device. Both the show and books fail in this regard, so yes, this is where the line gets drawn. 

The projection of 2016 values on violent, horrid stories that took place in an alternate universe with a timeline of hundreds of years ago is the lazy thing.

No one enjoyed the scene in the books or the show. But the fact of the matter is that the show took the scene that was probably's Ramsay's most monstrous and actually made it relevant to the plot while also making it significantly less barbaric than in the books. The problem should be with Martin. D&D for one of the few times made something less awful.

[Good Guy Garlan]

17 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

The projection of 2016 values on violent, horrid stories that took place in an alternate universe with a timeline of hundreds of years ago is the lazy thing.

No one enjoyed the scene in the books or the show. But the fact of the matter is that the show took the scene that was probably's Ramsay's most monstrous and actually made it relevant to the plot while also making it significantly less barbaric than in the books. The problem should be with Martin. D&D for one of the few times made something less awful.

Rape and sexual violence only happen in alternate universes with a timeline of hundreds of years ago? Huh, that's news to me. That girl who was gang raped in Brazil must've fallen through some wormhole or something. 

Asoiaf and GoT weren't written hundreds of years ago. They were written with 2016 values in mind. That's why we have characters the readers are meant to sympathize with like Jaime being diametrically opposed to marital rape, a concept that didn't exist not even two hundred years ago. That's why obvious villains like Ramsay and Gregor often use rape as a weapon. This old and tired excuse just doesn't fly. Asoiaf is a product of its time alright, but its time is the 21st century. 

And it's not about enjoyment, you keep using that word. It's about what's necessary. Yes, it's way more barbaric in the books, and it's totally for shock value. But D&D didn't make it less awful, they just switched one victim for another. And for what? For some artificial tension? To tell the audience for the millionth time that Ramsay is a monster? Why was it necessary for the story to have Sansa raped? 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

46 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

The projection of 2016 values on violent, horrid stories that took place in an alternate universe with a timeline of hundreds of years ago is the lazy thing.

No one enjoyed the scene in the books or the show. But the fact of the matter is that the show took the scene that was probably's Ramsay's most monstrous and actually made it relevant to the plot while also making it significantly less barbaric than in the books. The problem should be with Martin. D&D for one of the few times made something less awful.

Ok how about the fact that it made no sense? In order for Sansa to get to Ramsa,y LF and Roose had to take stupid pills and come up with the dumbest plan ever

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

2 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Rape and sexual violence only happen in alternate universes with a timeline of hundreds of years ago? Huh, that's news to me. That girl who was gang raped in Brazil must've fallen through some wormhole or something. 

Asoiaf and GoT weren't written hundreds of years ago. They were written with 2016 values in mind. That's why we have characters the readers are meant to sympathize with like Jaime being diametrically opposed to marital rape, a concept that didn't exist not even two hundred years ago. That's why obvious villains like Ramsay and Gregor often use rape as a weapon. This old and tired excuse just doesn't fly. Asoiaf is a product of its time alright, but its time is the 21st century. 

And it's not about enjoyment, you keep using that word. It's about what's necessary. Yes, it's way more barbaric in the books, and it's totally for shock value. But D&D didn't make it less awful, they just switched one victim for another. And for what? For some artificial tension? To tell the audience for the millionth time that Ramsay is a monster? Why was it necessary for the story to have Sansa raped? 

You missed the point. The events in the story are supposed to take place "hundreds of years ago" in some magical land. 

Sansa losing her maidenhood was used similarly to Theon losing his "manhood". Both of their original characters' entire beginning arcs really focused on those points. Theon was a whore and nothing in the world meant more to Sansa than being the princess/maiden. Ramsay took both things from them in violent, horrible ways. That's what makes him such a monster. He doesn't just abuse you. He finds what means the most to you and relishes in taking it away. Had he skinned her, would that have been better?

This show (and the books too) are darker than the vanilla shows you get on ABC/CBS/NBC. That's why it's HBO. The scene did have plot-relevance unlike the scene it's based off of. The show has shock value, that's what makes it what it is. I just can't wrap my head around the outrage at this particular scene when you've seen

• a little girl burned alive (couldn't they have just alluded to it?)
• multiple newborn babies killed (omg, just let them live!)
• a baby and its mother torn apart by dogs (send them to the riverlands Ramsay!)
• castrations (maybe just punch them?)
• a woman tied up and killed via crossbow (a simple off-screen beheading would've sufficed)
• Oberyn's head smashed like a grape (a punch to the temple could've just killed him)

Again, if you're looking for a show that's just going to make all violence a simple off-camera clean stab or gunshot wound, there are plenty of shows on the network channels.

[Tianzi]

I think Rickon could have been Jeyne, not the wife to Ramsay, but 'ward' to the Boltons. D&D's tendency to repeat themselves worries me (of course if Martin goes that way as well, I'll say the same, but I doubt that happens), two Jeynes, two WF battles, Dany's Unburnt gig played the second time, trying (and failing) to recreate the good bit abouit Tyrion and Varys ruling a city, Sansa's relationship with another psychopath, etc.

As for the R word as a plot device, it was a 'lookie, in case you haven't noticed - he is EVIL!' + victimzation of a character who didn't really need to be victimized anymore, and it was a bad move in her character development ('see, she apparently didn't learn anything with Joffrey, or she forgot, let's RAPE her to finally make her learn!'). I'd also raise objections to handling Ramsay as a character (in the books his monstrosity is clearly a handicap, here is is styled as a cool villain who can do anything), but whatever. Honestly, I have more problems with Jaime/Cersei thing, because Jaime wasn't supposed to be a rapist.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

4 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

You missed the point. The events in the story are supposed to take place "hundreds of years ago" in some magical land. 

Sansa losing her maidenhood was used similarly to Theon losing his "manhood". Both of their original characters' entire beginning arcs really focused on those points. Theon was a whore and nothing in the world meant more to Sansa than being the princess/maiden. Ramsay took both things from them in violent, horrible ways. That's what makes him such a monster. He doesn't just abuse you. He finds what means the most to you and relishes in taking it away. Had he skinned her, would that have been better?

This show (and the books too) are darker than the vanilla shows you get on ABC/CBS/NBC. That's why it's HBO. The scene did have plot-relevance unlike the scene it's based off of. The show has shock value, that's what makes it what it is. I just can't wrap my head around the outrage at this particular scene when you've seen

• a little girl burned alive (couldn't they have just alluded to it?)
• multiple newborn babies killed (omg, just let them live!)
• a baby and its mother torn apart by dogs (send them to the riverlands Ramsay!)
• a woman tied up and killed via crossbow (a simple off-screen beheading would've sufficed)
• castrations (maybe just punch them?)
• Oberyn's head smashed like a grape (a punch to the temple could've just killed him)

Again, if you're looking for a show that's just going to make all violence a simple off-camera clean stab or gunshot wound, there are plenty of shows on the network channels.

But Sansa getting raped has done nothing for the plot in the big picture she is motivated right now to go back because of Rickon

Also omg that list 3 of those events are canon and most do rant on what happened to Shireen

[Tianzi]

15 minutes ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

• a little girl burned alive (couldn't they have just alluded to it?)
• multiple newborn babies killed (omg, just let them live!)
• a baby and its mother torn apart by dogs (send them to the riverlands Ramsay!)
• castrations (maybe just punch them?)
• a woman tied up and killed via crossbow (a simple off-screen beheading would've sufficed)
• Oberyn's head smashed like a grape (a punch to the temple could've just killed him)

Ramsay and his brutality, especially involving dogs, are clearly the showrunners fetish, the woman killed via crossbow was literally added for the sake of gratuitous violence, and castrations, yeah, another fetish. Most of them are canon (though Theon's has indeed been only alluded too in the books, right?), but they love to play them up, Ramsay waving a sausage, we literally can't survive a conversation involving Varys not to be reminded of his lack of cock or 'gash' etc. Excessive violence wasn't absent in the books, but the show has really made a point to flaunt it.

[Desert Fox]

21 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

No it isn't. No one here has ever expressed an opinion that remotely resembles this . But by all means, keep defending the show by saying offensive and gross stuff like this2

 

There is a reason people weren't upset about a very similar scene in the books. Because it was Jeyne Pool, not sweet Sansa.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

13 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

 

There is a reason people weren't upset about a very similar scene in the books. Because it was Jeyne Pool, not sweet Sansa.

People were "upset" but unlike Sansa Jenye abuse made sense and had a point to it beyond "OMG shock value"

[Desert Fox]

How did it make it more sense and have a great point to it than the exact same thing minus Sansa and minus reek being directly involved.

[Tianzi]

4 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

How did it make it more sense and have a great point to it than the exact same thing minus Sansa and minus reek being directly involved.

1. Bringing home the point how evil Littlefinger is (unlike in the show where they seem to try to style him a second Jorah, to my horror).

2. Showing the situation of nobodies in Westeros.

3. Showing that Ramsay is an idiotic sadist that can harm their cause.

4. Teaching Theon empathy and leading him to rediscover his spine (it can be argued that it was also present in Sansa's situation, but in my opinion it worked better when Theon was forced to connect with a 'nobody', a person of the kind he'd been mistreating easily himself).

 

Jeyne's situation had a whole other context than Sansa's, not only 'OMG RAPE'. Speaking of which, Sansa's WF story was a repetition of her misadventures with Joffrey, only with You Know What added. It's hard to think that said You Know What wasn't supposed to steal the spotlight here. The violence might have been indeed more subdued than in Jeyne's case and for me it's not about brutality, it's about making a shitty story instead of a good one.

And, while you might have a point saying that to the audience Jeyne was more expandable because what's her face, how the hell can one call an 11yo child kidnapped, sold to brothels and raped 'a filthy girl'? I really hope you were sarcastic.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

13 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Nah. Believe it or not, the outrage for some of us is based on the idea that Sansa's was an absolutely unnecessary rape in a series that had a bit too much sexual violence to begin with.

I grant you, there's a very vocal minority who would've been perfectly fine with Jeyne Poole getting raped. Sansa getting raped was a sacrilege, but Jeyne's purpose, apparently, was to get victimized and sexually abused, and people were okay with that simply because, wait for it...it was in the books. It seems people are fine with nudity and violence, and all kinds of horrific shit, really, as long as it's canon. 

Me, personally, I'm in the no rape camp, canonical or otherwise. That's why I would've preferred Rickon in place or Sansa or Jeyne, because the less sexual violence the better. 

See that's not what was wrong with it.

Sansa's character had to lose brain cells just so she could be in a position to get raped. 

This sums it up: 

 

Well in the books, the absolute ghastly nature of it was the point. It was intended to be the most disgusting scene imaginable. I should note that there was no torture porn in the books like Season 3 gave us. The mutilation and brutalization of Theon was “off-camera” and told in reflection. So the scene in the books is actually the first time we really see Ramsay in his full sadistic nature, intentionally playing against Jeyne, who we’re really understanding for the first time as well. For her part, she suffered great abuses (off-camera) at the hands of Littlefinger, and yet is now shocked to learn there’s something worse. And then of course we have Theon, showing just how far he’s gone where he has a dagger in his hand, yet is so worried it’s a “trick” that he actively participates in Jeyne’s violation.

 

It is supposed to be the most horrifying thing we’ve had to witness, and it’s done in a way that stays true to the three characters involved, while actually fleshing them out simultaneously. And it also ties into the larger themes of the narrative and serves a purpose well beyond shock.

 

This comes back to depiction =/= endorsement. Martin depicts it with a larger commentary and a point. Now, I don’t think the show was endorsing rape by any means with Sansa. Obviously we were meant to be horrified by what was occurring (look at Theon’s reaction). However, the show endorses sexism and violence against women as shock-value, because they literally went out of their way to make that scene come to pass no matter how illogical it was, or how much it destroyed Sansa’s arc. That’s the issue.

 

 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

33 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

See that's not what was wrong with it.

Sansa's character had to lose brain cells just so she could be in a position to get raped. 

This sums it up: 

 

Well in the books, the absolute ghastly nature of it was the point. It was intended to be the most disgusting scene imaginable. I should note that there was no torture porn in the books like Season 3 gave us. The mutilation and brutalization of Theon was “off-camera” and told in reflection. So the scene in the books is actually the first time we really see Ramsay in his full sadistic nature, intentionally playing against Jeyne, who we’re really understanding for the first time as well. For her part, she suffered great abuses (off-camera) at the hands of Littlefinger, and yet is now shocked to learn there’s something worse. And then of course we have Theon, showing just how far he’s gone where he has a dagger in his hand, yet is so worried it’s a “trick” that he actively participates in Jeyne’s violation.

 

It is supposed to be the most horrifying thing we’ve had to witness, and it’s done in a way that stays true to the three characters involved, while actually fleshing them out simultaneously. And it also ties into the larger themes of the narrative and serves a purpose well beyond shock.

 

This comes back to depiction =/= endorsement. Martin depicts it with a larger commentary and a point. Now, I don’t think the show was endorsing rape by any means with Sansa. Obviously we were meant to be horrified by what was occurring (look at Theon’s reaction). However, the show endorses sexism and violence against women as shock-value, because they literally went out of their way to make that scene come to pass no matter how illogical it was, or how much it destroyed Sansa’s arc. That’s the issue.

 

 

I think this is a more fair criticism than the "omg rape is bad and the show promotes it" line that most seem to have. I do disagree with the "violence against women" part though since I find the show to be an equal-opportunity assailant of violence. NOTHING has approached what the Mountain did the Oberyn as far as on-screen violence/horror. 

As far as ruining Sansa's arc, IDK. Her revenge arc against Ramsay (Rickon pushed Jon but Sansa wanted to get her revenge immediately) is a better storyline than parading around the Vale as LFs bastard-daughter.... something that goes against EVERYTHING that character is supposed to be. The "all-knowing" master manipulator all of a sudden has a teenage bastard daughter? 

The actions that led to Sansa arriving at WF also happened in the wake of Tywin's death. Roose even speaks to seeing an opening bc Cersei is an incompetent petulant tyrant. As a whole, I don't particularly see why Ramsay needed a bride, but consolidating Sansa into the role never bothered me.