Crackpot: House Hoare, Houses Lothston and Whent, The Stone Beast and the Blackfyre Rebellion

[Damon_Tor]

TLDR: The Stone Beast taking wing from the Burning Tower is the transformation of House Hoare into House Lothston as it secretly survives the Burning of Harrenhall. The "shadow fire" it breathes is the Blackfyre Rebellion which house Lothston engineered. The final lie Dany must "slay" is the lie that house Hoare is dead; it survives in House Lothston, it's successor house Whent, and any descendants thereof... including any surviving children of Catlyn Stark, whose mother was a Whent.

This is a total crackpot. It came to me in a rush while posting in another thread about the HotU prophecy which was looking for matches for the "Stone beast" in the Slayer of Lies stanza:

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

It occurred to me that many of the visions in this prophecy were visions of the PAST, and so I began to think of towers that burned in the past, and Harrenhall seemed the most obvious.

But no stone beast took wing from that tower? Or did it? Heraldry.

From the World of Ice and Fire we have reason to believe that house Hoare survived the burning of Harrenhall: Harren the Red claimed to be his grandson. Harren the Red (red hair?) was later killed but was he alone? Who were his parents? Did he have siblings? If House Hoare survived to the current era of ASoIaF as relevant players they would have to have changed their name and heraldry, so I went looking for noble houses that surfaced in the last 300 years which include "winged beasts" in their heraldry.

The most obvious candidates are the bats of houses Lothston and their successor house Whent. Lothston even has "stone" in the name.

But how are they "breathing shadow fire?"

So I looked into the origins of house Lothston: the first time we hear about them is in 151: the master-at-arms of the Red Keep is a man named Lucas Lothston. It's discovered that Aegon Targaryen (who would later be crowned Aegon IV, called "Aegon the Unworthy") has been sleeping with Falena Stokeworth. To remove her from the castle, Falena is married to Lucas Lothston, and Lothston is given the vacant Harrenhall. (Interesting note: Alyn Stokeworth was the man who hunted down Harren the Red.) However, Lucas Lothston was nicknamed "The Pander" (another word for "Pimp") because he allowed Aegon free access to his wife... and later to his daughter as well when Aegon names Lothston Hand of the King. Aegon's lust, apparently cultivated by Lothston, brought about the birth of a staggering number of bastards, including Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers, Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, and of course Daemon Blackfyre.

So how much influence did Lucas Lothston have over Aegon IV? Did he somehow engineer the tryst between Aegon and Falena or did he simply take advantage of the situation? Eventually he was able to turn this influence into signifigant power as the the Hand of the King, if only for a short time. Perhaps more importantly, did "The Pander" arrange for any other trysts for Aegon IV than with his wife and daughter? Did he encourage Aegon to sleep with Daena Targaryen, Melissa Blackwood, Barbra Bracken, and others in the hope of bringing ruin? Did he convince him to legitimize all this bastards, this setting the stage for the Blackfyre rebellion?

Manfred Lothston (Lucas' son) did side with Blackfyre, but later betrayed him (to what end?). A man named Jon Lothston is a member of the Golden Company in the current timeframe of the novels though it isn't clear what relationship, if any, exists between him and the Lucas Lothston.

So it isn't a stretch to imagine the "shadow fire" breathed by the stone beast is instead a reference to "Blackfyre", the end product of Lothston's scheming.

So apart from Jon Lothston who might not actually be a Lothston at all, where is house Lothston today?

Dead, apparently. A while back Lady Danielle Lothston decided she should become a Dracula; she supposedly bathed in blood and send giant bats to kidnap people. Not exactly good for the more subtle, behind-the-scenes sort of super-villainy required by this particular plot, so naturally she had to go, and was replaced by house Whent, knights in service to house Lothston. But who are these Whents? Where did they come from? Are they related to house Lothston by blood? They use the same sigil (nine bats instead of just one) so it stands to reason the beast still takes wing.

So if the Whents are Lothstons (likely) and the Lothstons are Hoares (admittedly unlikely) then that means that Catlyn Stark and all her children are also descendants of Harren Hoare: the black blood.

Red hair seems to tie alot of this together some. "Harren the Red" has it right there in his name. The Lothstons and Whents are described as having red hair, and of course Cat and Sansa have red hair as well.

[Damon_Tor]

Not even a view, wow, okay, I guess the Lothston conspiracy goes DEEP.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I think if there had been an actual surviving Hoare (rather than just someone who claimed to be one) we'd know about it. How come none of them came forward and tried to claim the Kingship of the Iron Islands? Qhorin Volmark tried to claim to be House Hoare's heir, since his grandmother had been the younger sister of Harren's grandfather.

[CJ McLannister]

I feel like there's a good "Wherever Hoares go," pun here, but I can't quite find it.

[Damon_Tor]

2 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I think if there had been an actual surviving Hoare (rather than just someone who claimed to be one) we'd know about it. How come none of them came forward and tried to claim the Kingship of the Iron Islands? Qhorin Volmark tried to claim to be House Hoare's heir, since his grandmother had been the younger sister of Harren's grandfather.

It's pretty clear the Hoares didn't care about the Iron Islands at all; their plans required proximity to the God's Eye for whatever reason. It's why they built Harrenhall in the Rivelands instead of fortifying the fuck out of one of their islands. I think after Harren the Red failed to accomplish anything by retaking Harrenhall overtly they decided to stay in the shadows.

Remember I'm working backwards from the HotU prophecy. So far "Hoare becomes Lothston causes Blackfyre rebellion" is the only one I've found that accounts for all elements of the vision. Stone, wings, smoking tower, shadow fire, all the elements are there.

That said, it seems possible to me that while the Whents are descended from Hoare, they probably don't know it: the death of Danielle Lothston probably marked the end of anyone who was KNOWINGLY the descendant of Harren.

Unless Melisandre is actually Danielle Lothston HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

NO! No I can't do it again. I can't descend into the madness...

[PrettyPig]

4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Not even a view, wow, okay, I guess the Lothston conspiracy goes DEEP.

Perhaps even deeper than you think!  

Seriously though, this is interesting....I've been halfway and intermittently working on a Lothston conspiracy idea of my own, and it also ties into the Blackfyres.    I haven't posted anything about it because it's still in the fledgling stages, but in fooling around with the timelines, it's entirely possible that Mad Danelle is a daughter or granddaughter of Aegon IV, an unacknowledged progeny of the king and Jeyne Lothston.

What led me down this rabbit hole was a random thought connection to House Whent, btw:

 

Quote

"High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts ..."

 

Quote

"Catelyn knew them all: the Blackwoods and the Brackens, ever enemies, whose quarrels her father was obliged to settle; Lady Whent, last of her line, who dwelt with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal;"

Kings who are gone - House Hoare.

Another interesting and suspicious connection:   check out the surnames sported by some of the members of the Golden Company:  Mudd, Strong, Lothston.   All river kings or former houses of Harrenhal.    

Anyway, I think there's a lot unsaid about the legacy of the Harrenhal lords, and I have to wonder if GRRM is keeping this close to the vest for a reason.  There's very little - more like nothing, really - about these houses in TWOIAF, and I lean toward the belief that 'if it ain't in the World Book, it's gonna be important.'

 

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

51 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's pretty clear the Hoares didn't care about the Iron Islands at all; their plans required proximity to the God's Eye for whatever reason. It's why they built Harrenhall in the Rivelands instead of fortifying the fuck out of one of their islands. I think after Harren the Red failed to accomplish anything by retaking Harrenhall overtly they decided to stay in the shadows.

Remember I'm working backwards from the HotU prophecy. So far "Hoare becomes Lothston causes Blackfyre rebellion" is the only one I've found that accounts for all elements of the vision. Stone, wings, smoking tower, shadow fire, all the elements are there.

That said, it seems possible to me that while the Whents are descended from Hoare, they probably don't know it: the death of Danielle Lothston probably marked the end of anyone who was KNOWINGLY the descendant of Harren.

Unless Melisandre is actually Danielle Lothston HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

NO! No I can't do it again. I can't descend into the madness...

I imagine that they built Harrenhal in the Riverlands more because it would've been a hell of a lot more work to try and ship everything over to the Iron Islands. Plus it was a land that's hostile to them and hates them; so it makes sense to have some fortified place that they can watch over the Riverlords from. I think where we differ is that I don't think that Harren the Black had any kind of plan pertaining to the God's Eye in particular.

Also, where does the 'stone' part of 'stone' beast come into your theory?

[Damon_Tor]

2 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I imagine that they built Harrenhal in the Riverlands more because it would've been a hell of a lot more work to try and ship everything over to the Iron Islands. Plus it was a land that's hostile to them and hates them; so it makes sense to have some fortified place that they can watch over the Riverlords from. I think where we differ is that I don't think that Harren the Black had any kind of plan pertaining to the God's Eye in particular.

Are you suggesting there was an upper limit to the amount of labor Harren was willing to impose upon his subjects? If he had desired a massive caste in the Iron Islands I don't doubt he would have made it happen, or destroyed the realm trying. And as much as the riverlands hated him, as far as I can tell, so did the Iron Islands and everybody else.

 

3 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

Also, where does the 'stone' part of 'stone' beast come into your theory?

It's in the name. Lothston.

[TheSovereignGrave]

1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

Are you suggesting there was an upper limit to the amount of labor Harren was willing to impose upon his subjects? If he had desired a massive caste in the Iron Islands I don't doubt he would have made it happen, or destroyed the realm trying. And as much as the riverlands hated him, as far as I can tell, so did the Iron Islands and everybody else.

 

It's in the name. Lothston.

While I know they weren't really loved in the Iron Islands I don't imagine they were hated quite as much. I mean, if they were hated as much as in the Riverlands I don't think Qhorin Volmark would have tried to claim the Iron Islands by right of his Hoare blood. Plus having a massive castle in the middle of Westeros next to a lake with a holy island in it is far more impressive than having one in the Iron Islands.

 

And I think that's a pretty big stretch; ending in -ston doesn't mean it has any relation to stone at all.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well it's an original thought that can't be proven false, but it just seems to obscure to me, I don't see why Dany would have to slay that particular lie, or why anyone would care.  My best guesses are involving Jon Con(a griffen with greyscale) and Aegon(a blackfyre).

[Damon_Tor]

43 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

And I think that's a pretty big stretch; ending in -ston doesn't mean it has any relation to stone at all.

It could possibly be a place name: if there was a town in westeros called "Lothston" (ie "Loths Town") I'd concede the point.

It doesn't appear to be a real surname, so its entirely GRRM's invention. If we simply look at it in English, it appears to mean "Loathe Stone" or "Loath Stone". Either way, it's a cool name for a family associated with a huge evil castle that seems to resist being occupied.

40 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well it's an original thought that can't be proven false, but it just seems to obscure to me, I don't see why Dany would have to slay that particular lie, or why anyone would care.

The mystery of Harrenhall has been central to the plot: the castle has driven history for 300 years, since it was built, and so much of our story has involved Harrenhall. The lie may be less about exposing the Whents as Hoares (as noted, the surviving Whent ancestors certainly do not know about any of this, even if their blood is somehow tainted) but about exposing the true nature of Harrenhall.

Maybe the only reason the dragons came to Westeros was to stop Harrenhall, and they failed, and now Harrenhall is the reason the Others are coming. Or maybe corrupting the Stark blood with Whent blood is the problem? And I keep coming back to the throwaway comment that Craster's "blood is black" and Lord Commander Hoare. There has just got to be more to Harrenhall and the Hoares, it has GOT to be important somehow.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

I feel like there's a good "Wherever Hoares go," pun here, but I can't quite find it.

That's what I'm thinking, too! If the question is, "Where do whores go?" Maybe the reply is, "Where the Hoares Whent."

The Lucas Lothston / The Pander character fits with some things I've been trying to sort out about Littlefinger, who also becomes the Lord of Harrenhal. Both men have a creepy sexual approach to a mother / daughter pair: Lothston pimping out his wife and daughter to Aegon IV, and Littlefinger unclear whether he sees Sansa / Alayne as a potential lover, daughter or pawn to be married off for diplomatic purposes (or all three). Littlefinger becomes Lord of Harrenhal as a reward for brokering the Tyrell marriage, which might also fit this "pander" scenario. For what it's worth, I think we are also supposed to compare Littlefinger to Craster (the creepy wife / daughter confusion again), the Kindly Man and the Widow of the Waterfront.

The original Hoare coat of arms seems to address a lot of symbols all at once. The wiki explains that parts represent Oldtown, Bear Island and The Reach but, to me, they seem to represent the three branches of the Trident river with a bunch of other stuff as well. Air, land and sea are represented. Are the chains showing continuity, or separating? In other words, way too many symbols in one sigil. Maybe GRRM is trying to show a universal sigil of the First Men, with many symbols rolled into one.

If House Hoare does represent a universal "First Men" ruler at a central site in Westeros, this could explain the importance of this location and the things it represents in Dany's vision. Just as Aegon the Conqueror had to wipe out a King of the First Men who wanted to unite regions under his big castle, Dany has to wipe out the same forces that might unite against renewed Targaryen rule.

The break between the sigils of Hoare and Lothston probably symbolizes the break between the first men and the Andals. There was usually not a clean break: intermarriage started immediately, to reassure restless vassals or to cement the legitimacy of the new claims. So the connection was probably through the female line. (By the way, with the black magic and seduction of the king stuff thrown in, that reminds me very much of the Maggy the Frog / House Spicer / House Westerling scenario.) But sigils usually represent only the male line, so we see Lothston with the bat symbol instead of bringing over the Stokeworth lamb with the King's mistress.

One the other hand, I just went back and found a couple of comments @Isobel Harper wrote on the Puns and Wordplay thread. She points out that imagery around Sansa changes after she leaves King's Landing - she stops being The Hound's "Little Bird" and starts being associated with bats. (Isobel also says there is more on the bat / Sansa topic in a link in her signature.) So the bird on the Hoare sigil may take over the whole shield and evolve into the bat, similar to the way Sansa's literary symbolism changes when her circumstances change. Since the Tullys take over the Riverlands after the defeat of House Hoare, and Sansa/Alayne Stone is strongly associated with Catelyn, the takeover of Harrenhal by a family with a bat sigil could be a parallel transformation.

Jaime gives Brienne the old shield from Harrenhal to use on her quest to find Sansa. In the countryside, the reaction to the Lothston bat sigil is interesting - everyone tells Brienne that it has bad associations and she soon has someone cover it up. But we have Jaime "giving" the sigil, Brienne (a maid, like Sansa) accepting it, a quest given by Catelyn but renewed by Jaime to find the Stark daughters, a bat associated with Sansa who is the object of the quest, and a shield from Harrenhal where Sansa's creepy mentor / father is the new Lord. Brienne soon has the shield repainted with the arms of Ser Duncan the Tall. I'm not sure what that might mean for the evolution of the sigils associated with Harrenhal, but I'm sure it's significant.

[Damon_Tor]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

The Lucas Lothston / The Pander character fits with some things I've been trying to sort out about Littlefinger, who also becomes the Lord of Harrenhal. Both men have a creepy sexual approach to a mother / daughter pair: Lothston pimping out his wife and daughter to Aegon IV, and Littlefinger unclear whether he sees Sansa / Alayne as a potential lover, daughter or pawn to be married off for diplomatic purposes (or all three). Littlefinger becomes Lord of Harrenhal as a reward for brokering the Tyrell marriage, which might also fit this "pander" scenario. For what it's worth, I think we are also supposed to compare Littlefinger to Craster (the creepy wife / daughter confusion again), the Kindly Man and the Widow of the Waterfront@Isobel Harper.

 

That's a great connection

 

13 hours ago, Seams said:

The original Hoare coat of arms seems to address a lot of symbols all at once. The wiki explains that parts represent Oldtown, Bear Island and The Reach but, to me, they seem to represent the three branches of the Trident river with a bunch of other stuff as well. Air, land and sea are represented. Are the chains showing continuity, or separating? In other words, way too many symbols in one sigil. Maybe GRRM is trying to show a universal sigil of the First Men, with many symbols rolled into one.@Isobel Harper

I really wish we knew what the Hoare coat of arms was BEFORE the conquest of so much of the continent. Taking on the symbols of the conquered lands almost seems like diplomacy to me.

[TheSovereignGrave]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

I really wish we knew what the Hoare coat of arms was BEFORE the conquest of so much of the continent. Taking on the symbols of the conquered lands almost seems like diplomacy to me.

They may not have had one, really. We don't know when the First Men began adopting sigils for their families and the Hoare sigil is a reference to a King who lived all the way back in the Age of Heroes.

[Damon_Tor]

Sure, but Hoare was a relative poster boy for Andalization: it actually caused them quite a bit of trouble over the years, and cost them the kingship more than once.Heraldry would have been a relatively inoffensive aspect of Andalization and an easy one to adopt, so it's hard to imagine that by the time the Hoares were allowing septs to be built (and all the trouble that brought with it) they remained unwilling to paint animals on their shields.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I really wish we knew what the Hoare coat of arms was BEFORE the conquest of so much of the continent. Taking on the symbols of the conquered lands almost seems like diplomacy to me.

Since they originated in the Iron Islands, maybe the long ship at the top of the sigil was the earliest part. They later conquered Bear Island, the Arbor and Oldtown, adding the other sections.

Instead of the sigil, maybe we need to learn more about Orkmont Island to understand their origin.

I was recently pondering the Disputed Lands in the middle between Lys, Mir and Tyrosh. The War of the Ninepenny Kings started up with a meeting here and I think the location might have a symbolic meaning - that it takes on elements of all three of those cities. Orkmont might be similar in that it is centrally located among the Iron Islands. But I haven't studied the Iron Islands closely enough to know whether each island might have a unique symbolic meaning.

[Maester of Valyria]

Lothstone

Loth => Loath = reluctant/unwilling

or:

Loth => Loathe = despise/abhor

Sounds like GRRM may be sneaking in a few hints about despised stone lords...

[Damon_Tor]

I've always been suspicious of the YiTish "Grey Emperors" with the family name "Har". The first grey emperor was named "Har Loi" and "whose throne was said to be a saddle." Then you get the Ironborn, who almost all claim to be descended from a mythical ruler called "The Grey King", and you've got a number of very popular names with "Har" in them, and the family "Harlaw" Harwyn Hoare, who conquered the riverlands, was also described as having a saddle for a throne.

We can explain building Harrenhall pretty conventionally: Harren was an egomaniac and wanted wave his dick around. The "blood in the mortar" stuff was probably just vilification by his enemies.

It's very odd, though, that Harren's brother joined the Night's Watch. I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where that was likely to have happened. And he was well enough liked there to be elected Lord Commander. Weird, coming from such a universally reviled family. Then Craster and his "black blood" (only elsewhere used to describe House Hoare) and the fact that he is front and center on the reemergence of the White Walkers.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Instead of the sigil, maybe we need to learn more about Orkmont Island to understand their origin.

I was recently pondering the Disputed Lands in the middle between Lys, Mir and Tyrosh. The War of the Ninepenny Kings started up with a meeting here and I think the location might have a symbolic meaning - that it takes on elements of all three of those cities. Orkmont might be similar in that it is centrally located among the Iron Islands. But I haven't studied the Iron Islands closely enough to know whether each island might have a unique symbolic meaning.

Well House Hoare didn't stay on Orkmont long: they built their castle on Great Wyk. One thing you can say about House Hoare is that they seem EXTREMELY adaptable and willing to change. Their sigil changes as they take new lands, their seat of power changes regularly, and they were one of the first houses to absorb Andal culture. And they're the proverbial bad penny: they get knocked down, crushed by their enemies, castles toppled, and a few centuries later they're on top, ruling again. So if ANY house is capable of surviving, reinventing itself as a totally new house, and coming up with a centuries-spanning master plan to retake the continent, that house would be Hoare.

I just wish I understood what their goals were. It COULD just be simple world domination, but then I think about Lord Commander Hoare and Craster and I'm filled with doubt.

[TheSovereignGrave]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Sure, but Hoare was a relative poster boy for Andalization: it actually caused them quite a bit of trouble over the years, and cost them the kingship more than once.Heraldry would have been a relatively inoffensive aspect of Andalization and an easy one to adopt, so it's hard to imagine that by the time the Hoares were allowing septs to be built (and all the trouble that brought with it) they remained unwilling to paint animals on their shields.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The Hoare crest is a reference to a Hoare king from the Age of Heroes, so when the habit of families using sigil and crests came about they could've just picked the Hoare sigil we all know. The one with the four separate images could very well just be the original sigil of House Hoare.

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's very odd, though, that Harren's brother joined the Night's Watch. I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where that was likely to have happened. And he was well enough liked there to be elected Lord Commander. Weird, coming from such a universally reviled family. Then Craster and his "black blood" (only elsewhere used to describe House Hoare) and the fact that he is front and center on the reemergence of the White Walkers.

Harren could've banished him up north for some reason; and the Hoares weren't universally reviled by all of Westeros. At least not anymore than the Ironborn in general. And up on the Wall, it's possible to look past someone being Ironborn if if they're skilled. Though I do wonder if Ironborn brothers take their vows before the sea...

[Daendrew]

Harren said stone doesn't burn. Burning is the red imagery. Black bats are flying monsters. I like the concept. 

The prophesies have multiple meanings.

i think the main meaning of this mystery is that the stone dragon is made of ice.

https://endgameofthrones.com/2015/05/30/the-stone-dragon-is-made-of-ice/?preview_id=174

Read my IceBrandon theory to understand it.