chris1994

Heraldry and correct blazons in the Wiki

54 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, chris1994 said:

I guess that must actually be a continuity mistake of George's since it actually says on the Citadel that it's three candles. But since the books always trump everything else, I guess you're right that it should be corrected.

Perhaps the three candles came from an earlier draft of the sigil.. the Citadel also states that no member of the House has yet appeared, yet we see Ser Edmund in Feast. So possibly, this sigil was changed between the original notes and the publication of Feast.

 

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

Well there seems to a Knight of Wickenden which is Ser Edmund Waxley, but there is also a Lord Waxley mentioned so there might actually be two branches.

but i to could only find 1 reference and that's to six, im guessing its the same as you found.

That there might be two branches (knightly and lordly) is indeed possible. However, the six candles refer to Ser Edmund, right? And he is the Knight of Wickenden. So the sigil for House Waxley of Wickenden should indeed contain six candles, not three.

 

14 hours ago, Morgiou said:

I'm hoping this is a good topic to post this in. (I'm pretty sure this is my first foray into the forums, and I didn't see a search function anywhere.)

By chance, I happened to notice that while the Wiki article on House Waxley says the Waxley sigil features three candles, the only reference I could find to it in currently available Song of Ice and Fire books and preview chapters says six candles. See:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talk:House_Waxley

Unless there's something to the contrary in other canon materials (which I don't have), House Waxley's Wiki article should probably be corrected, including the blason. (I'm an ignorant and inartistic hack when it comes to graphics, so I'm not the guy.)

I'm no hero in Photoshop either, but it should be a relatively simple matter of copying and repositioning he candles, right? Does the license of the image allow for us to alter it?

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On ‎5‎-‎7‎-‎2016 at 3:28 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Perhaps the three candles came from an earlier draft of the sigil.. the Citadel also states that no member of the House has yet appeared, yet we see Ser Edmund in Feast. So possibly, this sigil was changed between the original notes and the publication of Feast.

 

That there might be two branches (knightly and lordly) is indeed possible. However, the six candles refer to Ser Edmund, right? And he is the Knight of Wickenden. So the sigil for House Waxley of Wickenden should indeed contain six candles, not three.

 

I'm no hero in Photoshop either, but it should be a relatively simple matter of copying and repositioning he candles, right? Does the license of the image allow for us to alter it?

yes the six candles is mentioned in reference to an knight so that would presumably be ser edmund. Altough he is not mentioned by name in the reference in question.

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On 5.7.2016 at 0:26 PM, direpupy said:

Well there seems to a Knight of Wickenden which is Ser Edmund Waxley, but there is also a Lord Waxley mentioned so there might actually be two branches.

but i to could only find 1 reference and that's to six, im guessing its the same as you found.

I guess this is possible but I actually doubt it since I think that this would have been clarified in the books if the case. I find it more likely that the mentioned "Lord Waxley" is actually simpy Ser Edmund. I'm not exactly sure on how the titles work and when you're allowed to use Lord but I've interpreted it that saying Lord Waxley just means the head of House Waxley because you can't say Ser Waxley; the title Ser is always followed by a first name and if you just call him Ser Edmund, you wouldn't necessarily know that he is the head of the House by that title.. So Ser Edmund would indeed be Lord Waxley but not Lord Edmund since he is no actual lord. But maybe I'm overthinking this... anyway this particular discussion probably doesn't belong in this thread anymore.

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House Ironsmith:

Quote

A black sword upright between four black horseshoes on gold, a grey-green border

I think if a horseshoe points upwards, this needs to be mentioned. So if there is no specific mention, the horseshoe usually points downwards. But since the Citadel also shows them pointing upwards, this might be another situation where GRRM doesn't care for RL heraldry.

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On ‎8‎-‎7‎-‎2016 at 3:45 PM, chris1994 said:

I guess this is possible but I actually doubt it since I think that this would have been clarified in the books if the case. I find it more likely that the mentioned "Lord Waxley" is actually simpy Ser Edmund. I'm not exactly sure on how the titles work and when you're allowed to use Lord but I've interpreted it that saying Lord Waxley just means the head of House Waxley because you can't say Ser Waxley; the title Ser is always followed by a first name and if you just call him Ser Edmund, you wouldn't necessarily know that he is the head of the House by that title.. So Ser Edmund would indeed be Lord Waxley but not Lord Edmund since he is no actual lord. But maybe I'm overthinking this... anyway this particular discussion probably doesn't belong in this thread anymore.

I agree it should not be continued in this tread but want to say one more thing on it.

Yes you are overthinking there are several instaces in the book that contradict your idea on the titels.

PS.

I do like al the effort you put into the heraldry it is much appreciatted and i would like to thank you for the time and hard work you have put in.

 

Edited by direpupy

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On 10.7.2016 at 3:49 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

House Ironsmith:

I think if a horseshoe points upwards, this needs to be mentioned. So if there is no specific mention, the horseshoe usually points downwards. But since the Citadel also shows them pointing upwards, this might be another situation where GRRM doesn't care for RL heraldry.

Yeah you're probably right but there are several instances where I found myself faced with this issue. In this particular case, I don't know if in RL blazoning the horseshoes would automatically be pointed downward if not otherwise specified. My guess is that they simply would have to be blazoned either up or down so the painter would know what to do. And that's the case for many Houses.

So the question remains if you should make the blazon more specific than the original description based on a depiction of the sigil... I'm not really in favor of this, except when it's absolutely necessary, because you're then kind of weakening the meaning of the original description. But yeah, it's a bit of a problem. Ofttimes it's also the attitude (the position) of an animal which is just not described in most cases so the artist has to "come up" with a specific attitude which wouldn't be clear either way and in fact the blazon would have to specify this... So yeah, bit problematic.

On 11.7.2016 at 9:36 AM, direpupy said:

I do like al the effort you put into the heraldry it is much appreciatted and i would like to thank you for the time and hard work you have put in.

 

Thank you ;) I actually really enjoyed this work so it didn't really feel like work for me and I think I'll get on the German wiki soon and do the same

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18 hours ago, chris1994 said:

I don't know if in RL blazoning the horseshoes would automatically be pointed downward if not otherwise specified.

At least in German heraldry that's the case, but I'm not sure about the blazoning in English.

 

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On 21-7-2016 at 10:59 PM, chris1994 said:

 In this particular case, I don't know if in RL blazoning the horseshoes would automatically be pointed downward if not otherwise specified.

 

In real life a horseshoe is pointed downwards unless otherwise specified.

 

19 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 

At least in German heraldry that's the case, but I'm not sure about the blazoning in English.

 

It is the same in English heraldry.

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On 21.7.2016 at 10:59 PM, chris1994 said:

I think I'll get on the German wiki soon and do the same

This would be great. :) 

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

It is the same in English heraldry.

Thanks.

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On 21.7.2016 at 10:59 PM, chris1994 said:

... I think I'll get on the German wiki soon and do the same

there is a German wiki? how do I find this?

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On 11/7/2016 at 9:52 PM, Túrin the Turambar said:

I knew the site, but I didn't know that this is an "official" westeros.org-wiki. I thought only the selectable languages in the awoiaf were such...

I'm not sure if we are an "official" Westeros.org wiki, but I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. ;) We are a small but eager community, so feel free if you like to join or contribute. :)

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3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm not sure if we are an "official" Westeros.org wiki, but I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. ;) We are a small but eager community, so feel free if you like to join or contribute. :)

at the moment I have little time, but maybe in a few weeks... however, since I read the books only in English, I have no clue about the German terminolgy which sounds quite strange to my ears on many issues...

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