chasing the dragons

Who will resist Dany in Westeros?

111 posts in this topic

  • The sailor Quithe is painting is not traveling through the smoking sea, do you ever pay attention?  He is only traveling close to valyria's shoreline.--

    UMM evidence?? Again, no evidence from you. I admit, this particular scene is only sugestive and cannot be used as definitive evidence. But I wont make your mistake of just assuming something that then stating it as fact as you have just done here. We don't know if he is going through the smoking sea or not.

     Also Quithe is not a sailor, LOL. Do you even pay attention to the show or the books. Look her up.

Can you even read??

The Sailor Quiathe is painting is what I said. Try harder, please?

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If the time in the 18th century was shorter as you propose, that wouldn't have used the word still in the sentence. And they wouldn't have had the examples of the 15th-16th century I showed previously in that link. You can't just say then, you assume it means something else. Thats utterly stupid

Again, you choose to use the time it took one ship to travel under perfect conditions and then extrapolate that to think that an armada of 300+ ships all could keep that pace? Incredible. Lmao....more fail. .

 

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1. You said no one survived sailing the smoking sea, - you were not right because tyrion and Jorah sailed it and survived. In the books Euron also sailed the smoking sea and survived. So this statement is technically not true.

Euron claims to have sailed the smoking sea, It is a point that is disputed even in the book itself. Again-try harder! While Tyrion and Jorah did cross the smoking sea, they are the first that are know to have done such, and it almost cost Jorah his life. Piloting a small shipping vessel through the smoking sea does not equate to it being safe to lead an armada on the same path. It's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no clue on sea travel, rather you spend hours googling for a few exceptions to the rule to try to prove your point. It would be suicidal and just plain stupid for Dany to suggest going through a dangerous shortcut with 350 ships, when they have no idea how deep the area is. sunken landmasses of a previously mountainous area are going to be fraught with dangerous hidden obstacles that could do serious damage to any number of the ships in the armada, and then who knows when the lethal gasses might pose a problem. You also have the fact that you would need 300+ captains willing to make that shortcut (again, not going to happen). And last but not least, I am quite sure Tyrion would strongly advise against it, having witnessed what happened to Jorah when they did make that trip. Again-try harder.

4. You said Westeros must be at least 2 months away from Mereen by sail. Then provided on evidence to support this. I provided a map showing it to be 2400-2600 miles if you go threw the smoking sea which translates to optimally 12-16 days sail. If you want to go around Valyria, its probably another few days but I have to check. Nowhere near the 2 months you propose. But you ignore this point.

It's 3600 miles sail from Meereen to Sunspear, proven by a map you provided. End of story. There is no shortcut through the smoking sea, this is stupidity (which is why you keep arguing for it). It's a 300+ ship Armada, not a lightly loaded  single super sail ship, sailing under ideal conditions.

5. You said that ships in Danys fleet carry 400-600 people tops. Well we looked at a scene which showed her fleet and those ships are WAAAY too small to even consider that many people. But again, it was ignored.

More lies from you. I never said Dany's ships carried 400-600 people. What I did say is that there were slave ships that did carry that many people, brought up the fact the the bulk of Dany's fleet was made up of slave ships, and as such would not be surprising that Dany's ships could carry much more that the cargo you are using in your off the wall speculations. Show me were I said Dany's ships could carry 600 people? I did say if the journey was as short as you first claimed (which I have proven it isn't) then, and only then, could the ships capacity be increased two fold. Once again I will connect the dots for you, the journey is not a few days (your first post), not five days(your next off the wall post) and not a few weeks (again another post from you). It is over a month long at least, most likely two months, and for that reason, Dany's ships cannot be loaded over capacity. Are you really that thick?

6. You kept pointing out I said it was 5 days to travel. But failed to realise I said, across the narrow sea. Which is true, it is only a few days sail across the narrow sea since it is only a few hundred miles off the shores of westeros to say, Pentos on the other side of the sea. 

Yes, you did say across the narrow sea, I will give you that. Let me give you a lesson on context. You not only said it took five days to cross the narrow sea, you then extrapolated that into how long (using this same five days) it would take for Dany to move her forces to Westeros. Hey, guess what? Dany's forces are not on the East bank of the narrow sea, they are in Meereen. This was a known fact. Given the context of your post, either you were totally clueless as to where Dany forces set sail from, or, more likely, you didn't have a clue where on the map Meereen was when you first made your post. Good try though! Your really grasping at straws here, it's actually quite funny!

 

Edited by Ice Spider

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3 hours ago, Ice Spider said:
  • The sailor Quithe is painting is not traveling through the smoking sea, do you ever pay attention?  He is only traveling close to valyria's shoreline.--

    UMM evidence?? Again, no evidence from you. I admit, this particular scene is only sugestive and cannot be used as definitive evidence. But I wont make your mistake of just assuming something that then stating it as fact as you have just done here. We don't know if he is going through the smoking sea or not.

     Also Quithe is not a sailor, LOL. Do you even pay attention to the show or the books. Look her up.

Can you even read??

The Sailor Quiathe is painting is what I said. Try harder, please?

Again, you choose to use the time it took one ship to travel under perfect conditions and then extrapolate that to think that an armada of 300+ ships all could keep that pace? Incredible. Lmao....more fail. .

 

Euron claims to have sailed the smoking sea, It is a point that is disputed even in the book itself. Again-try harder! While Tyrion and Jorah did cross the smoking sea, they are the first that are know to have done such, and it almost cost Jorah his life. Piloting a small shipping vessel through the smoking sea does not equate to it being safe to lead an armada on the same path. It's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no clue on sea travel, rather you spend hours googling for a few exceptions to the rule to try to prove your point. It would be suicidal and just plain stupid for Dany to suggest going through a dangerous shortcut with 350 ships, when they have no idea how deep the area is. sunken landmasses of a previously mountainous area are going to be fraught with dangerous hidden obstacles that could do serious damage to any number of the ships in the armada, and then who knows when the lethal gasses might pose a problem. You also have the fact that you would need 300+ captains willing to make that shortcut (again, not going to happen). And last but not least, I am quite sure Tyrion would strongly advise against it, having witnessed what happened to Jorah when they did make that trip. Again-try harder.

4. You said Westeros must be at least 2 months away from Mereen by sail. Then provided on evidence to support this. I provided a map showing it to be 2400-2600 miles if you go threw the smoking sea which translates to optimally 12-16 days sail. If you want to go around Valyria, its probably another few days but I have to check. Nowhere near the 2 months you propose. But you ignore this point.

It's 3600 miles sail from Meereen to Sunspear, proven by a map you provided. End of story. There is no shortcut through the smoking sea, this is stupidity (which is why you keep arguing for it). It's a 300+ ship Armada, not a lightly loaded  single super sail ship, sailing under ideal conditions.

5. You said that ships in Danys fleet carry 400-600 people tops. Well we looked at a scene which showed her fleet and those ships are WAAAY too small to even consider that many people. But again, it was ignored.

More lies from you. I never said Dany's ships carried 400-600 people. What I did say is that there were slave ships that did carry that many people, brought up the fact the the bulk of Dany's fleet was made up of slave ships, and as such would not be surprising that Dany's ships could carry much more that the cargo you are using in your off the wall speculations. Show me were I said Dany's ships could carry 600 people? I did say if the journey was as short as you first claimed (which I have proven it isn't) then, and only then, could the ships capacity be increased two fold. Once again I will connect the dots for you, the journey is not a few days (your first post), not five days(your next off the wall post) and not a few weeks (again another post from you). It is over a month long at least, most likely two months, and for that reason, Dany's ships cannot be loaded over capacity. Are you really that thick?

6. You kept pointing out I said it was 5 days to travel. But failed to realise I said, across the narrow sea. Which is true, it is only a few days sail across the narrow sea since it is only a few hundred miles off the shores of westeros to say, Pentos on the other side of the sea. 

Yes, you did say across the narrow sea, I will give you that. Let me give you a lesson on context. You not only said it took five days to cross the narrow sea, you then extrapolated that into how long (using this same five days) it would take for Dany to move her forces to Westeros. Hey, guess what? Dany's forces are not on the East bank of the narrow sea, they are in Meereen. This was a known fact. Given the context of your post, either you were totally clueless as to where Dany forces set sail from, or, more likely, you didn't have a clue where on the map Meereen was when you first made your post. Good try though! Your really grasping at straws here, it's actually quite funny!

 

1. Wow, I said in my previous post, I did not extrapolate it. It was from a book written by a professor of history who is a specialist on this topic. I gave you the link. I actually think you're just dishonest when it comes to an argument. You come up with these lies.

2. Yes but you said no one survived the smoking sea and now you are trying to stumble out of it. Im not gonig to argue about something that is irrelavent. Even if she goes around valyria. Its only a few more days. So theres no point and I don't know if she will or not. Neither do you. 

3. No its not 3600 miles on the map, more lies.

4. Yes you did say slaver ships but you are trying to nitpick for pettyness. Please show me the post where you ''proved'' westeros was far away. If not, again another lie by you. Normally when someone says connect the dots for you, they explain it how the dots are connected. Since you haven;t proven as much, its an impossibility because your argument is dumb. 

I'll connect the dots for you, its not 2 months, its not 1 month, its 2 weeks. God you're thick LOL. - This is you.

5. Lol, you only see context when it suits you. And you again misinterpreet the context of my previous posts

You can't win an argument against someone who is actively dishonest. Anyone else reading this thread would see it is a lot of nonsense, You have never proved that westeros is far away. And if you don't believe me, get a neutral 3rd party to read it. You ignore what doesn't suit you, lie about something I've done and then lie about what you were supposed to have done like proven that westeros was a great distance. I think you're just a troll to be honest. Good luck.

 

Edited by cylonhybrid

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On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 6:21 PM, HokieStone said:

If R+L=J, then Jon has no legitimacy, since he would still be a bastard.  Unless the theory also assumes that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed - Aegon the Conqueror married both his wives, but I don't recall if future Targaryens took multiple wives.

It's unlikely that Jon's a bastard. Lyanna's not about to be a mistress, and when Rhaegar tells Elia that the dragon must have three heads, it's unlikely he meant for the third to be a bastard. The third would have to be a Targaryen, which means a legitimate child. This is supported by two facts: 

1) Why the importance of hiding Jon's heritage? Sure, Robert hates Targaryens, but the importance of hiding his heritage multiplies a hundred fold if Jon is a legitimate Targaryen heir (And we see how Ned reacts when Robert starts talking about killing Targaryen heirs).

2) In the series, Jon's real name is muted out. Lyanna said very little, and yet Ned realized the implications right away. That wouldn't be the case if she said his name was Jon Sand. That WOULD be the case, though, if she said his name was Aemon Targaryen, in which case Ned would understand the implications right away.

In which case, yeah, there's a 99% chance Rhaegar married Lyanna and produced a legitimate heir in Jon, in which case his claim to the Iron Throne is greater than that of Daenerys's.

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:30 AM, blckp said:

bastard of prince has better right than trueborn kid of king? challenge with what? Daenerys could have ended bastardbrawl with one dragon breath , Jon snows little army would disappear in instant if he fights with Dany

You assume that circumstances would remain exactly the same, which again is an unreasonable supposition. For example, Jon is believed to be a dragon rider. So you're assuming it'll be three dragons to zero when it may very likely be 2-to-1, or maybe 1-on-1 based on other circumstances. It may even be 1-to-2 if Bran wargs a third dragon. Or the ice dragon theories might be true and Jon may end up with an ice dragon larger and more powerful than all three of Daenerys's dragons combined. Or the theory that a dragon sleeps beneath Winterfell, either one heating the hot springs or one produced by an egg laid by Vermax, which again would provide Jon with an older and much larger dragon than Daenerys's dragons. Either way, do you think Martin has been setting up a potential confrontation for 20 years only for it to turn out to be a lopsided victory in Daenerys's favor because Jon has no dragons? That's ridiculous.

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1. Wow, I said in my previous post, I did not extrapolate it. It was from a book written by a professor of history who is a specialist on this topic. I gave you the link. I actually think you're just dishonest when it comes to an argument. You come up with these lies.

LOL, that's not even a rebuttal, its a little child whining.

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2. Yes but you said no one survived the smoking sea and now you are trying to stumble out of it. Im not gonig to argue about something that is irrelavent. Even if she goes around valyria. Its only a few more days. So theres no point and I don't know if she will or not. Neither do you. 

Lol, again context escapes you. Yes Tyrion and Jorah barely survived crossing the smoking sea in a small 2 man fishing skiff. Only you would care to take that to show an armada of 300+ galleons could do the same. Pure idiocracy. If she goes around Valyria it is another 800- 1200 miles, making your 2400 mile journey now 3600 miles. Game-set-match. Use your own map :) Another lost argument on your part.

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3. No its not 3600 miles on the map, more lies.

Yes, it is, see above. Please, use your map. another loss on your part.

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4. Yes you did say slaver ships but you are trying to nitpick for pettyness. Please show me the post where you ''proved'' westeros was far away. If not, again another lie by you. Normally when someone says connect the dots for you, they explain it how the dots are connected. Since you haven;t proven as much, its an impossibility because your argument is dumb. 

3600 miles is far away, It cannot be traversed via sailboat in the five days you claim. Hell, even 2400 miles is far away. The loss's keep piling up for you, such a shame, really.

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You can't win an argument against someone who is actively dishonest. Anyone else reading this thread would see it is a lot of nonsense, You have never proved that westeros is far away. And if you don't believe me, get a neutral 3rd party to read it. You ignore what doesn't suit you, lie about something I've done and then lie about what you were supposed to have done like proven that westeros was a great distance. I think you're just a troll to be honest. Good luck.

I have consistently used your own words to show that your arguments are contractions in what you have previously said. See definition of lie here:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie?s=t

Edited by Ice Spider

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18 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

LOL, that's not even a rebuttal, its a little child whining.

Lol, again context escapes you. Yes Tyrion and Jorah barely survived crossing the smoking sea in a small 2 man fishing skiff. Only you would care to take that to show an armada of 300+ galleons could do the same. Pure idiocracy. If she goes around Valyria it is another 800- 1200 miles, making your 2400 mile journey now 3600 miles. Game-set-match. Use your own map :) Another lost argument on your part.

Yes, it is, see above. Please, use your map. another loss on your part.

3600 miles is far away, It cannot be traversed via sailboat in the five days you claim. Hell, even 2400 miles is far away. The loss's keep piling up for you, such a shame, really.

I have consistently used your own words to show that your arguments are contractions in what you have previously said. See definition of lie here:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie?s=t

Lets use this post as an example of your argumentative technique for trolling.

1. You give me a personal insult to make you seem superior (i.e. little child whining) but don't actually address that you were incorrect when you assumed I came up with the estimate. I have explained in twice now in two different posts.

2. You don't actually address that you said NO ONE sails across the smoking sea and comes out alive, even someone on a two man boat is included in no one. Again you insult me again as if I'm the one who made the mistake.That you ask me to do something which is impossible, find  precise example of 350 galleons sailing across the ocean. Obviously that doesn't exist. You have to extrapolate from smaller fleets like Columbas' fleet of three ships. I even got an experts opinion on the average travel time of ships in that era since he was an expert on 15th-16th century sailing but you deliberately keep mis-interpreting to serve your interests. That seems to be a common theme.

3. No, you are in a, no it isn't, yes it is argument. Even if it were 3600 miles, its still 3 weeks. Also Westeros from the wall to Dorne is 3,000 miles. Are you seriously suggesting that she has to travel a distance another 20% larger than the continent of westeros, really? I actually made a mistake. It seems the width of Westeros is 1200 miles as shown here https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/. So it is actually 1200 miles around valyria and and shorter through it. It is then a further 1200-1800 miles to Mereen (2400-3000 in total). I overestimated it the distance. The only way I can think you might be making this mistake is that you are getting the height of Westeros and tracing an arc to intersect mereen. Thats not the true distance for sailing.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, Why would you think it matters? Its still no where near the 2 month estimate you put forth. 

4. Since I have stated 4 or 5 times now not to take 5 days as literal and that its closer to 1.5-3 weeks to Mereen, or that it is only a few days across the narrow sea, I have to conclude that it is deliberate that you keep stating this 5 days mark just for childish annoyance. Because nobody could honestly keep going on about it  who was genuine after I clarified this so many times. And then you insult me again.

5. You have consistently shown that my arguments are contractions? Do you mean contradictions? Because that has not occured, Another technique of yours, You have stated whatever amount of times that you have proven I was incorrect but then thats' not true.Also when you say this, you never explain how you countered my argument or you deliberately use something which I have clarified lots of times is not the case like the 5 days thing you keep mentioning to try and justify yourself. Even in this post.

I'm sorry that I had to resort to demonstrating how your argument is a bit childish but its impossible to hold a grown up argument about someone who argues so illogically with argumentative fallacy with the techniques described above. So I have to show the way in which you argue because its not possible to discuss properly this topic because of this.

No doubt you will attempt to insult me again in the next post or say I'm the one doing all this instead of you. Or come up with some clever way of justifying this and make me look like the bad guy. And your arguments are fine. You'll probably use one the techniques I highlighted above.

 Its not enjoyable and nothing is coming from it. A proper argument doesn't do these kind of things. I was willing to concede on some of your points because I am fair like when you mentioned the war of independence. But you have never admitted you were incorrect about anything including the lack of evidence about Mereens trade or whether people knew of Dany in Westeros. We don't know that.

Its like arguing with an impetuous child, so thats why I had to write this post. It has become simply not possible to hold an actual discussion on the topic. Why the insults from you etc? People usually use personal insults in a discussion if you are trying to hide a weak argument.

 

Edited by cylonhybrid

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using the map you provided, it is 3600 miles to sail from Meereen to Dorne. You cannot go through the smoking sea (another point you were wrong on). Why don't you print the map you posted and plot a course around the valyrian peninsula and measure if for  yourself. Then give it a rest. All throughout the course of this debate you have consistently tried to play word games as a means to try to tell us something you said isn't what you meant. When proven wrong you come up with things like "it doesn't matter" or that's not what I meant" or my favorite "even if that were true".

I have used cold hard facts that have been documented to support my arguments. Documented trips of real voyages that are actually somewhat applicable to the argument at hand. You on the other hand have used one off examples of a single ship, sailing under perfect conditions and then extrapolating that into an armada of 350 ships being able to duplicate that in synchronicity. Good lord.

The closest thing you have to date come to a small victory in this debate is the fact that Jorah and Tyrion did indeed make it across the smoking sea in a small two man fishing skiff. Not a galleon. Even then, it almost cost Jorah his life. Bravo young man Bravo!

lets actually take a closer look at one of your original posts.

1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that. Im sure Dorne also knows about navel warefare also having a naval army and probably highgarden.

Well yes westeros is far away from the bay of dragons. 3600 miles by sail to be exact.

you then went on to say this:

"If every ship holds about 100 people which is what would be expected from ships that size, then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there. Each trip would be 5 days to Westeros and 5 days back. If she had 10 ships, she would need to make 70 trips about 2 years to get her army across. One year if she had 20 ships. 6 months if she had 40 ships, 3 months if she had 60 ships."

So yes, she does need a lot of ships even if Westeros was only a few days away.

It is quite obvious that you are  using  five days travel from the bay of dragons to westeros. as the sum total of the whole trip. Otherwise the whole statement makes absolutely no sense. YOu further go on to say that Dany could not use slave ships, even though the bulk of her fleet came from the slavers. more nonsense.

 

you further went on to say this:

Its quite sensible to sail from Dorne to Slavers bay to ensure her army doesn't delay. I don't know what you are not getting about the logistics of this? Basically, its the equivalent of sailing from Italy to Britain on a modern map. It doesn't take 3 months to do that. That would be a trip from europe to the americas.

As I have shown you on multiple occasions, that trip is actually like sailing from Europe to the Americas, a trip you yourself said took 3 months. The distance is almost identical. Please, your really starting to look foolish. As you can see, YOUR the one that brought up the Europe to the Americas argument, you just didn't like it when it was pointed out just how long that journey actually took. lol

you later go on to try and say Dany would travel across the smoking sea, more nonsense. Long story short, you don't have a clue what your talking about, and it is painfully obvious to everyone.

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1 hour ago, Ice Spider said:

using the map you provided, it is 3600 miles to sail from Meereen to Dorne. You cannot go through the smoking sea (another point you were wrong on). Why don't you print the map you posted and plot a course around the valyrian peninsula and measure if for  yourself. Then give it a rest. All throughout the course of this debate you have consistently tried to play word games as a means to try to tell us something you said isn't what you meant. When proven wrong you come up with things like "it doesn't matter" or that's not what I meant" or my favorite "even if that were true".

I have used cold hard facts that have been documented to support my arguments. Documented trips of real voyages that are actually somewhat applicable to the argument at hand. You on the other hand have used one off examples of a single ship, sailing under perfect conditions and then extrapolating that into an armada of 350 ships being able to duplicate that in synchronicity. Good lord.

The closest thing you have to date come to a small victory in this debate is the fact that Jorah and Tyrion did indeed make it across the smoking sea in a small two man fishing skiff. Not a galleon. Even then, it almost cost Jorah his life. Bravo young man Bravo!

lets actually take a closer look at one of your original posts.

1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that. Im sure Dorne also knows about navel warefare also having a naval army and probably highgarden.

Well yes westeros is far away from the bay of dragons. 3600 miles by sail to be exact.

you then went on to say this:

"If every ship holds about 100 people which is what would be expected from ships that size, then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there. Each trip would be 5 days to Westeros and 5 days back. If she had 10 ships, she would need to make 70 trips about 2 years to get her army across. One year if she had 20 ships. 6 months if she had 40 ships, 3 months if she had 60 ships."

So yes, she does need a lot of ships even if Westeros was only a few days away.

It is quite obvious that you are  using  five days travel from the bay of dragons to westeros. as the sum total of the whole trip. Otherwise the whole statement makes absolutely no sense. YOu further go on to say that Dany could not use slave ships, even though the bulk of her fleet came from the slavers. more nonsense.

 

you further went on to say this:

Its quite sensible to sail from Dorne to Slavers bay to ensure her army doesn't delay. I don't know what you are not getting about the logistics of this? Basically, its the equivalent of sailing from Italy to Britain on a modern map. It doesn't take 3 months to do that. That would be a trip from europe to the americas.

As I have shown you on multiple occasions, that trip is actually like sailing from Europe to the Americas, a trip you yourself said took 3 months. The distance is almost identical. Please, your really starting to look foolish. As you can see, YOUR the one that brought up the Europe to the Americas argument, you just didn't like it when it was pointed out just how long that journey actually took. lol

you later go on to try and say Dany would travel across the smoking sea, more nonsense. Long story short, you don't have a clue what your talking about, and it is painfully obvious to everyone.

Umm, you did precisely what I said you would do in my previous post. Lets read on.

''No doubt you will attempt to insult me again in the next post or say I'm the one doing all this instead of you. Or come up with some clever way of justifying this and make me look like the bad guy. And your arguments are fine. You'll probably use one the techniques I highlighted above. ''

1. Won't admit that the map does not show 3600 miles (Point 3)

2. State you used facts to dispute your case when in fact, you have not. And further have not shown those facts. Furthermore stating I have done something which I have not and I explained twice already to try and justify yourself  ( point 4 and point 5)

3. Insults again. (point 1)

4. Used a post I had used as an example originally. After that point in 3 separate posts I explained it was only a period of time you din't die of a disease or pestilence and then I started explaining the actual length of time having stated 3 times what I meant by 5 days originally. Yet you conveniently ignore this (point 4)

5. You have not shown me on multiple occassions it is like a trip from Europe to America even though you stated it. For one, america is over 4,000 miles away. And you came up with 3600. Even though it really is really somewhere between 2400-3000. Could you show me exactly how it is 3600 miles away? (both point 3 and point 5).

Unless you mean that one time you talked about a trip from England to the US? You know the same thing you are trying to call me out on? Even thought I never did that. That's called hypocrisy. 

6 And then you finish by insulting me (point 1)

Lol, I can't take you seriously anymore. The argumentative fallacies are real. Good luck. Keep deluding yourself that you're never wrong and everyone agrees with you because you're the only one that believes it.

Edited by cylonhybrid

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3 hours ago, cylonhybrid said:

Umm, you did precisely what I said you would do in my previous post. Lets read on.

''No doubt you will attempt to insult me again in the next post or say I'm the one doing all this instead of you. Or come up with some clever way of justifying this and make me look like the bad guy. And your arguments are fine. You'll probably use one the techniques I highlighted above. ''

1. Won't admit that the map does not show 3600 miles (Point 3)

2. State you used facts to dispute your case when in fact, you have not. And further have not shown those facts. Furthermore stating I have done something which I have not and I explained twice already to try and justify yourself  ( point 4 and point 5)

3. Insults again. (point 1)

4. Used a post I had used as an example originally. After that point in 3 separate posts I explained it was only a period of time you din't die of a disease or pestilence and then I started explaining the actual length of time having stated 3 times what I meant by 5 days originally. Yet you conveniently ignore this (point 4)

5. You have not shown me on multiple occassions it is like a trip from Europe to America even though you stated it. For one, america is over 4,000 miles away. And you came up with 3600. Even though it really is really somewhere between 2400-3000. Could you show me exactly how it is 3600 miles away? (both point 3 and point 5).

Unless you mean that one time you talked about a trip from England to the US? You know the same thing you are trying to call me out on? Even thought I never did that. That's called hypocrisy. 

6 And then you finish by insulting me (point 1)

Lol, I can't take you seriously anymore. The argumentative fallacies are real. Good luck. Keep deluding yourself that you're never wrong and everyone agrees with you because you're the only one that believes it.

lol, more crying.

5. You have not shown me on multiple occassions it is like a trip from Europe to America even though you stated it. For one, america is over 4,000 miles away. And you came up with 3600. Even though it really is really somewhere between 2400-3000. Could you show me exactly how it is 3600 miles away? (both point 3 and point 5).

This is a perfect illustration on how you can't get the simplest of facts right.

 I have consistently been using the distance from Plymouth England to Cape Cod, a well documented route.

Fact: The Distance the Mayflower traveled to the new world was 2,750 miles

http://www.rain.org/campinternet/american-history/thanksgiving/thanksgiving-the-voyage-over.html

The distance from Plymouth England to Cape Cod is exactly 3,121 miles.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PLXB_enUS621US621&q=distance+from+Plymouth+England+to+Cape+Cod

It took 66 days. FACT! The journey was made in the 16th century. IN the 16th century, gunpowder was widely in use, in GOT, gun powder has yet to be discovered, making it clear that the story is set in a time frame that predates 16th century technology.

You want proof that Dorne is 3600 miles away from Meereen,  this website does not allow for pictures to be posted, but I will provide a link.

Here is a map that you provided, that I have shown the path that dany must take, and the scale copied and pasted several times to show the distance. In all actuality, 3600 miles is actually understated. Read it and weep.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/world-of-ice-and-fire-world-map-political_zpsjqdqtynt.jpg

How many more "facts" do you want?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ice Spider

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hey ... Spider and Toaster ... err... Hybrid (j/k :-) )... While reading this quite entertaining exchange, I havent picked out any mention of how long it took Victarion Greyjoy to sail to Meeren in the books.  Wouldn't that give some indication of the length/time of the voyage?

I am a bit rusty on that myself.  It took him (with the 100 ships of the Iron Fleet) how long?  About a month?  Two?

And his Fleet was dispersed, and lost up to 1/3 or 1/2 of its ships (or was it 1/4?).  Granted, several likely turned back or gave up, but ...

Thoughts there?

Edited by Thror Baratheon

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On 10/17/2016 at 1:29 PM, cylonhybrid said:

I believe this reasoning is flawed in a few places.

1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that. Im sure Dorne also knows about navel warefare also having a naval army and probably highgarden. 

The only thing I can think of is storms. If JRRM chooses to reflect on our own history, then Danys army is like the Spanish armada of 1588. It was a massive spanish armada that was sent to conquor Britain under Queen Elizabeth I. There was a massive storm and the armada was destroyed, saving britain from invasion that they would have most certainly lost if they had landed. And Britian would have become part of the Spanish empire. 

2. Im sure the logistics of setting up danys army were arranged before she set sail. At the last epside, it was implied that the alliance between Dany and dorne had been going for at least a few weeks. So Im sure they provided maps and arranged things in Dorne for her arrival.

3. The dothraki may not use armour but im sure Dorne and highgarden do. And highgarden has the largest army in westeros. Also highgarden was providing food and provisions for the lannisters army when Robb Stark was around. Im sure Dorne and Highgarden could provide supplies especially since Im sure highgarden will no longer provide those provisions for kings landing anymore. KL population will starve expecially now winter has come. 

 

It is more likely there will be little opposition to Dany until she reaches KL. But with the people starving and no troops since they were also provided by high garden, Cersai will likely use KL as a trojan horse. Have danys army invade it, then blow up the rest of the wild fire since it is really the only resource she has. It would decimate Danys army.

1.  The Narrow Sea ... would be more like the Mediterranean, wouldn't it?

EDIT : Maybe the North Sea.  England to Denmark or Amsterdam?  Hmmm....

  But ... Dany isn't crossing the Narrow Sea.  She is crossing the Summer Sea, at least until she reaches Dorne.

 

2.  Re. the Armada of 1588 ... That did not transport the invasion army from Spain/Portugal to Britain.  Said army was already in Flanders (Belgium/Netherlands) fighting the Dutch.  The Armada was to sail to Flanders, pick up this army, and transport it to Britain. The Armada sailed thru the Channel (west to east), but found no invasion force to pick up and no friendly port to put into. 

EDIT : The Armada ended up trying to sail around Scotland, and got the double slam of said storm(s) _and_ the eastern end of the Gulf Stream current. 

3. Re. the armour vs none ... The Dothraki fight on horseback, in many ways like the Mongols and Steppe horsemen of old.  They could and would just 'run away' from any charge of armored knights.  The Mongols and others, including the Arabs, quite quickly figured out how to fight and consistently defeat western knights in combat.  As did infantry forces like the Swiss (pike blocks) and even the English (archers behind obstacles).

Edit : By 'run away' I mean just keep withdrawing until the heavily laden knights and their huge horses tire and get dispersed.  Then turn around, encircle and attack them.

Edited by Thror Baratheon

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On 10/30/2016 at 8:30 PM, Thor Odinson said:

It's unlikely that Jon's a bastard. Lyanna's not about to be a mistress, and when Rhaegar tells Elia that the dragon must have three heads, it's unlikely he meant for the third to be a bastard. The third would have to be a Targaryen, which means a legitimate child. This is supported by two facts: 

 

1) Why the importance of hiding Jon's heritage? Sure, Robert hates Targaryens, but the importance of hiding his heritage multiplies a hundred fold if Jon is a legitimate Targaryen heir (And we see how Ned reacts when Robert starts talking about killing Targaryen heirs).

2) In the series, Jon's real name is muted out. Lyanna said very little, and yet Ned realized the implications right away. That wouldn't be the case if she said his name was Jon Sand. That WOULD be the case, though, if she said his name was Aemon Targaryen, in which case Ned would understand the implications right away.

In which case, yeah, there's a 99% chance Rhaegar married Lyanna and produced a legitimate heir in Jon, in which case his claim to the Iron Throne is greater than that of Daenerys's.

You assume that circumstances would remain exactly the same, which again is an unreasonable supposition. For example, Jon is believed to be a dragon rider. So you're assuming it'll be three dragons to zero when it may very likely be 2-to-1, or maybe 1-on-1 based on other circumstances. It may even be 1-to-2 if Bran wargs a third dragon. Or the ice dragon theories might be true and Jon may end up with an ice dragon larger and more powerful than all three of Daenerys's dragons combined. Or the theory that a dragon sleeps beneath Winterfell, either one heating the hot springs or one produced by an egg laid by Vermax, which again would provide Jon with an older and much larger dragon than Daenerys's dragons. Either way, do you think Martin has been setting up a potential confrontation for 20 years only for it to turn out to be a lopsided victory in Daenerys's favor because Jon has no dragons? That's ridiculous.

Son of Odin,

I do not believe that being a bastard would be relevant.  A Targ is a targ is a targ.  This is borne out by Jon being 'elected' or acclaimed King of the North, bastard or no.  

1) The importance of hiding Jon's heritage is because Robert would have Jon killed if it came out that Jon was a Targ.  Robert said as much.  And, unfortunately and sadly, it makes political sense for Robert to do this.  Again, come back to Jon becoming King of the North.

EDIT : For those who view 'legitimacy' as important, a bastard son's claim could very well be more 'legitimate' than Robert's.  Robert did have Targ blood, but a generation or more removed, and maybe via a daughter, not a son.

2) myself, I think Jon's given name is Aegon.  (Which fits in with the books and their account of what Dany sees in that tower in Qarth re. Rheagar and one of his sons).  Aegon or Aemon... your point here still stands -- such a name is quite obviously Valyrian and Targaryen.

 

Rhaegar could very well have married Lyanna.  (Which would be 'legitimate' by the Targaryens'  Valyrian standards re. polygamy).   But, at the end of the day, that does not really matter.

 

Ignoring or skipping the dragon stuff.  Tho i expect the 3 dragonriders to be: Dany [Drogon], Jon [Rheagal ?], and Tyrion [Viseryion].

And I expect Jon and his aunt to marry as part of a Dynastic Alliance/Union agreement.   Not fight each other.

Edited by Thror Baratheon

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