Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[J. Stargaryen]

10 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

It's Arianne's remark "she is an old woman now" that really kills it for me, Ashara wouldn't be that old at this point. The fact that it's possible is enough of a clue for some people, not for me, George's style is to use similar phrases and corresponding wording when he wants the reader to look deeper at something that isn't plainly written..

We don't know exactly when Ashara was born, the wiki gives a range of 260-269. But if we assume she is a year or two younger than Ned (b. 263), which seems reasonable, she would be 11-12 years older than Arianne (b. 276), and in her mid-30s by AFfC. Not old by our standards certainly, but not young by middle age/Westerosi standards either.

[OuttaOldtown]

9 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

We don't know exactly when Ashara was born, the wiki gives a range of 260-269. But if we assume she is a year or two younger than Ned (b. 263), which seems reasonable, she would be 11-12 years older than Arianne (b. 276), and in her mid-30s by AFfC. Not old by our standards certainly, but not young by middle age/Westerosi standards either.

I've considered that J, my problem is Arianne says that she remembers Lewyn first, that he was tall as a tower and tickled her. But when it comes to the paramour she only says she's an old woman now and that others say she was once a rare beauty. It seems strange she wouldn't remember her as a young woman first hand if she were that young when Arianne was a girl.. 

Im not dismissing your points by any means, I've read many of your posts & theories and highly respect your opinions..

[Voice]

7 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

The method GRRM uses to hide RLJ -- Ned as Jon's father -- is what allows him to place the otherwise obvious RLJ clues throughout the text. Because for the majority of readers, it doesn't even occur to them that Ned isn't Jon's father. That's the trick.

Well now who seems capable of reading minds? LOL

You may well be right. That might be the trick. But unless we can read GRRM's mind, we cannot know that is indeed the trick.

I thought you were arguing just a few posts ago that RLJ couldn't be a red herring because the clues weren't obvious enough. Now, you are saying they are obvious, only obfuscated by Ned as Jon's father.

I don't really disagree with that, but it does muddy the water a bit. If both are obvious, both can be red herrings.

 

7 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

No, I don't. I've just seen lots of people say they didn't pick it up on their first read. As I said above, the trick with RLJ is not in the subtlety of the clues, but in the distraction GRRM uses.

Again, I'm going to note that in order for not-RLJ to be true, for all practical purposes it is a necessary condition that RLJ be very obvious, so that it can function as a red herring. And I think some of you have convinced yourselves that this is the case, because you need it to be.

Sure, I get it. Not subtle, it's plausible because of distraction. Seems an odd justification, but it does make sense. It doesn't at all negate my original point, that avid fantasy readers have been trained to look for and find hidden heirs/princes/kings, and that RLJ fulfills that need in an obvious fashion.

Certainly, some readers convince themselves of cases they prefer. I am convinced of nothing. I don't need for RLJ to be a red herring. I, again, would quite like for RLJ to be true. But this isn't really the thread for that discussion. We're here to discuss Ashara's possible role in the mysteries of royal children.

 

7 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Where is it stated that Jon is darker than Edric? I found this passage from ASoS, Arya VI:

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

It doesn't say anything about his complexion. In fact, of the four traits Arya mentions, she only contradicts two of them-- the hair and the eyes. This makes me think it's at least possible that he had a swarthy complexion. Is there another passage describing his appearance, specifically his complexion?

If that's the case, nobody ever mentions it in the series, despite at least a couple of people commenting on Jon's Stark appearance.

Yeah, it must be one of those.

Edric may well have been swarthy. I am making no claims as to that.

You merely suggested that it was "completely unsupported" to say that Jon looks Dornish.

I pointed out that he is Dornish-looking enough to pass for Ashara's son, whose nephew may actually be fairer, and is darker than even Ned in certain respects. We have no Starks with nearly-black eyes. And, generally speaking, Dornishmen are dark where northerners are fair.

Obviously, Jon looks like a Stark. He is recognized as a Stark by Craster.

But, he is a rather dark version of a half-Stark compared to his siblings/cousins.

[OuttaOldtown]

21 minutes ago, Voice said:

Well now who seems capable of reading minds? LOL

You may well be right. That might be the trick. But unless we can read GRRM's mind, we cannot know that is indeed the trick.

I thought you were arguing just a few posts ago that RLJ couldn't be a red herring because the clues weren't obvious enough. Now, you are saying they are obvious, only obfuscated by Ned as Jon's father.

I don't really disagree with that, but it does muddy the water a bit. If both are obvious, both can be red herrings.

 

Sure, I get it. Not subtle, it's plausible because of distraction. Seems an odd justification, but it does make sense. It doesn't at all negate my original point, that avid fantasy readers have been trained to look for and find hidden heirs/princes/kings, and that RLJ fulfills that need in an obvious fashion.

Certainly, some readers convince themselves of cases they prefer. I am convinced of nothing. I don't need for RLJ to be a red herring. I, again, would quite like for RLJ to be true. But this isn't really the thread for that discussion. We're here to discuss Ashara's possible role in the mysteries of royal children.

 

Edric may well have been swarthy. I am making no claims as to that.

You merely suggested that it was "completely unsupported" to say that Jon looks Dornish.

I pointed out that he is Dornish-looking enough to pass for Ashara's son, whose nephew may actually be fairer, and is darker than even Ned in certain respects. We have no Starks with nearly-black eyes. And, generally speaking, Dornishmen are dark where northerners are fair.

Obviously, Jon looks like a Stark. He is recognized as a Stark by Craster.

But, he is a rather dark version of a half-Stark compared to his siblings/cousins.

Where does it say he's a darker version of either Ned or Arya? Those are the two living Stark at the start of the series who he is continually compared with as far as looks. Tyrion remarks "Yes. I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.". No where in the text does it does anyone refer to him as swarthy or having any kind of Dornish feature. And in truth no Dayne's are ever described as having a salty Dornish look, quite the contrary, it seems like you're grasping at straws..

[Voice]

29 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Where does it say he's a darker version of either Ned or Arya?

Ned and Arya do not have nearly-black eyes.

[OuttaOldtown]

24 minutes ago, Voice said:

Ned and Arya do not have nearly-black eyes.

Ashara's eyes are violet like Dany's, not the dark indigo like Rhaegar's. If you go on the eyes it makes a better case for R+L=J. Seems like you won't be swayed so I'll just ask, if Ashara is Jon's mother what answers does it provide you? All I have us questions, no answers

[Voice]

16 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Ashara's eyes are violet like Dany's, not the dark indigo like Rhaegar's. If you go on the eyes it makes a better case for R+L=J. Seems like you won't be swayed so I'll just ask, if Ashara is Jon's mother what answers does it provide you? All I have us questions, no answers

 

I think you've mistaken me. It is not a matter of swaying me. I enjoy the conversation itself, and only frown upon unfounded obstructions of it.

I am not making a case for Ashara as Jon's mother. Catelyn already did that in her second pov chapter. She needs no help from me.

What I am doing, or at least, attempting to do, is discuss the OP, which suggests the possibility that Ashara had a child:

 

On 7/17/2016 at 6:02 AM, MizasterJ said:

Looking at the events described in the tale of the laughing knight and the tourney of harrenhal as well as the Tower of Joy scene: I want to analyze and possibly solve the Mysteries of Ashara Dayne, her death, her child, her allegiance,her lovers?

 

The idea that Ashara was" dishonored" is along the lines that GRRM is once again using the Unreliable Narrator trope. Why? because it goes along too well with her suicide. people that don't know the details logically create speculation to fill in the blanks of rumors they've heard. If the dead baby rumors were spread intentionally to mislead, then Im sure the suicide rumors and dishonored rumors were also intended to mislead. Dishonored implies rape, yet I think this is more along the lines of young adults fooling around and falling in love. However, I'm not completely going to rule out the possibility of rape. Rape is a common theme in ASOIAF. We have the "bear & the maiden fair" which is kind of a song about how "Rape" can transform into love.

Im quite certain that Ashara did indeed have a child. Also why would the author make a point to tell us this if the child died? Certainly not just to show us that Ashara was dishonored, but that there was something more at play, most likely a love triangle. Im 90% certain that Ned & Ashara were in love but that they knew they couldn't be together, because of obligations. Obligations such as Ned needing to marry Cat, and Ashara possibly needing to bare a child for Rhaegar & Elia. We have strong reason to believe that Rhaegar was trying to have a 3rd child who he believed would be The prince who was promised. No doubt his close friends Arthur Dayne, and Jon Connington would assist in finding him the perfect mother for this child to be. Also, Rheagar's wife Elia was close with Ashara.

I have no doubt that the origin of the child is a key piece of this whole story involving Ned, Lyanna,Rheagar, Ashara.Arthur and probably even Jon Connington and TPWWP. I think there is at least a 85% chance that Young Griff is Ashara's child, but is Rheagar the father, or Connington, or Ned? We may never know for certain as GRRM and many other authors prefer to keep things open to interpretation.

 

GRRM loves to play at mysteries. Most of the series is a play on the confusion of succession in feudalism, and the idea that inheritance law is sloppy at best. George is no doubt playing on the mystery "which one is the rightful king" once again. I believe there are at least 2 sons of Rheagar walking around alive and well within our story. Thus we will have to settle it with another "dance of dragons".

 

I am 95% certain that GRRM is setting up another DoDs and it will happen probably in the Winds of Winter. However, it most likely won't be because people think Jon Snow is Rheagar's son, I doubt that info will ever become public knowledge to the people of Planetos. This DoDs will feature Daenerys v Young Griff, which may very well lead to us fans discovering that they were both born in Dorne.

 

In conclusion: I believe young griff is Ashara's child. There's a strong chance that he is also Rheagar's son. I believe Ashara knew about Rheagar's other child w/ Lyanna (probably Jon) as many people were in on this grand scheme by Rheagar to fulfill the Prince who was promised prophecy. Ned & Ashara worked out a deal to each raise 1 child secretly, as if they were the result of their love for each other. Also keeping their heritage secret because if they knew each other had a claim to the throne war would break out. Finally, having said all this, I believe it lends a great amount of credence to the idea that the sword Dawn = Lightbringer, and that the son of Rheagar and /or Ashara will inherit it.

 

 

If you'd rather discuss Rhaegar's eye color and how many answers he provides, that seems like a conversation for another thread.

[J. Stargaryen]

20 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I've considered that J, my problem is Arianne says that she remembers Lewyn first, that he was tall as a tower and tickled her. But when it comes to the paramour she only says she's an old woman now and that others say she was once a rare beauty. It seems strange she wouldn't remember her as a young woman first hand if she were that young when Arianne was a girl.. 

Im not dismissing your points by any means, I've read many of your posts & theories and highly respect your opinions..

Arianne tells Arys that men said Lewyn's paramour was a rare beauty in her youth, which indicates to me that she didn't know her, at least back then. She's relaying what others have told her.

23 minutes ago, Voice said:

Well now who seems capable of reading minds? LOL

You may well be right. That might be the trick. But unless we can read GRRM's mind, we cannot know that is indeed the trick.

I don't need to be able to read GRRM's mind to identify his method here. We are told that Ned is Jon's father, but the identity of his mother is a mystery. The mystery's answers gives us its twist. That Ned is not the father, as we had been told.

23 minutes ago, Voice said:

I thought you were arguing just a few posts ago that RLJ couldn't be a red herring because the clues weren't obvious enough. Now, you are saying they are obvious, only obfuscated by Ned as Jon's father.

I don't really disagree with that, but it does muddy the water a bit. If both are obvious, both can be red herrings.

I'm saying that once you realize something fishy is going, RLJ becomes obvious. I'm also saying that the majority of readers don't realize anything fishy is going on to begin with.

31 minutes ago, Voice said:

Edric may well have been swarthy. I am making no claims as to that.

If you are uncertain about Edric's complexion, how can you be certain that Jon is darker, as you claimed up thread?

33 minutes ago, Voice said:

You merely suggested that it was "completely unsupported" to say that Jon looks Dornish.

Yes. I stand by that.

33 minutes ago, Voice said:

I pointed out that he is Dornish-looking enough to pass for Ashara's son, whose nephew may actually be fairer, and is darker than even Ned in certain respects. We have no Starks with nearly-black eyes. And, generally speaking, Dornishmen are dark where northerners are fair.

You pointed out something that no one is saying (Dornish looking) or doing (passing him off as Ashara's son).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think if we are going to propose anyone is in fact Ashara's child we have to look at the evidence. Not simply make up what if scenario's. 

What evidence is there, objectively without stretching and supposing? 

 

[OuttaOldtown]

22 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

I think you've mistaken me. It is not a matter of swaying me. I enjoy the conversation itself, and only frown upon unfounded obstructions of it.

I am not making a case for Ashara as Jon's mother. Catelyn already did that in her second pov chapter. She needs no help from me.

What I am doing, or at least, attempting to do, is discuss the OP, which suggests the possibility that Ashara had a child:

 

 

If you'd rather discuss Rhaegar's eye color and how many answers he provides, that seems like a conversation for another thread.

I don't buy into that theory at all, the two people closely associated with fAegon are Illyrio and Varys and are conveniently absent from it. I see nothing but holes..

[OuttaOldtown]

4 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Arianne tells Arys that men said Lewyn's paramour was a rare beauty in her youth, which indicates to me that she didn't know her, at least back then. She's relaying what others have told her.

It tells me she's a good deal older than Ashara would be and given that Lewyn is her great uncle it's not a stretch to believe he was older than Doran. At 23 years-old  Arianne is not likely to refer to anyone as old when at an age which women in the story are still viewed as attractive. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This is the major issue with Ashara & Lewyn, the chances are very probable that he would be if alive now in his late 60's or early 70's. We know Doran's mother was the elder, as she inherited, and with Doran currently at 52 iirc, that would place her sibling at roughly 15 - 20 years older than him. And that means Ashara was knocking uglies with a man in his 50's when she was Elia's lady in waiting. Not saying it's impossible, but it is improbable. 

I also feel that it is a huge stretch to think Arrianne at 23 would see Ashara as an Old lady who'd lost her looks to the extent that she had to rely on others opinions of her former glory. A woman who was beautiful in her teens and twenties will still be beautiful in her 30's and 40's. The way Arrianne thinks of Lewyn's paramour seems she is more of an age with Lewyn himself and currently in her 60's at least. 

[Voice]

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I don't buy into that theory at all, the two people closely associated with fAegon are Illyrio and Varys and are conveniently absent from it. I see nothing but holes..

Duly noted, but it seems rude to not discuss the OP.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I'm not aware of this rule, nowhere is it stated that Dyanna had the dark features of a salty Dornish..

The Daynes don't have those features. They're known for purple eyes and either silver-gold or dark hair. And they are known to be of the Stony Dornish type with mostly First Men and Andal blood. 

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

well, we know Targ has this rule: 

a targ and a non-targ woman's first child must follow the look of mom. 

such as: rhaenys (daughter of rhaegar), jon snow, prince baelor, possibly tyrion, etc. 

That's more a thing of basic genetics, but not a rule. It just often happens that a first-born son will take after the mother, and a first-born daughter will take after the father. It's not anywhere near 100% accurate.

Tyrion's features are mixed so he's not really the best example to use no matter who his parents are.

I looked into this to see if it holds water and it seems probable.

Aenys I married a Velaryon. Maegor had no living children.Aegon and Jaehaerys I (sons of Aenys I) married their sisters. So there's no help for the discussion in that info. Jaehaerys' son Aemon married Jocelyn Baratheon, herself half Targ. Their only child had the Targ looks. Jaehaerys' son Baelon married his sister. No help. No info on his youngest brother Aegon. Baelon's son Viserys I married Aemma Arryn, herself half Targ. Rhaenyra had the Targ looks.

Our first really good possibility is Viserys I's second wife Alicent Hightower. Their first child Aegon II had the Targ looks. He married his sister Helaena, no help (note that all of Viserys' children with Alicent had the Targ look). Viserys I's brother Daemon married a Royce (no children), a Velaryon (no help), and Rhaenyra (no help). Aegon III married a Velaryon. His brother Viserys II married a Rogare of Lys, who had Valyrian features. 

Aegon IV. Now here was a man who could help us a great deal. His children with his wife looked like Targs of course, but let's look at the known mistresses and their children. Mistress 1 was Falena Stokeworth. He didn't acknowledge any of them, but it's rumored that at least her daughter Jeyne Lothston was his. Jeyne became his mistress later. No description of Jeyne but a picture of her included in The World of Ice and Fire has blonde hair and possibly purple eyes. Can't really tell, but it reminds me of Rhaenyra in her prime. But her mother apparently also had the same hair, per another picture from TWOIAF.

Mistress 2 was a smith's wife who gave him four daughters: Alysanne, Lily, Willow, and Rosey. All four of her daughters were given to the faith by Prince Viserys when he found out what Aegon had been up to. No descriptions on their appearance.

Mistress 3 was Lady Casella Vaith, a hostage Daeron I brought back from Dorne. No children.

Mistress 4 was Belegere Otherys, the black pearl of Braavos, and captain of the Widow Wind. Three children. Bellanora, Narha, and Baelerion. Paternity is doubted though as Belegere was a courtesan and was not exclusive to Aegon during the ten years of their affair. No descriptions.

Mistress 5 was Barba Bracken, a buxom, dark-haired lady. Their son Aegor had purple eyes, but his mother's dark hair.*

Next we have Mistress 6, Melissa Blackwood, who gave Aegon three children: Mya, Gwenys, and Brynden (aka Bloodraven). No descriptions of the girls, and we all know what Bloodraven looked like. Interesting note though: in Mya and Gwenys' wiki articles, Aegon's legitimizing all of his bastards born of noblewomen is mentioned as is the term Great Bastards. According to the picture in The World of Ice and Fire, Missy had dark hair.

Mistress 7 takes us back to House Bracken and Barba's little sister Bethany. No children, as Bethany was caught in an affair with KG Ser Terrance Toyne and both were executed, along with Bethany's father. No children.

Mistress 8, Jeyne Lothston, left court along with her entire family when Aegon IV gave her a pox he'd caught from whores he visited after Bethany Bracken's execution. No children.

Mistress 9, Serenei of Lys. Being Lysene she had Valyrian features, and their daughter Sheira did as well with the added oddity of heterochromia. It's interesting that one of Sheira's eyes was blue and the other green, no purple. But that's not really an indicator of note as there were Targaryens whose eyes were blue (Good Queen Alysanne, for example).

Now we're back to legitimate Targs with Daeron II's marriage to Mariah Martell. Their oldest son Baelor Breakspear* did indeed have the Martell looks with dark hair and eyes. Don't know if the eyes are dark purple or dark something else. Baelor married Jena Dondarrion. If Beric is any indication, the Dondarrions tend to be on the fair side, with red-gold hair.

Baelor and Jena's sons were Valarr and Matarys. Valarr took after his father with brown hair that had a streak of silver in it, and his eyes were blue. Valarr's children by Kiera of Tyrosh were stillborn twins. No descriptions given. Matarys has no description given; he had no children.

Aerys I had the typical Targ looks. He married Aelinor Penrose but they had no children.

Rhaegel has no description. His twins Aelor and Aelora, and their younger sister Daenora have no descriptions given. Their mother was Alys Arryn, who would likely have been blonde.

Maekar had the Targ look. Maekar of course married Dyanna Dayne. No description of her is given. Maekar's children are Daeron, Aerion, Aemon, Daella, Aegon, and Rhae.

Daeron the Drunken had sandy-brown hair and a blonde beard. No word on his eyes. His skin is described as sallow.  He married his cousin Valarr's widow and their daughter Vaella has no physical description. She was "sweet, but simple-minded."

Aerion was all Targ in appearance. He wed his uncle Rhaegel's daughter Daenora (no description). Their son Maegor has no description but was apparently named by his father. Don't know if Maegor ever married.

Maester Aemon's appearance is described only from the time we meet him in the Night's Watch. No telling what color hair or eyes he had, but his skin is fair.

No description on Daella. Fan art on the wiki has her looking like a standard Targ. Same thing for Rhae.

Aegon V had the Targ look. He married Betha Blackwood (dark hair and eyes). Their children were Duncan, Jaehaerys II, Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle.

Duncan the Small had no given description but a picture from TWOIAF shows him with his mother's dark hair. Daeron never married.

Jaehaerys had the Targ looks and married his sister Shaera, against their parents' wishes. The two of them continue the line with Targ looking children who were forced to wed each other and have Targ looking children. 

Our final example is Rhaegar. Rhaegar's first child by his first wife took after her side of the family. Rhaenys*. Aegon then looked like Rhaegar. Lyanna's son Jon* has the Stark look, but may have very dark purple eyes. We're still awaiting canon confirmation that Jon is Rhaegar's but it's a pretty safe bet.

So we've got 7 Targ men having 7 firstborn children with non-Targ and non-Valyrian women. And from them we have 4 definite "take after mother" kids, 1 probably but not proven yet, and 1 maybe (Daeron the Drunken). If we had more of them with descriptions it would shed a great deal more light on the subject but at the moment the numbers are rather in favor of purple-eyes' suggestion, being 5 to 2. However, this is a very small sample so I'd hesitate to call it a "rule" of Targ genetics. The fact is that there have been too few Targaryen wives who lacked Valyrian features to really test the theory.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Ned and Arya do not have nearly-black eyes.

Ashara is of the Stony Dornish variety anyway so her skin would have been fair. No child would have to look "Dornish" to be hers.

[OuttaOldtown]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think if we are going to propose anyone is in fact Ashara's child we have to look at the evidence. Not simply make up what if scenario's. 

What evidence is there, objectively without stretching and supposing? 

 

Amen to that..

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Duly noted, but it seems rude to not discuss the OP.

Any theory presented with no quotes from the books is a questionable one, but it's understandable since Ned doesn't think of her once in his POVs & nor does JonCon in his. No one ever suspects she or her child are alive, so for me the mystery is what were the reasons for killing herself and who was the father of the stillborn child, Surely losing the child and her brother are pretty clear reason. If it turns out she loved Ned then it's possible that his marriage to Cat, leaving her in Winterfell with child and arriving at Starfall with his 'bastard' would be others, if she loved Brandon then you can add his death to her reasons. Yet I've never read a single theory that could give a valid reason why she would need to fake her death..

[Voice]

50 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Any theory presented with no quotes from the books is a questionable one, but it's understandable since Ned doesn't think of her once in his POVs & nor does JonCon in his. No one ever suspects she or her child are alive, so for me the mystery is what were the reasons for killing herself and who was the father of the stillborn child, Surely losing the child and her brother are pretty clear reason. If it turns out she loved Ned then it's possible that his marriage to Cat, leaving her in Winterfell with child and arriving at Starfall with his 'bastard' would be others, if she loved Brandon then you can add his death to her reasons. Yet I've never read a single theory that could give a valid reason why she would need to fake her death..

That seems an odd approach to this person's thread and ideas, but to each his own. I prefer to have an open mind about this kind of stuff and hear what folks have to say.

Regarding the bold, that simply isn't true. Several characters suspect Ashara's child is alive (Catelyn and Cersei).

Again, this is why it is better to have an open mind when someone shares an idea. When we judge every new perspective with our own bias, mistakes can happen. If we instead listen, we might find something new. Just my two coppers.

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Again, this is why it is better to have an open mind when someone shares an idea. When we judge every new perspective with our own bias, mistakes can happen. If we instead listen, we might find something new. Just my two coppers.

It's one thing to have an open mind.  But there are too many theories based on nothing at all in the text and wishful thinking by the readers.  I can waste time reading them, note the lack of evidence and move on, but I'm not obliged to acknowledge they are valid theories just because somebody else wants them to be true.

[Voice]

1 minute ago, maudisdottir said:

It's one thing to have an open mind.  But there are too many theories based on nothing at all in the text and wishful thinking by the readers.  I can waste time reading them, note the lack of evidence and move on, but I'm not obliged to acknowledge they are valid theories just because somebody else wants them to be true.

As is your right m'lady.

But if you're going to take the time to read and comment on another persons ideas, or another person responding to those ideas, why not attempt to understand them before the dismissal?

Again, to each her own. Some find such dialogue rewarding. Some do not. And what are the forums for, if not to waste time while enjoying new dialogue?

As I pointed out to @OuttaOldtown, you might learn something new... the premise of this OP isn't "based on nothing", if one remembers that Catelyn and Cersei both suspect that Ashara's child is alive.

[J. Stargaryen]

 

6 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

It tells me she's a good deal older than Ashara would be and given that Lewyn is her great uncle it's not a stretch to believe he was older than Doran. At 23 years-old  Arianne is not likely to refer to anyone as old when at an age which women in the story are still viewed as attractive. 

How do you know?

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is the major issue with Ashara & Lewyn, the chances are very probable that he would be if alive now in his late 60's or early 70's. We know Doran's mother was the elder, as she inherited, and with Doran currently at 52 iirc, that would place her sibling at roughly 15 - 20 years older than him. And that means Ashara was knocking uglies with a man in his 50's when she was Elia's lady in waiting. Not saying it's impossible, but it is improbable.

Kind of like how Jon's aunt Dany is 15-20 years older than he is?

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I also feel that it is a huge stretch to think Arrianne at 23 would see Ashara as an Old lady who'd lost her looks to the extent that she had to rely on others opinions of her former glory. A woman who was beautiful in her teens and twenties will still be beautiful in her 30's and 40's. The way Arrianne thinks of Lewyn's paramour seems she is more of an age with Lewyn himself and currently in her 60's at least. 

For a certainty? Because I'm in my mid-30s, and based on my peers I can tell you that is not always the case. Not nearly. Having good bone structure, or nice features, does not stop the clock.

---

Listen, I agree that the line from Arianne would seem to make Ashara an unlikely candidate. I've always said so. But there's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting L+A. Briefly:

They're both Dornish characters with secret lovers. A fact which is mentioned on multiple occasions, in both cases. In ASoS, Arya has a long conversation about Ashara with Edric. Then in AFfC, she hears Dareon singing about a woman throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died. Now, there are two women in the series who supposedly threw themselves from towers; Bael's Stark girl, and Ashara. Well, Bael was no prince, but two princes did die on the Trident, which is shortly before Ashara was said to have jumped from the Palestone Tower.

In ADwD, Barristan thinks about both Lewyn and Ashara. How the former had a paramour, and how he loved the latter. But no good could come of that, because he was a KG. There is great potential for irony here.

In TWoIaF it says that Lewyn came to court with Elia, who would have been accompanied by her handmaidens. So, two Dornish characters, who both had secret lovers arrive at court at the same time. Lewyn becomes one of Rhaegar's most trusted allies, meaning he probably would have spent a good deal of time at Dragonstone, where Elia and her handmaidens lived. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Lewyn was assigned to Elia as part of the marriage pact. Seems reasonable, right?

Well, if Lewyn became a KG at the same time as he came to court with Elia, and he had a paramour while he was a KG... do I need to spell it out? Two Dornish characters with secret lovers who were in the same place at the same time.

Again, I say the line from Arianne is not a great fit for Ashara. Especially at first blush. But there's a good circumstantial case to be made for L+A, so maybe that line is not as straightforward as it appears. Would that be such a huge shock coming from an author who has repeatedly tried to deceive us?