Why didn't Tywin allow Tyrion to go with Gerion?

[dariopatke]

So uncle Gerion announced to go to Valirya and find Brothroar and Tyrion liked this idea. He asked Tywin to go, but didnt allow him to go because it was "fool's quest", but isnt this perfect way to get rid of unwanted son?

It may be a fools quest, but honorable. Gerion and Tyrion can be seen as brave people who go to take back something that was theirs and lost long ago. There was low chances of that plan to succed so Tyrion would be out of picture. Worst case scenario, he gets Valiryan blade he desperately wanted.

[CJ McLannister]

Tywin never actually wanted to kill Tyrion.  If he did, there was ample opportunity.  Maybe he was afraid Tyrion would shame the family if he was seen around Essos.  Maybe he was worried that he might actually succeed and make Tywin look bad.  Or maybe he always meant to keep Tyrion close and give him important (though not too important) positions in support of the family.

[devilish]

Tywin wanted to keep all options open. Tyrion was what separated Aerys from having the right in choosing his heir. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Tywin never actually wanted to kill Tyrion.  If he did, there was ample opportunity.  Maybe he was afraid Tyrion would shame the family if he was seen around Essos.  Maybe he was worried that he might actually succeed and make Tywin look bad.  Or maybe he always meant to keep Tyrion close and give him important (though not too important) positions in support of the family.

This... and well, plot. 

[Arya_Stupid!]

30 minutes ago, devilish said:

Tywin wanted to keep all options open. Tyrion was what separated Aerys from having the right in choosing his heir. 

That's a good point devilish. Do we know what year that Gerion left for Essos, in relation to the Sack of King's Landing and Aerys' death? If Gerion didn't leave until afterwards, then it may just be that Tywin wanted to control every aspect of his 'Legacy', including his children's ambitions. Which to be fair, sounds like Tywin.

[dariopatke]

23 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Tywin never actually wanted to kill Tyrion.  If he did, there was ample opportunity.  Maybe he was afraid Tyrion would shame the family if he was seen around Essos.  Maybe he was worried that he might actually succeed and make Tywin look bad.  Or maybe he always meant to keep Tyrion close and give him important (though not too important) positions in support of the family.

Then why put him the worst place at Green Fork where he was supposed to lose?

Why send him to KL, the most dangerous place at the beginning of CoK? Yes, he needed a Hand there, but Kevan can (and did) just as good job.

He won't shame family if he orders Gerion to watch him closely or since Gerion isn't the most reliable bribe sailors.

If he succeded he was a sword and actually may have a worthy heir in his eyes, or at least acceptable. Make Tywin look bad? Since when he cares about it (his treatment of Tyrion was enough to make him look bad in eyes of those who want to see him bad and Tyrions success wont change mind of those who only look good in Tywin-fe Kevan) or since when anyone questions him?

[No One of Importance]

21 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

That's a good point devilish. Do we know what year that Gerion left for Essos, in relation to the Sack of King's Landing and Aerys' death? If Gerion didn't leave until afterwards, then it may just be that Tywin wanted to control every aspect of his 'Legacy', including his children's ambitions. Which to be fair, sounds like Tywin.

Apparently not until quite some time after (291 AC): http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brightroar

[Grey Firewyrm]

I think Tywin is split between how he feels for Tyrion. On one hand he is is son. Then there is the shame factor.

I tend to see Tywins' actions as allowing Tyrion to make his own way although there are always a bias of risk factors which he always seems to overcome. I think Tywin is proud of his son and is secretly intrigued to see exactly how far Tyrion can go. Packing him of to Valyria would be the easy option. Not very noble.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

So uncle Gerion announced to go to Valirya and find Brothroar and Tyrion liked this idea. He asked Tywin to go, but didnt allow him to go because it was "fool's quest", but isnt this perfect way to get rid of unwanted son?

 

It was a fools quest, as evidenced by Gerion never returning just like it was for their ancestor King Tommen.

Tywin did not want rid of Tyrion, if he had then Tyrion would have disappeared long ago.

 

33 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Then why put him the worst place at Green Fork where he was supposed to lose?

He wasn't supposed to lose. The Mountain was in charge of the Vanguard and Tywin was not trying to have him killed (nor was he killed). Tyrion, with the squire given to him by his father, the sellsword bodyguard paid with his fathers money and 300 odd Clansmen under his command should have been safe. It was unlikely that his life was in danger.

Now even with all that, you may need to reread that chapter to see the sequence of events what actually happened.

• Tywin offered him other command positions which Tyrion refused
• Tyrion tells his father the price he has arranged for the Mountain Clan members
• Tywin tells them they can wait to collect it from the Rock or have it now if they help him fight Robb
• they agree only as long as the half man fights with them
• later on Tywin offers Tyrion the chance to guard the baggage train, he refuses.

 

33 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Why send him to KL, the most dangerous place at the beginning of CoK? Yes, he needed a Hand there, but Kevan can (and did) just as good job.

eh? Staying with the Lannister army would have been just as dangerous. There was a war going on, either Tyrion goes to the capital or stays in the battlefield (being sent home to Casterly Rock would have been humiliating for Tyrion or any noble). Both would have been dangerous.  Tyrion was given a huge escort to get to Kings Landing, far far greater than the escort Robb gave his own mother to visit Renly and Stannis.

 

[No One of Importance]

50 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

 

Why send him to KL, the most dangerous place at the beginning of CoK? Yes, he needed a Hand there, but Kevan can (and did) just as good job.

 

He still needs Kevan's military expertise in the field.

[Raisin' Bran]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It was a fools quest, as evidenced by Gerion never returning just like it was for their ancestor King Tommen.

Tywin did not want rid of Tyrion, if he had then Tyrion would have disappeared long ago.

 

He wasn't supposed to lose. The Mountain was in charge of the Vanguard and Tywin was not trying to have him killed (nor was he killed). Tyrion, with the squire given to him by his father, the sellsword bodyguard paid with his fathers money and 300 odd Clansmen under his command should have been safe. It was unlikely that his life was in danger.

Now even with all that, you may need to reread that chapter to see the sequence of events what actually happened.

• Tywin offered him other command positions which Tyrion refused
• Tyrion tells his father the price he has arranged for the Mountain Clan members
• Tywin tells them they can wait to collect it from the Rock or have it now if they help him fight Robb
• they agree only as long as the half man fights with them
• later on Tywin offers Tyrion the chance to guard the baggage train, he refuses.

eh? Staying with the Lannister army would have been just as dangerous. There was a war going on, either Tyrion goes to the capital or stays in the battlefield (being sent home to Casterly Rock would have been humiliating for Tyrion or any noble). Both would have been dangerous.  Tyrion was given a huge escort to get to Kings Landing, far far greater than the escort Robb gave his own mother to visit Renly and Stannis.

 

I do not always agree with you LittleDragon, but you have made some very good points.

I do not think I could have developed a better reasoned response.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

Tywin never actually wanted to kill Tyrion.  If he did, there was ample opportunity.  Maybe he was afraid Tyrion would shame the family if he was seen around Essos.  Maybe he was worried that he might actually succeed and make Tywin look bad.  Or maybe he always meant to keep Tyrion close and give him important (though not too important) positions in support of the family.

Agree. I believe that Tywin was kind of afraid of what Tyrion would had done in Essos. For example from all we know he could had married a woman of a powerful family who would had supported Tyrion as Tywin's heir.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

56 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Agree. I believe that Tywin was kind of afraid of what Tyrion would had done in Essos. For example from all we know he could had married a woman of a powerful family who would had supported Tyrion as Tywin's heir.

Tywin tried to arrange Tyrion marriages with Houses Hightower, Royce, Florent and even Tully. He was not scared of Tyrion getting a powerful marriage alliance, he was in favour of it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tywin tried to arrange Tyrion marriages with Houses Hightower, Royce, Florent and even Tully. He was not scared of Tyrion getting a powerful marriage alliance, he was in favour of it.

I don't think so. All of those houses were not either as powerful or as rich as the Lannisters and they most likely are afraid of Tywin. If however he had married someone like Larra Rogare powerful, rich and non Westerosi it's completely different.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think so. All of those houses were not either as powerful or as rich as the Lannisters and they most likely are afraid of Tywin. If however he had married someone like Larra Rogare powerful, rich and non Westerosi it's completely different.

Hightower is the second richest House in Westeros and likely one of the top 5. House Royce would be in the top 15. Both of these Houses would be more powerful than the Rogares who don't actually rule Lys but are just a powerful and influential family (among others) who reside there.

And I really doubt that Tywin was worried that his dwarf son was going to bag a powerful wife in Essos. It would be a boon, not a hindrance.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Hightower is the second richest House in Westeros and likely one of the top 5. House Royce would be in the top 15. Both of these Houses would be more powerful than the Rogares who don't actually rule Lys but are just a powerful and influential family (among others) who reside there.

Tyrells were the second. In any case the Rogares were an example for a powerful and rich foreign house.

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And I really doubt that Tywin was worried that his dwarf son was going to bag a powerful wife in Essos. It would be a boon, not a hindrance.

It's ok. We are allowed to disagree.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Tyrells were the second. In any case the Rogares were an example for a powerful and rich foreign house.

And Tywin was quite willing to marry Tyrion to a rich and powerful Westerosi House. I really can't see that the reason for not allowing his 15 year old dwarf son to go travelling around Essos.

Tyrion gives his uncles as an example, who both travelled when they were Tyrion's age but the difference being that both were Knights, Tygett himself serving and killing at a younger age in the Nine Penny Wars. Not only could both protect themselves but presumably neither had married a peasant after spending a few nights with them.

And then there is this;

"You mustn't mock him. Don't you know anything? You can't talk that way to a big person. They can hurt you. Ser Jorah could have tossed you in the sea. The sailors would have laughed to see you drown. You have to be careful around big people. Be jolly and playful with them, keep them smiling, make them laugh, that's what my father always said. Didn't your father ever tell you how to act with big people?"

Tyrion had been lucky that his father was so powerful in Westeros, he did not have to face the open humiliation to his face about being a dwarf. He would certainly have received that in Essos. Now whether this was Tywin looking out for Tyrion or not wanting a Lannister being a laughing stock throughout the free cities is not really the point just that Tywin has reason to not want him to go.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And Tywin was quite willing to marry Tyrion to a rich and powerful Westerosi House. I really can't see that the reason for not allowing his 15 year old dwarf son to go travelling around Essos.

Again Westerosi isn't the same with Essosi. Westerosi houses would had been afraid of him unlike of an Essosi.

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tyrion gives his uncles as an example, who both travelled when they were Tyrion's age but the difference being that both were Knights, Tygett himself serving and killing at a younger age in the Nine Penny Wars. Not only could both protect themselves but presumably neither had married a peasant after spending a few nights with them.

Agree about Tysha. Tyrion has proved that he cannot be trusted when it comes to marriage and emotional relationships.

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tyrion had been lucky that his father was so powerful in Westeros, he did not have to face the open humiliation to his face about being a dwarf. He would certainly have received that in Essos. Now whether this was Tywin looking out for Tyrion or not wanting a Lannister being a laughing stock throughout the free cities is not really the point just that Tywin has reason to not want him to go.

I don't agree. Unless he went in Essos by himself and not with at least some bodyguards he wouldn'f had any problem with being treated the same way with the Essosi dwarves. 

[No One of Importance]

Didn't Tywin have, like, zero respect for Essos?  "Spice soldiers and cheese lords," no?  I would think that his concern would not be in the danger of them not being afraid of him (the Lannister name does seem to carry some weight overseas) but rather in the shame it would bring to the House were Tyrion to end up with someone who, despite possibly possessing great (or even greater) wealth, comes from a society that Tywin holds in no regard.

[dariopatke]

3 hours ago, Grey Firewyrm said:

I think Tywin is split between how he feels for Tyrion. On one hand he is is son. Then there is the shame factor.

I tend to see Tywins' actions as allowing Tyrion to make his own way although there are always a bias of risk factors which he always seems to overcome. I think Tywin is proud of his son and is secretly intrigued to see exactly how far Tyrion can go. Packing him of to Valyria would be the easy option. Not very noble.

This seems right. I also think Tywin sees some of him in Tyrion, but part of him refuses to accept it.

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It was a fools quest, as evidenced by Gerion never returning just like it was for their ancestor King Tommen.

Tywin did not want rid of Tyrion, if he had then Tyrion would have disappeared long ago.

 

He wasn't supposed to lose. The Mountain was in charge of the Vanguard and Tywin was not trying to have him killed (nor was he killed). Tyrion, with the squire given to him by his father, the sellsword bodyguard paid with his fathers money and 300 odd Clansmen under his command should have been safe. It was unlikely that his life was in danger.

Now even with all that, you may need to reread that chapter to see the sequence of events what actually happened.

• Tywin offered him other command positions which Tyrion refused
• Tyrion tells his father the price he has arranged for the Mountain Clan members
• Tywin tells them they can wait to collect it from the Rock or have it now if they help him fight Robb
• they agree only as long as the half man fights with them
• later on Tywin offers Tyrion the chance to guard the baggage train, he refuses.

 

eh? Staying with the Lannister army would have been just as dangerous. There was a war going on, either Tyrion goes to the capital or stays in the battlefield (being sent home to Casterly Rock would have been humiliating for Tyrion or any noble). Both would have been dangerous.  Tyrion was given a huge escort to get to Kings Landing, far far greater than the escort Robb gave his own mother to visit Renly and Stannis.

 

No, that would be kinslaying. He may have wanted him to disappear but not by his hand. But yet part of him didnt wish him gone. I hate how people denny the fact how complex is Tywin, doubtless one of most interesting characters.

But he could have been killed easily, or recaptured at least which almost happened. But what stopped him from giving couple of knights to look after Tyrion?

Of course I do and I certanly plan on rereading soon amd you have a point here. I think that was his biggest chance to get rid of Tyrion and the fact that he didnt do it was prof of his afection (along with many other things).

Yes, but Lannister army was 20k strong with best commander alive, certanly better than 2k Gold Cloaks with questionable morale and 500k hungry men.