A possible new take on the Rhaegar = Mance crackpot

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Aegon VII said:

Not familiar with this at all. Don't think it's enough to invalidate the theory in my mind, but I would love to learn more about it. I'll do some research but any links are appreciated! Thank you for the information. Again though I'll say, there is more than enough in the text to support mr=RT. If it's not true, GRRM was cognizant of how many parallels he made between mr and RT and purposely made the connections as a misdirection (granted, this is complete speculation on my part)

Elio co-wrote TWOIAF. He's very up on all the info and if he says Rhaegar is dead, Rhaegar is probably dead.

But I agree that there are things in the text that make people think of Rhaegar and Mance. That's why I developed my own Mance theory to explain why R=M keeps coming up.

And of course an ultra-crackpot that is impossible but incredibly fun: Mance and Rhaegar as twins, with Mance sent to the Wall because Grandpa Jaehaerys feared the boys would fight over the kingdom.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

55 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

No it's not. Mr=RT is a valid theory about asoiaf, your statement was a bad joke. You may not appreciate the difference, others do.

The theory is a horrible joke gone awry. 

37 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't know how valid it is when a guy who works with GRRM and on whom GRRM relies for help with the millions of details in the series has repeatedly (and sometimes heatedly) said that Rhaegar Targaryen is dead. You've heard of Elio/Ran, right?

You probably weren't here during the height of the Mance = Rhaegar craze when people were posting three threads a week on it. That's when Ran lost his cool and posted in all caps that "Rhaegar Targaryen is f-ing dead."  Only he didn't shorten the f word.

Listen to the lady, she knows about what she speaks

26 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Not familiar with this at all. Don't think it's enough to invalidate the theory in my mind, but I would love to learn more about it. I'll do some research but any links are appreciated! Thank you for the information. Again though I'll say, there is more than enough in the text to support mr=RT. If it's not true, GRRM was cognizant of how many parallels he made between mr and RT and purposely made the connections as a misdirection (granted, this is complete speculation on my part)

And this is why everyone cracks non-stop jokes about this and every other Rhaegar or Euron or Dario = everyone threads 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

<snip

Listen to the lady, she knows about what she speaks

<snip

Sometimes I do. I swear I've forgotten as much about the books as I remember about them. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Sometimes I do. I swear I've forgotten as much about the books as I remember about them. 

We all do. I have done 3 reads of each book. Something new shows up every time. My last one was the first time I realized that Roose's squire in clash was Arya's betrothed and we read when the Freys turn on Robb. I hated feast the first time I read it and now I find it to be one of the better books in the series

[Lord Wraith]

As others have stated Martin says he was cremated. Now I don't think Martin would lie to us, misdirect certainly but not lie.

Now Mance being Arthur Dayne does have some plausibility.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

As others have stated Martin says he was cremated. Now I don't think Martin would lie to us, misdirect certainly but not lie.

Now Mance being Arthur Dayne does have some plausibility.

I don't see anything Dayne-like about Mance. Fighting ability itself isn't enough. There should be other clues and there aren't.

[Viking]

Well until Martin writes it it is Schrödingers Crackpot. I've found the idea plausible since AFFC, mainly due to me reading the Illiad at the same time contemplating Patrokolus in Achilles armor. ADWD has only re-enforced that plausibility, especially Jamie's White Tower segment and LF's story about who did what to whom with Lady Forlorn at the Trident. I keep coming back to the quote in my signature. "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own." (if there is an edit it is because I corrected this). MR=RT just makes so much narrative sense and so much poetic sense that if it isn't what George intended then I think my head-cannon might be better.  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, Viking said:

Well until Martin writes it it is Schrödingers Crackpot. I've found the idea plausible since AFFC, mainly due to me reading the Illiad at the same time contemplating Patrokolus in Achilles armor. ADWD has only re-enforced that plausibility, especially Jamie's White Tower segment and LF's story about who did what to whom with Lady Forlorn at the Trident. I keep coming back to the quote in my signature. "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own." (if there is an edit it is because I corrected this). MR=RT just makes so much narrative sense and so much poetic sense that if it isn't what George intended then I think my head-cannon might be better.  

I do hope you'll give my theory a look when I get it posted. It explains royal blood without resorting to Mance being Rhaegar. I could link you to the original if you like. It's been archived though so no one can comment on it. And the new version will be much better organized and supported.

[Aegon VII]

30 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

As others have stated Martin says he was cremated. Now I don't think Martin would lie to us, misdirect certainly but not lie.

Now Mance being Arthur Dayne does have some plausibility.

I'm glad you brought this up as that's one I really don't get. I feel there's so much evidence pointing to MR=RT but so little for Arthur dayne. Whereas dayne being qhorin is actually supported with his ruby necklace and jaimes comment about him defeating people with his left hand. I'd be interested to hear any evidence of arthur being mance.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't see anything Dayne-like about Mance. Fighting ability itself isn't enough. There should be other clues and there aren't.

exactly. Whereas for MR=RT there are clues galore. Even just rereading dany's hotu visions compared to Jaime's weirwood dream of rhaegar, there's so much that fits beautifully if mance is rhaegar. Aemon steelsong, the bael parallels, alfie allen's star wars comment, jon dueling with rattleshirt, jons comment about his blood being no more royal, GRRM playing with high birth and how it relates to the right to rule, The reader being misled about the king beyond the walls identity when Jon first enters the tent filled with red light and smoke, Mance's story about his red and black cloak, the conflicting back stories on Mance.... The list goes on     Oh and I just saw your reply to viking. I'm interested in your theory! I think it's plain that Mance is more than what he appears, if you have an alternative that works better than him being rhaegar I'm all ears! the only ones i've really seen tossed around are that he's a descendent of ether bloodraven or qorgyle, and I think both are just way too insignifcant and not supported enough in the text.

18 minutes ago, Viking said:

Well until Martin writes it it is Schrödingers Crackpot. I've found the idea plausible since AFFC, mainly due to me reading the Illiad at the same time contemplating Patrokolus in Achilles armor. ADWD has only re-enforced that plausibility, especially Jamie's White Tower segment and LF's story about who did what to whom with Lady Forlorn at the Trident. I keep coming back to the quote in my signature. "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own." (if there is an edit it is because I corrected this). MR=RT just makes so much narrative sense and so much poetic sense that if it isn't what George intended then I think my head-cannon might be better.  

Haha, I agree with a lot of what you've said here. I kind of think that when GRRM talked about having an idea for one character that they couldn't do on the show because he was dead, he was talking about MR=RT. I find it interesting because if true, it sounds like he still hadn't decided whether he would make MR=RT or not, though I have trouble believing that's true.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

As others have stated Martin says he was cremated. Now I don't think Martin would lie to us, misdirect certainly but not lie.

Now Mance being Arthur Dayne does have some plausibility.

Mance being Arthur has exactly one small detail that's plausible, Mance chose a greatsword at CB when he sparred with Jon while glamoured as Rattleshirt and Arthur wielded a greatsword called Dawn. No more, no less. There are way more differences than there are just that one similarity. Where Mance is musical, both vocally and instrumentaly, multilingual in song and speech, possessing the gift of prophesy or keen foresight, a bit of a trickster, an oathbreaker, loves the charms of women, and doesn't keep a particularly tight and orderly encampment for his troops, Arthur is the complete opposite in all respects, especially the camp keeping. 

 

Its true, GRRM stated clearly that Rhaegar was cremated, and Mance was too thought to have been put to the torch, but we know that Mance survived his death and cremation, by the way of glamours, so it's possible, and it's possible that the author deflected a question without lying, while simultaneously not giving up a possible wrinkle in his plot, a tricksy answer, perhaps.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I do hope you'll give my theory a look when I get it posted. It explains royal blood without resorting to Mance being Rhaegar. I could link you to the original if you like.

Please, do, I don't recall if I have read it or not. - But let me guess: Bloodraven's descendant?

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't see anything Dayne-like about Mance. Fighting ability itself isn't enough. There should be other clues and there aren't.

 

1 hour ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Mance being Arthur has exactly one small detail that's plausible, Mance chose a greatsword at CB when he sparred with Jon while glamoured as Rattleshirt and Arthur wielded a greatsword called Dawn. No more, no less. There are way more differences than there are just that one similarity. Where Mance is musical, both vocally and instrumentaly, multilingual in song and speech, possessing the gift of prophesy or keen foresight, a bit of a trickster, an oathbreaker, loves the charms of women, and doesn't keep a particularly tight and orderly encampment for his troops, Arthur is the complete opposite in all respects, especially the camp keeping. 

Its true, GRRM stated clearly that Rhaegar was cremated, and Mance was too thought to have been put to the torch, but we know that Mance survived his death and cremation, by the way of glamours, so it's possible, and it's possible that the author deflected a question without lying, while simultaneously not giving up a possible wrinkle in his plot, a tricksy answer, perhaps.

Well the probably is we don't know a great deal about Arthur Dayne. I wonder what he and Rhaegar bonded over? It could have been fighting but Rhaegar was never big in that. Maybe it was music or prophecy. We know that he was an amazing fighter and knight. Ned thinks he's a great knight and that has to count for something. The fight scene is admittedly one of the few things that made me more amenable to the theory.

We know Arthur won over the smallfolk by making them love him and helping them out. This is similar to Mance uniting all the clans. Getting the clans, many of which hate each other to work together is a nothing short of a miracle. I am sure Arthur Dayne I am sure would prefer a more orderly camp but this is wildlings we are talking about. Now many times has Jon and others gone on about the lack of Wildling discipline. I mean Mance isn't a god to make people change their ways so quickly.

Also where are you getting the idea that Arthur "is the complete opposite in all respects." Unless you have read something I am not familiar with. Yes the JonCon reference is a good hint but as I stated above they are Wildlings, he isn't going to turn them into the Golden Company in a few years. He is just trying to get them South of the Wall before Winter.

The Order of the Greenhand has a video series on it some of it I find compelling and some I don't but they can explain it better than I can.

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Please, do, I don't recall if I have read it or not. - But let me guess: Bloodraven's descendant?

This has always been my favorite idea behind Mance Rayder.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

Is it possible that the similarities between MR and RT are there to show the irony of power in GRRMs world? That the ones who possess kingly traits, and are even loved by the people, are often held back from assuming the actual position of power that they seemingly deserve? People expected RT to make a great king, so much so that the mad king started considering disinheriting him to keep him from it. The wildilings rarely unify except under an exceptional person, but their goals are short-term and MR was never going to retain his position for long.

We see people with truly great potential in these near-powerful roles. Not quite in position to call the shots. I don't know, I guess I just don't really want a bunch of reveals/twists this late in the story. Same way I think/hope it's a fAegon.

[Praetor Xyn]

On 8/28/2016 at 0:30 AM, Sensenmenn said:

I always thought he was arther dayne I mean he has brown hair, fights with and has great skill with a great sword, sings dornish music, and is good at making people love and respect him. 

I agree. I'm not necessarily saying Mance is Arthur Dayne, but I would like it if he was and if Mance is anyone besides who he says he is, Arthur Dayne is the only suggestion for his true identity I've seen that makes any sense.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Please, do, I don't recall if I have read it or not. - But let me guess: Bloodraven's descendant?

I believe you commented on the original and yes the main idea is Bloodaven, but there's a (thin and shaky) case to be made for Aemon as well.

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

 

Well the probably is we don't know a great deal about Arthur Dayne. I wonder what he and Rhaegar bonded over? It could have been fighting but Rhaegar was never big in that. Maybe it was music or prophecy. We know that he was an amazing fighter and knight. Ned thinks he's a great knight and that has to count for something. The fight scene is admittedly one of the few things that made me more amenable to the theory.

<snip

I have to disagree with that. As soon as he read that TDtwP was a warrior he went and started training and kept going until he was one of the best. After Arthur joined the KG, he and Rhaegar probably spent time sparring to keep their skills sharp, and so that Rhaegar could continue to improve. Wasn't it Barristan who said Rhaegar excelled at everything he did? Maybe fighting wasn't his favorite thing, but he seems to have taken it very seriously and become a warrior to be feared (provided one didn't have warhammer).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Please, do, I don't recall if I have read it or not. - But let me guess: Bloodraven's descendant?

Board won't let me edit my last post so here's the link. 

 

[Lord Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I believe you commented on the original and yes the main idea is Bloodaven, but there's a (thin and shaky) case to be made for Aemon as well.

I have to disagree with that. As soon as he read that TDtwP was a warrior he went and started training and kept going until he was one of the best. After Arthur joined the KG, he and Rhaegar probably spent time sparring to keep their skills sharp, and so that Rhaegar could continue to improve. Wasn't it Barristan who said Rhaegar excelled at everything he did? Maybe fighting wasn't his favorite thing, but he seems to have taken it very seriously and become a warrior to be feared (provided one didn't have warhammer).

I mean we all know Rhaegar was a warrior but it seemed more a duty than something he loved like music and prophecy. Remember his line to Darry, "seems I must me a warrior." We don't hear don't hear stories of him going to Summerhall and sparring with Arthur Dayne. There is so much we don't know. There is likely more to Arthur Dayne than badass swordman, and great knight.

History of Westeros in their Dayne series speculated that he might have been a decent politician. One of the reasons he was sent to deal with the Kingswood brotherhood over more qualified knights was to remove him from court. Likely trying to weaken Rhaegar's faction at court.

I'll read up on the Mance Enigma.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I mean we all know Rhaegar was a warrior but it seemed more a duty than something he loved like music and prophecy. Remember his line to Darry, "seems I must me a warrior." We don't hear don't hear stories of him going to Summerhall and sparring with Arthur Dayne. There is so much we don't know. There is likely more to Arthur Dayne than badass swordman, and great knight.

History of Westeros in their Dayne series speculated that he might have been a decent politician. One of the reasons he was sent to deal with the Kingswood brotherhood over more qualified knights was to remove him from court. Likely trying to weaken Rhaegar's faction at court.

I'll read up on the Mance Enigma.

Even without loving fighting, Rhaegar still could have bonded with Arthur over it. But I do like the idea that prophecy was part of the connection. House Dayne was around during the Long Night, so maybe Arthur had some family stories about it that Rhaegar found interesting.

I'm sure there was more to Arthur than just his knightly reputation.

[Viking]

Re Mance as a decendent of Bloodraven. To what end? By that I mean why create a mysterious and concealed background for this character when there are no consequences for him being the decendent of bloodraven. He could have proudly declared himself the decendent of the last greenseer and those who believed him would like that and those who didn't wouldn't care. In fact it would likely make him even better suited to lead the wildlings south if he was or even if he just managed to plausibly claim he was. 

MR=RT has a really good reason to keep his identity secret. Robert would kill him. Those who would keep his secret (qorin halfhand, lord commander qorgiyle and maester aemon) have very good personaly, political and principled reasons to cover it up. I don't understand why Mance beeing a decendend of Bloodraven would be covered up or why anybody might want to. Deny and refute, possibly, but keep it secret? It doesn't make any sense. 

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, Viking said:

To what end?

To prevent convoluted, contradictory scenarios from happening?

Besides, the series is not over yet, and Mance is not dead yet. We see him bond with Jon, we have all this stuff about royal blood weaving magics... it would be fun to see that Mel was right, after all.

10 hours ago, Viking said:

He could have proudly declared himself the decendent of the last greenseer

Provided that he knew in the first place.