Dead or Somewhat Dead

[Curled Finger]

@YOVMO, it's not a real party until you show up my friend.   I always enjoy the way your mind works.   To your 1st black blood with Benjen and the Night's Watch.   I posted a small topic this weekend that gleaned ZERO replies.  You could be the 1st if you hurry--it's only 3 pages back, but I think it's relative to our discussion here.  Bran recalls a story Old Nan told him about monsters not being able to cross the Wall.  She says that so long as the Wall remains strong and the Night's Watch remains true no monsters can pass.  It's clear the Night's Watch we see isn't true to their vows.  Maybe Benjen hasn't been either, and maybe Benjen is the truest brother of all.  Is there any hope for their continued existence or will they become what they are supposed to be protecting the realm from with true black blood flowing in their veins?   

"Craster's blood is black and bears a heavy curse..."  That's so perfect.  Thanks for that one.   So riddle me this, it is possible that all these curious transformations are the result of a curse?  Both the magic givers as well as the receivers?  Maybe the Others are far more powerful than we think.

Oh I will be watching Volmar if only to see what the waters do after he dies!  

Some of your quotes like blood appearing to or being compared to black are almost discountable in this to me at any rate. Not that they don't mean something, only that i have to stay on track with actual blood that really is black and even smoking sometimes.  If I allow myself to go there I will never get to answers!  You, on the other hand, are welcome to bring all your black blood here.  

You are talking my language with the black blood of demons, brother.   Mel says virtually the same thing in her POV.    Let's go there, shall we? What do you make of it now that you have Mel saying the same thing?

Really good questions and you know I love a good citation.   Good job, man.   

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Drogon's blood is black but 

Viserion's is gold and red. Unless it is just appearing gold and red because of a torch? At this point in Quentyn's encounter neither dragon had released any fire I don't think...

I'm going to read through The Princess and the Queen and Rougue Prince to see if we see some other dragon blood references. 

I actually sent someone to your post in a text today.   This is some fascinating information.   Please let us know if you find anything in TPATQ!   

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran recalls a story Old Nan told him about monsters not being able to cross the Wall.  She says that so long as the Wall remains strong and the Night's Watch remains true no monsters can pass.

Euhm, a "monster" has passed the Wall, in Gilly's arms, through the Blac Gate, tended by 2 nurses at CB. He's called "Monster" by Val.

 

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

"Craster's blood is black and bears a heavy curse..."  That's so perfect.  Thanks for that one.   So riddle me this, it is possible that all these curious transformations are the result of a curse?

With the "black blood" and "curse" you might be interested in "Craster's Black Blooded Curse" essay I posted a month ago. Craster pretty much would have ticked off all of the Bloodstone Emperor's crimes on his bucket list. You can also find it on my blog in the Bear & Maiden section. It also involves "black sausages", which I suspect are "wight sausages" and I suspect he also has "ranger bacon".

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Alright - I am enjoying this thread too!  Based on the suggestions and great input I've added & moved some about in the chart and removed the comments.
(this chart is for everyone (dedicated to /totally inspired by the thoughts of CF)  - copy and edit as you feel needed, I changed it up from the first post as I have as I find it easier to think things out in chart form)

 

I put the UNDYING in level 1 as they might be like the Drowned God ritual survivors - OR are they level 3 as in do they create or influence visions/dreams or some sort of shadow magic?
Added Damphair to level 1 because he did a drowning thing too, like Davos ... didn't he?
Is Lancel dead?  I haven't watched season 6, don't worry about telling me the 'truth' I can handel it.

 

Personally I think the 'black blood' group needs to stay together which is why I've left unGregor in 2nd level.
Milisandre does/did drink wine as does Victarion so I think they should stay on level 2 as well...
If you all really would like to move them to level 1 then let us do so but I think they have more 'magic' training/ability then the level 1 folks and this is what distinguishes them.
And that brings us to Varamyr - what is he now - permawarg? 

 

As for Bloodraven ... he's gotta be ultra 'magic' to be able to appear in Bran's dreams/thoughts - level 4.
Oh and even though I think the dragons merit thinking about, I've removed them.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st level DEAD
Medically resurrected or revived:

 

Drowned God's ritual survivors
Damphair
The UNDYING
Dany
Bran
Tyrion
Davos
future Jon
Sam  
Lancel Lannister??? 
Pending: Sandor Clegane

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd level DEAD
NEVER really DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Ser Strong/unGregor
Victarion
Melisandre
Patchface
Moqorro
Varamyr - no human body remains PERMAWARG.   

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd level DEAD
REALLY DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Beric Dondarrion    
Lady Stone Heart      
Wights/Walkers - The Army of the Dead  
                                            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th level DEAD
DEAD AGAIN (was L2 or L3) with more BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
(or NOT confirmed to have died first)

 

the OTHERS
Coldhands
Bloodraven

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now who else is missing from the list?

 

 

 

That's great. For the record I have to paraphrase some things to get my head around them so party on with your kick ass charts!   Lancel is still alive so he can be removed (Books, Yaya, Books!).  Damphair did indeed drown. I dare not speak to the Undying, but @OtherFromAnotherMother can get us right on that count.  Beric, Mel and Vic all drink, but they do not eat.  Since he doesn't tinkle I think it's safe to leave Gregor on level 2.  You leave them right where they are as your reasoning is sound.  Elder Brother needs to be on there somewhere.  The big one on the list is The Others.  Are they dead or do they simply command the dead?  

Permawarg!  Priceless...Did you get to go back and enjoy that awesome prologue?   

 

[Yaya]

INDEED - THE BOOKS  
Elder Brother - on level with the likes of Damphair ?

updated:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st level DEAD
Medically resurrected or revived:

 

Drowned God's ritual survivors
Damphair
Elder Brother
The UNDYING
Dany
Bran
Tyrion
Davos
future Jon
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd level DEAD
NEVER really DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Ser Strong/unGregor
Victarion
Melisandre
Patchface
Moqorro
Varamyr - no human body remains PERMAWARG.   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd level DEAD
REALLY DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Beric Dondarrion    
Lady Stone Heart      
Wights/Walkers - The Army of the Dead                                        
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th level DEAD
DEAD AGAIN (was L2 or L3) with more BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
(or NOT confirmed to have died first)

 

the OTHERS
Coldhands
Bloodraven
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Curled Finger]

@sweetsunray, I've read everything you've written here, some more than once.  Your love of topic is a beautiful thing to read. I'm so glad to have another resource to learn more about these fascinating things you see--i can feel my little side study of the Norse myths rekindling again. I'll take you up on the offer to go revisit your Crasters Black Blood topic.   

I did just finish my very 1st foray into the Arthurian legends so I got the apples on the island reference.   So many years between The Sorcerer and The Stone and The Once and Future King.  It is just another of many wonderful things ASOIAF has inspired me to learn.   As a reader, I'm very glad you too, found a place that inspires you to write your wonderful contrasts and comparisons while giving so many of us an avenue to things we never knew but will.   

[sweetsunray]

@Curled Finger I do very much appreciate this thread and what others are writing up and contributing. It's certainly a good thread to pool ideas. The first post in response to you wanting to know what I thought about all these resurrections is sort-of the scoop of where I intend to head with the Chthonic Cycle.

So, if I were to use my underworld ideas and how I think George uses and apply it to @Yaya's list, I would rearrange it as

 

Subaquatic "under the sea" (or river)

Drowned God's ritual survivors
Damphair
Elder Brother

Davos

Sam

Tyrion

Patchface

Moqorro

Lady Stoneheart

Victarion (on a ship at least)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Subterranean "under the ground" (dungeons, caves)

 

Ser Strong/unGregor (KL dungeons)

Elder Brother (Hermit's Cave?)

Sandor (Hermit's Cave?)

Undying ones (deep inside the HotU)

Beric Dondarrion (once after Sandor's trial in Hollow Hill)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the "underworld realm" (currently Beyond the Wall + North + RL)

 

Coldhands (beyond the wall)

Wights (beyond the wall)

Bloodraven (beyond the wall)

Varamyr (beyond the Wall)

future Jon (at the Wall)

Bran (North)

GoHH (annexed Riverlands)

Beric Dondarrion (annexed Riverlands)

Lady Stoneheart (annexed Riverlands)

Sandor (annexed Riverlands)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In "fire"

Dany

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unknown/other/Asshai magic applied

 

Melisandre (Asshai of the Shadow perhaps? Drowned perhaps?)

Drogo (well he did live, not much of a life in Dany's eyes, but he lived...perhaps it was such a poor succes, because of the wrong location)

 

[Curled Finger]

@sweetsunray, poor Yaya's sure got her work cut out for her, doesn't she?   I dig that reassessment as seen through your lens on Westeros.  I would like to know if you see a heavenly or extraterrestrial place in universe.   After posting I wondered if the Targaryans weren't some sort of representation.  But I am not the authority in this matter and hope you have a few more moments to explain that? Also, what is in fire?  You've separated Dany from the Red Priests, you've separated Mel from nearly everyone as well.  I'm just trying to get my head around this vision.   

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@sweetsunray, poor Yaya's sure got her work cut out for her, doesn't she?   I dig that reassessment as seen through your lens on Westeros.  I would like to know if you see a heavenly or extraterrestrial place in universe.   After posting I wondered if the Targaryans weren't some sort of representation.  But I am not the authority in this matter and hope you have a few more moments to explain that? Also, what is in fire?  You've separated Dany from the Red Priests, you've separated Mel from nearly everyone as well.  I'm just trying to get my head around this vision.   

Well, "a heaven" in the sense of an "afterlife location" is "underworld to me" or "otherworld" (like the fields where the good heroic Greeks went, or Arthur).

Celestial is not an afterlife of the dead in mythology (except Christianity), but the dwelling of the celestial gods. The mortals don't get to live with the gods. Only one demi-god is allowed such a place amongst the gods with the Greeks - Hercules, and Ursus Major and Minor - and only one mortal dead woman is granted such a place - Dionysus (a god) retrieves his second mother (who rebirthed him and died) from Hades. With the Mayans and Egytians only kings/pharaos have a chance to become celestial, but they are already seen as reincarnated gods anyway. For the Greeks the celestial realm is Mount Olympus, and King's Landing has ties to that. For the Norse that is Asgard, the garden of the Ase/gods, and Highgarden has ties to that (the name, the 3 singers weirwood trees at a pool in their godswood). Oldtown seems to have some celestial references too, but haven't checked up on that yet.

Well the red priest Moqorro was lost on the sea and picked up by IB out of the sea... "drowned". He did not surive a pyre of flame did he? I looked at the location or area they survived/were revived in... completely ignoring whatever god they follow. Dany wasn't drowned. Dany didn't go into a cave. She sat on a pyre and came out of it, naked, a 2nd life as mother of dragons. She's the sole one we know has done that. As for Mel - we don't know how she "died" or "where" she died, let alone where she was revived.  

[Blackfyre Bastard]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@sweetsunray, poor Yaya's sure got her work cut out for her, doesn't she?

I wouldn't discard Yaya's chart just yet, as it categorizes levels of "deathness" whereas sweetsunray's places each character geographically within the magical landscape.

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, "a heaven" in the sense of an "afterlife location" is "underworld to me" or "otherworld" (like the fields where the good heroic Greeks went, or Arthur).

Celestial is not an afterlife of the dead in mythology (except Christianity), but the dwelling of the celestial gods. The mortals don't get to live with the gods. Only one demi-god is allowed such a place amongst the gods with the Greeks - Hercules, and Ursus Major and Minor - and only one mortal dead woman is granted such a place - Dionysus (a god) retrieves his second mother (who rebirthed him and died) from Hades. With the Mayans and Egytians only kings/pharaos have a chance to become celestial, but they are already seen as reincarnated gods anyway. For the Greeks the celestial realm is Mount Olympus, and King's Landing has ties to that. For the Norse that is Asgard, the garden of the Ase/gods, and Highgarden has ties to that (the name, the 3 singers weirwood trees at a pool in their godswood). Oldtown seems to have some celestial references too, but haven't checked up on that yet.

Well the red priest Moqorro was lost on the sea and picked up by IB out of the sea... "drowned". He did not surive a pyre of flame did he? I looked at the location or area they survived/were revived in... completely ignoring whatever god they follow. Dany wasn't drowned. Dany didn't go into a cave. She sat on a pyre and came out of it, naked, a 2nd life as mother of dragons. She's the sole one we know has done that. As for Mel - we don't know how she "died" or "where" she died, let alone where she was revived.  

I wondered if The Others are not wicked things if maybe The Lands of Always Winter could be a sort of heaven?  I'm not sure about Moqorro not surviving a burning of his own.   We are not told specifically what Moqorro endured but there is this from The Iron Suitor in ADWD when Victarion meets him...

The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion's mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman's skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

Maybe nothing but at least I understand "in fire" better now.   Thank you for clarifying all these things for us, sweetsunray.   

[Yaya]

Hey, I didn't think of Dany's "death" in that regard SSR ... I'm going to think on that.
And true that of Mel, we only have hints of her past.

Was just searching the WIKI here:
"In an email to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson, George R. R. Martin wrote

“	The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.[11]

I WILL ADVISE EVERYONE to watch out what you read in that WIKI ... I didn't realize that they put the TV SHOW information in there ... luckily I didn't read "everything" before I figured out what was going on.

So yea, some considerations for Dany & Mel along with The OTHERS.
(I am no longer going to ever refer to 'The OTHERS' as 'White Walkers'  because, we have to keep the book canon straight)

 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I wouldn't discard Yaya's chart just yet, as it categorizes levels of "deathness" whereas sweetsunray's places each character geographically within the magical landscape.

I won't discard any of this exhaustive work Yaya's given us.   I can see her reworking another one though.  Is there anything better than readers who give so much to a conversation?   

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Hey, I didn't think of Dany's "death" in that regard SSR ... I'm going to think on that.
And true that of Mel, we only have hints of her past.

Was just searching the WIKI here:
"In an email to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson, George R. R. Martin wrote

“	The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.[11]

I WILL ADVISE EVERYONE to watch out what you read in that WIKI ... I didn't realize that they put the TV SHOW information in there ... luckily I didn't read "everything" before I figured out what was going on.

So yea, some considerations for Dany & Mel along with The OTHERS.
(I am no longer going to ever refer to 'The OTHERS' as 'White Walkers'  because, we have to keep the book canon straight)

 

Clean out your inbox.  I'm going to PM you with a far superior search device than our wiki...

[Sensenmenn]

There was a theory about the high sparow being undead a while back heres a link

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/140855-are-there-more-undead-characters-out-there/#comment-7627249

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

That's great. For the record I have to paraphrase some things to get my head around them so party on with your kick ass charts!   Lancel is still alive so he can be removed (Books, Yaya, Books!).  Damphair did indeed drown. I dare not speak to the Undying, but @OtherFromAnotherMother can get us right on that count.  Beric, Mel and Vic all drink, but they do not eat.  Since he doesn't tinkle I think it's safe to leave Gregor on level 2.  You leave them right where they are as your reasoning is sound.  Elder Brother needs to be on there somewhere.  The big one on the list is The Others.  Are they dead or do they simply command the dead?  

Permawarg!  Priceless...Did you get to go back and enjoy that awesome prologue?   

 

CoK, Dany IV:

Quote

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

Prior to this, of course, was Dany's visions.  Also, she was tempted by good looking kings and wizards feigning to be the actual Undying.  Drogon let Dany know something was up and Dany bounced out asap.  

The description of the heart is interesting.  GRRM goes with blue here.  The Undying do not appear to be alive.  

Dany sits and hopes for some righteous council from these creepy dudes.  

Quote

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue.

More interesting descriptions of an Undying One.  Blue, blue, blue.  

Quote

the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air...

It seems as if they speak to her within her own head, not actually talking out loud.  Not moving.  Dany sees a lot more visions then

Quote

The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

They must be able to move because now they are around her groping, tearing, etc.

Quote

Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

Drogon saves Dany for the first time.  By killing the heart, Drogon kills the Undying.  We find out later in DwD Dany III from Xaro that: 

Quote

I was hounded from your city in fear for my life. "It was time. Qarth wished me gone."

"Who? The Pureborn? They have water in their veins. The Spicers? There are curds between their ears. And the Undying are all dead. You should have taken me to husband. I am almost certain that I asked you for your hand. Begged you, even."

It was interesting to read this chapter and ignoring the visions.  I've read this chapter probably 10 times focusing only on the visions but never really looked at what the Undying actually were.  It is clear to me that the heart was how they stayed alive.  It is also clear to me that they are now all dead.  Sorry, but I'm not sure which category they should go in. Maybe the Subterranean one, as they are being kept alive unnaturally.  But I also don't think we can say for sure that they ever died.

Conclusion: UNDYING ARE TRIPPY. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

50 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well the red priest Moqorro was lost on the sea and picked up by IB out of the sea... "drowned". He did not surive a pyre of flame did he? I looked at the location or area they survived/were revived in... completely ignoring whatever god they follow. Dany wasn't drowned. Dany didn't go into a cave. She sat on a pyre and came out of it, naked, a 2nd life as mother of dragons. She's the sole one we know has done that. As for Mel - we don't know how she "died" or "where" she died, let alone where she was revived.  

My 2 cents on Dany in relation to this thread. 

I don't think we should be including here at all here.  She never "died".  She had a moment where she survived flames and fire and walked out.  GRRM had this to say about the funeral pyre moment: 

Quote

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Are_Targaryens_immune_to_fire

If we are including her because she starts a "2nd life" after the pyre this is a bad road for us to go down.  Then we would have to include a lot of people who started "2nd lives" (Theon, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, etc.....)

 

[Yaya]

ahhh, good points OFAM.   Going to have to think on those.
Sensenmenn - thanks for the thoughts on the High Sparrow too ... I'm going to re-read on of that.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

@OtherFromAnotherMother, Man that was good to read all that again.   Thanks a million.   So there we have it the Undying are unequivocally dead. Yaya made a new chart and added them to the mix.   If you have a chance to take a look at the New and Improved Chart of the Dead you can see where Yaya rearranged things a bit.  See if you enjoy permawarg as much as I did.  

sweetsunray's chart was a separate discussion of characters in their geographic magical locations.   It was based upon, but not our Chart of the Dead.   Check out her explanations of the underworld if you want to go in a most interesting direction with this information.   

You are a wonder at digging up all these citations.   I did get caught up on your dragon blood and can't thank you enough for your time in that.  It seems you've been nominated as the Undying goto guy.   Check out Yaya's new chart and see if you agree with their placement?   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@OtherFromAnotherMother, Man that was good to read all that again.   Thanks a million.   So there we have it the Undying are unequivocally dead. Yaya made a new chart and added them to the mix.   If you have a chance to take a look at the New and Improved Chart of the Dead you can see where Yaya rearranged things a bit.  See if you enjoy permawarg as much as I did.  

sweetsunray's chart was a separate discussion of characters in their geographic magical locations.   It was based upon, but not our Chart of the Dead.   Check out her explanations of the underworld if you want to go in a most interesting direction with this information.   

You are a wonder at digging up all these citations.   I did get caught up on your dragon blood and can't thank you enough for your time in that.  It seems you've been nominated as the Undying goto guy.   Check out Yaya's new chart and see if you agree with their placement?   

I'd go with level 2.  Never really dead, but being kept alive unnaturally....................... and BLUE!!!