There is more of the North in you than in your brothers: R+L ≠ J

[Kurus]

Two caveats before I begin.

Caveat 1: this is not a comprehensive review- I know that people have carried enormous, line-by-line rereads of all the books in service of their specific Jon Snow theories. I remember seeing that the core R+L=J post had reached 187 iterations. This is not that. This is based on only a few lines from the beginning of Game of Thrones, the World of Ice and Fire and a little bit of general book knowledge. It is even quite possible that elsewhere on this site another has already written what I am about to say.

Caveat 2: I am not a forum maven- pursuant to what I just wrote, I’m not sure how the various long-running heresy etc. threads work. I am an avid consumer of ASoIaF theorization, but am not fully aware of the armature that has been built around it. As such, I am sorry if this belongs somewhere other than randomly in “General.”

--

Alright. Now that that’s out of the way…

This past season of Game of Thrones seemed to confirm what could be considered the ur-theory of A Song of Ice and Fire, that Jon Snow is not in fact Ned Stark’s bastard, but the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. We even got a nice family tree released from HBO confirming as much.

I only know because while I was describing the theory I am about to lay out at a party (a frequent occurrence) someone sought to  refute my and any other non-R+L=J theory by pointing out the existence of an official family tree now dispelling any serious opposition to this most popular theory. I say that it is too bad such trees have been misleading before. After all, this is the account of Jon Snow’s parentage in the season 1 DVD booklet.

And what did we see in the show anyway? We barely heard Ned and  Lyanna’s exchange. The staging makes it pretty clear that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, something that I do support (and won’t go into too much detail about), but there is no confirmation here that Rhaegar is indeed the father.

When I read ASoIaF now, I engage a rule which I all GRRM-surplussage. Surplussage is a canon of legislative construction used by courts and lawyers that assumes every part of a law, down to the last clause and word, was meant to serve some purpose. Everything must be given some meaning. While (ironically) not the most accurate assumption to be made about laws, this way of thinking applies to George’s writing remarkably well. If it’s in there, George meant for it to be in there. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we know how to interpret it correctly, but if anything sticks out to us while reading, EVER, we should probably mark it down.

Reading Tyrion’s comment to Jon that he has “more of the North” in him than in his brothers  was one such moment for me. Now, this could be associated more with the display of traits than parentage: wild and quiet wolf genes, book/season 1’s hair color mystery and George’s continued use of Mendelian genetics (Arya seems to be more in line with Jon despite somewhat undisputedly being Cat’s daughter.). However, I would like to entertain another theory that this comment is about parentage. If such is the case, then how north are the other brothers, and how North must Jon therefore be?

The other boys have a northern  Stark father and a Tully mother, and display traits from each (though book-Robb comes across as more Tully). Jon in contrast has Stark features down to the grey eyes. He looks so Stark, in fact, that he is often referred to as the spitting image of Ned. The show fails to capture this, but perhaps meant to approximate it this season by man-bunning up both Jon and old time Ned.

So if the other boys are half north, I guess Jon would likely be full north, and if Jon looks so characteristically Stark, AND we believe that Lyanna is the mother, we might have to open the door to talk of incest.

I like the idea of an incest scandal at the heart of the Stark family. One of the reasons we judge the Lannisters in the beginning of the series is because of Jaime and Cersei’s incestuous relationship. As the story unfolds, we come to see that the Lannisters are more complicated than typical conniving villains. Jaime even approaches his relationship with Cersei with a chivalric code of monogamy that he has maintained throughout his life. It would be great if we were to discover that the Starks, whose dark side has been gradually revealed over five books, have done the same things the Lannisters have. It might even explain why Ned was able to figure out the truth about Cersei’s children, and why he was so willing to let them go.

But do we have evidence that any of the Stark boys were interested in their sister? Why yes we do, from the tourney at Harrenhal:

“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”

This already intriguing line is made more so by its similarity to Oberyn Martell’s continued sabotage of his own sister’s marriage offers, perhaps due to some Dornish master plan, and/or perhaps because of his own romantic interest.

But we have more. During the great feast at Winterfell in book 1, we have a moment where Jon essentially says to Benjen “you’re not my dad.” Benjen’s response is something like “would that I was.” (Sorry for not quoting exactly, it’s outside the google books preview and I lost my kindle charger.) In the moment, this line plays like Benjen is saying “I like you a lot, Jon Snow, and would be proud to be your father.” But it could also mean “I know who your mother was and wanted to be with her.”

To me, this was always the strongest explanation for why Benjen joined the Night’s Watch. Yes he was a younger son, but he was one of only two Starks left at a time when the house was facing extinction.

So am I saying that Benjen Stark is Jon Snow’s father? No.

Two pieces of Brandon Stark’s behavior with respect to Lyanna were very strange.

At the tourney at Harrenhal, from the World of Ice and Fire:

“Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her [Lyanna]? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winter fell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor….”

And what did Brandon do when Rhaegar finally took Lyanna? He rode directly to the Red Keep to demand a duel with Rhaegar. He didn’t demand her immediate release. He didn’t go to his father. He demanded a duel.

We know from Lady Dustin’s account of her relationship with Brandon Stark that he was likely already sexually active by the time they got together, and we know from Petyr Baelish’s account of his duel with Brandon that he seemed to have little interest in Catelyn Stark at that time. They were dueling, by the way, for Catelyn’s honor. Dueling is apparently what they do in this world to settle love disputes.

Viewed from this perspective, Lyanna’s story takes on an air of escape from unwanted violation, on par with Euron’s attacks on his younger brothers, and Theon’s escape from Ramsay. Brandon Stark’s angry displays outside the walls of the Red Keep begin to sound like “give me back my Reek.”

Why would Ned still name one of his children ‘Bran’ knowing what Brandon did? Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he believed R+L=J. Maybe the name ‘Brandon’ is simply too hard to get away from in the Stark family, like their version of “Durran Durrandon” or “Aegon.”

This evidence may not present a fatal lock. Perhaps others will find more in this line.

Despite being the thing that got me into ASoIaF fan theorization, R+L=J never felt right to me. Where’s the one freaky purple eye? Where are the dragon dreams? Jon only has wall/Great Empire of the Dawn dreams and dreams about the Crypts of Winterfell, where Starks are buried. There is simply too much of the North in him for him to be a lost scion of a people whose origin lies in the Lands of Long Summer.

Okay, tear it apart.

And if there's some famous post out there all about this, direct me to it, because I would really like to see it.

[Kurus]

carried out*

[Queen of Procrastination]

Hello and welcome

First of all this part of the forum is for discussions of the books only and any mentions of things that happen in the show are forbidden. Some people on the boards don't watch the show and they don't want to be spoiled. The show should only be mentioned in the show parts of the forum.

Regarding genetics and looks: I don't know a lot about genetics, but as you already pointed out Arya also has more of the Stark look and she is Catelyn's daugther. One of the reasons why Daenerys, Viserys most of the historical Targaryens had the "typical Targaryen look" is the fact that most Targaryens come from incestous relations. However, there are also a few examples of Targaryens marrying non-Targs and often these children did not have the typical Targaryen look e.g. Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar and Elia Martell looked like a Martell and not like a Targaryen. Baelor Breakspear who was the son of Daeron II and Mariah Martell didn't have the typical Targ look either. So it's quite natural that Jon takes after Lyanna and does not have the targaryen looks, so no purple eyes for him. 

Why is Ned warning Cersei?: Because he's honourable and he knows that Robbert would kill Cersei and her children and he hates the murder of innocent children. It's not the fault of Cersei's children that they come from an incestous relationship, but Robert would probably still kill them. 

Why is Brandon demanding Rhaegar's head: Well most people get upset when they hear that their family members have been kidnapped or are otherwise in trouble. See Jon's reactions in ADWD to "Arya" being married to Ramsay. Robb declared war against Joffrey when Ned got imprisoned. Jaime attacks Ned after he hears that Catelyn has captured Tyrion, and so on.

Jon's dreams about the crypts: In these dreams the dead starks tell him repeatedly that he doesn't belong to Winterfell. Why? Maybe because they know that he has dragon blood.

Timeline issues: I'm not an expert on the timeline, so if I'm wrong than someone should correct me, but Robert''s Rebellion lasted about a year. Brandon was killed before the rebellion started. Lyanna died (presumably due to the complications of the birth) at the end of the rebellion, so more or less a year after Brandon was killed. A pregnancy lasts 9 months meaning that Brandon couldn't have impregnated Lyanna. 

Regarding surplussage: Well you base your argument mainly on this one line from Tyrion in AGOT. This link shows you all lines hinting R+L=J in all 5 books https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4bzzo2807r2diz/RLJ Quotes (Version 4).pdf?dl=0 .Why are all these lines there if they are not important? 

[Kurus]

On 9/14/2016 at 0:43 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Thanks for the update on the purpose of "General." I hadn't noticed that rule being applied at all, and I don't know how it would allow joint show/book discourse. Also the dropbox document you linked ends with some show stuff. That all being said, I can definitely understand wanting to read it in the books first, particularly considering what the show has become. I just continue to watch the show because I feel like someone will spoil it for me if I don't keep up. Happened to me hard core on Battlestar Galactica.

About the R+L=J stuff, yeah: I'm conversant with much of it. Most of the stuff I've seen seems much more compelling on the "Lyanna is the mom" side than the "Rhaegar is the dad" side, though. He doesn't have any dreams directly linked to Valyrian heritage, and even rejects Tyrion's assertion that he must have dreamed of dragons at some point. I think some people stick with the idea because of how Azor Ahai some of his dreams get, PARTICULARLY his "sword of fire, wall defense" dream. However, pursuant to the WoIaF and LmL, I would classify these more as Great Empire of the Dawn dreams than Valyrian ones. Jon does get a lot of dreams about getting pulled down to the crypts of Winterfell, though: "A Stark Place." Now, him feeling like "no place is set" for him is something to take into account, but that has more to do with rightful lordship than genetics. After all, in R+L=J Jon is still just as much Stark as the other children, and in his discussion with Samwell about the crypts he only juxtaposes his exclusion against Robb and Ned's inclusion, not other family members.

Also, about timelines: I ain't messin' with them. However, I would say that I'd be down with a "two kids" theory, which could place his birth well before the tower of joy. I've always found the big/little Walder baby-size speech a strong hint that some kind of two-baby thing happened.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, Kurus said:

Reading Tyrion’s comment to Jon that he has “more of the North” in him than in his brothers  was one such moment for me. Now, this could be associated more with the display of traits than parentage: wild and quiet wolf genes, book/season 1’s hair color mystery and George’s continued use of Mendelian genetics (Arya seems to be more in line with Jon despite somewhat undisputedly being Cat’s daughter.). However, I would like to entertain another theory that this comment is about parentage. If such is the case, then how north are the other brothers, and how North must Jon therefore be?

OK, I'll play. Let's run with the idea that the line is about Tyrion being, accidentally, more right than he knows.

Well, he was, in fact. Jon Snow obviously has more North in him than his siblings - Aegon and Rhaenys, with their Targaryen-Dornish pedigree.

[Kurus]

You know, that's a pretty cool spin on it. But it did say 'brothers'<-- and in the R+L=J scenario, Jon would only have one.

[Queen of Procrastination]

22 minutes ago, Kurus said:

You know, that's a pretty cool spin on it. But it did say 'brothers'<-- and in the R+L=J scenario, Jon would only have one.

And in your scenario he would have none, because neither Brandon nor Lyanna had any children that we know of. 

[Kurus]

Which is a good point, all around. I still hold that the "brothers" part serves the point of description in a sentence that is on the whole enigmatic.

[Kurus]

And what was up with Brandon being more pissed at the Tourney at Harenhal than Robert (though Robert was hungover)?

Sorry for the staccato nature of the responses. I type them one handed while eating fries and keeping my greasy fry-hand away from the keyboard.

[BoltonsBastard]

I don't mean to be offensive by any means but it's very obvious thru the book that Rhaegar is the father.  The show only confirms it.  The timeline obviously doesn't support your theory bc Lyanna was gone for 1 year before she had Jon. Jon was born 12 months or so after Brandon Stark died...

 

It sort of blows my mind that people even try to refute it. Their number 1 reason for it is they "dont like R + L = J", which is fine,  but that doesn't mean it isn't true.  I haven't seen ONE theory that refutes R + L = J  which matches up with the timeline. Brandon died 3 months before Jon was concieved. He's not the father.  Rhaegar is.  It's all over book 1. It's in your face.  I didn't know there was a rule that all Targaryens must have dragon dreams

[Kurus]

Well, I'm sorry bro, but "it's in your face" isn't any more logical or credible a statement than "I don't like it." And I did make points supported by evidence that you did not choose to respond to. As far as the timeline is concerned, I think I effectively discussed it by casting doubt on the "one baby" scenario. George hints pretty strongly that there was more than one baby involved.

R+L=J has always had to explain away a lot of stuff, from Jon not having a single identifying Valyrian feature to his completely terrible and lasting reaction to getting burned. (I'm not saying Targs are fireproof, but in the final chapters of ADwD Dany has some weird milky flame-healing substance come out of her hands).

Jon being half Targaryen and Half Stark never made sense to me. It fits too neatly into a "HE IS THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED AND HIS IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE" harry potter/chosen one ending. I known GRRM ain't about that, and if Jon and Dany are supposed to be parallel or complementary characters, why make one all fire and one part fire part ice? Why push Jon to the center of the story like that?

[Lord Friendzone]

13 hours ago, Kurus said:

Well, I'm sorry bro, but "it's in your face" isn't any more logical or credible a statement than "I don't like it." And I did make points supported by evidence that you did not choose to respond to. As far as the timeline is concerned, I think I effectively discussed it by casting doubt on the "one baby" scenario. George hints pretty strongly that there was more than one baby involved.

R+L=J has always had to explain away a lot of stuff, from Jon not having a single identifying Valyrian feature to his completely terrible and lasting reaction to getting burned. (I'm not saying Targs are fireproof, but in the final chapters of ADwD Dany has some weird milky flame-healing substance come out of her hands).

Jon being half Targaryen and Half Stark never made sense to me. It fits too neatly into a "HE IS THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED AND HIS IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE" harry potter/chosen one ending. I known GRRM ain't about that, and if Jon and Dany are supposed to be parallel or complementary characters, why make one all fire and one part fire part ice? Why push Jon to the center of the story like that?

Yeah, because Rhaenys had Valyrian features silver hair and all, right? Starks seed is strong.

As for geting burned. Viserys died with molten gold and bunch of other Targaryens died by fire or dragon.

Jon is Lyanna's kid and simple as that. They need to confirm father. So we can move on to prophecy because show explained to you and others. Brandon was dead before Jon was concieved. Ashara is not his mom not even in the story in the show and Aerys ,Robert or others doesn't make sense.

[Cron]

On 10/13/2016 at 5:27 PM, Lady of Whisperers said:

Hello and welcome

First of all this part of the forum is for discussions of the books only and any mentions of things that happen in the show are forbidden. Some people on the boards don't watch the show and they don't want to be spoiled. The show should only be mentioned in the show parts of the forum.

Regarding genetics and looks: I don't know a lot about genetics, but as you already pointed out Arya also has more of the Stark look and she is Catelyn's daugther. One of the reasons why Daenerys, Viserys most of the historical Targaryens had the "typical Targaryen look" is the fact that most Targaryens come from incestous relations. However, there are also a few examples of Targaryens marrying non-Targs and often these children did not have the typical Targaryen look e.g. Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar and Elia Martell looked like a Martell and not like a Targaryen. Baelor Breakspear who was the son of Daeron II and Mariah Martell didn't have the typical Targ look either. So it's quite natural that Jon takes after Lyanna and does not have the targaryen looks, so no purple eyes for him. 

Why is Ned warning Cersei?: Because he's honourable and he knows that Robbert would kill Cersei and her children and he hates the murder of innocent children. It's not the fault of Cersei's children that they come from an incestous relationship, but Robert would probably still kill them. 

Why is Brandon demanding Rhaegar's head: Well most people get upset when they hear that their family members have been kidnapped or are otherwise in trouble. See Jon's reactions in ADWD to "Arya" being married to Ramsay. Robb declared war against Joffrey when Ned got imprisoned. Jaime attacks Ned after he hears that Catelyn has captured Tyrion, and so on.

Jon's dreams about the crypts: In these dreams the dead starks tell him repeatedly that he doesn't belong to Winterfell. Why? Maybe because they know that he has dragon blood.

Timeline issues: I'm not an expert on the timeline, so if I'm wrong than someone should correct me, but Robert''s Rebellion lasted about a year. Brandon was killed before the rebellion started. Lyanna died (presumably due to the complications of the birth) at the end of the rebellion, so more or less a year after Brandon was killed. A pregnancy lasts 9 months meaning that Brandon couldn't have impregnated Lyanna. 

Regarding surplussage: Well you base your argument mainly on this one line from Tyrion in AGOT. This link shows you all lines hinting R+L=J in all 5 books https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4bzzo2807r2diz/RLJ Quotes (Version 4).pdf?dl=0 .Why are all these lines there if they are not important? 

I read all of the foregoing posts in their entirety, and did my best to keep an open mind.

My opinion:  Lady of Whisperers is correct, the timeline issue is dispositive of the matter.

I believe the baby we saw is clearly and indisputably Jon Snow, born to Lyanna Stark after the battle at the Tower of Joy in which Ser Arthur Dayne died, approximately 1 year after Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) died.

Thus, it is inconceivable that Brandon was Jon's father.  (Get it?  "Inconceivable"?  HARR!!!)

P.S.  Hey, @Kurus that was some pretty good brain candy anyway, hope you stick around, you seem like one of us at heart.  Not sure exactly what you mean by the 2 baby theory, but even if there were somehow 2 babies, the baby WE saw was Jon Snow, born about 12 months after Brandon died, there's simply no question in my mind.  Still, if you want a rebuttal, the floor is yours.

[Kurus]

Thanks. Don't worry: there's more brain candy coming.

Anyway, I don't find the show stuff dispositive of the timeline issue because the show's timeline is already at variance with that of the books: moved back a few years so that characters are a little older, etc. I agree that the way the info is presented in the show makes it look like that baby is Jon, but potentially in a different timeline.

The "two baby theory" isn't a theory so much as an opening to hang multiple potential births on a Lyanna/Tower of Joy scenario. I found it striking that GRRM went into a long discussion about children growing at different rates and obscuring true age when explaining the names of Big and Little Walder. He talks about it for a while, and to my mind that hints that somewhere in our book, people born around the same time and place are also not necessarily of the same age or relative birth order that we think. The crop of births around the War of the Usurper is the best candidate for that kind of stuff.

[unitron]

On 10/13/2016 at 4:40 PM, Kurus said:

Two caveats before I begin.

 

Caveat 1: this is not a comprehensive review- I know that people have carried enormous, line-by-line rereads of all the books in service of their specific Jon Snow theories. I remember seeing that the core R+L=J post had reached 187 iterations. This is not that. This is based on only a few lines from the beginning of Game of Thrones, the World of Ice and Fire and a little bit of general book knowledge. It is even quite possible that elsewhere on this site another has already written what I am about to say.

 

Caveat 2: I am not a forum maven- pursuant to what I just wrote, I’m not sure how the various long-running heresy etc. threads work. I am an avid consumer of ASoIaF theorization, but am not fully aware of the armature that has been built around it. As such, I am sorry if this belongs somewhere other than randomly in “General.”

 

--

 

Alright. Now that that’s out of the way…

 

This past season of Game of Thrones seemed to confirm what could be considered the ur-theory of A Song of Ice and Fire, that Jon Snow is not in fact Ned Stark’s bastard, but the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. We even got a nice family tree released from HBO confirming as much.

 

I only know because while I was describing the theory I am about to lay out at a party (a frequent occurrence) someone sought to  refute my and any other non-R+L=J theory by pointing out the existence of an official family tree now dispelling any serious opposition to this most popular theory. I say that it is too bad such trees have been misleading before. After all, this is the account of Jon Snow’s parentage in the season 1 DVD booklet.

 

And what did we see in the show anyway? We barely heard Ned and  Lyanna’s exchange. The staging makes it pretty clear that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, something that I do support (and won’t go into too much detail about), but there is no confirmation here that Rhaegar is indeed the father.

 

When I read ASoIaF now, I engage a rule which I all GRRM-surplussage. Surplussage is a canon of legislative construction used by courts and lawyers that assumes every part of a law, down to the last clause and word, was meant to serve some purpose. Everything must be given some meaning. While (ironically) not the most accurate assumption to be made about laws, this way of thinking applies to George’s writing remarkably well. If it’s in there, George meant for it to be in there. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we know how to interpret it correctly, but if anything sticks out to us while reading, EVER, we should probably mark it down.

 

Reading Tyrion’s comment to Jon that he has “more of the North” in him than in his brothers  was one such moment for me. Now, this could be associated more with the display of traits than parentage: wild and quiet wolf genes, book/season 1’s hair color mystery and George’s continued use of Mendelian genetics (Arya seems to be more in line with Jon despite somewhat undisputedly being Cat’s daughter.). However, I would like to entertain another theory that this comment is about parentage. If such is the case, then how north are the other brothers, and how North must Jon therefore be?

 

The other boys have a northern  Stark father and a Tully mother, and display traits from each (though book-Robb comes across as more Tully). Jon in contrast has Stark features down to the grey eyes. He looks so Stark, in fact, that he is often referred to as the spitting image of Ned. The show fails to capture this, but perhaps meant to approximate it this season by man-bunning up both Jon and old time Ned.

 

So if the other boys are half north, I guess Jon would likely be full north, and if Jon looks so characteristically Stark, AND we believe that Lyanna is the mother, we might have to open the door to talk of incest.

 

I like the idea of an incest scandal at the heart of the Stark family. One of the reasons we judge the Lannisters in the beginning of the series is because of Jaime and Cersei’s incestuous relationship. As the story unfolds, we come to see that the Lannisters are more complicated than typical conniving villains. Jaime even approaches his relationship with Cersei with a chivalric code of monogamy that he has maintained throughout his life. It would be great if we were to discover that the Starks, whose dark side has been gradually revealed over five books, have done the same things the Lannisters have. It might even explain why Ned was able to figure out the truth about Cersei’s children, and why he was so willing to let them go.

 

But do we have evidence that any of the Stark boys were interested in their sister? Why yes we do, from the tourney at Harrenhal:

 

“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”

 

This already intriguing line is made more so by its similarity to Oberyn Martell’s continued sabotage of his own sister’s marriage offers, perhaps due to some Dornish master plan, and/or perhaps because of his own romantic interest.

 

But we have more. During the great feast at Winterfell in book 1, we have a moment where Jon essentially says to Benjen “you’re not my dad.” Benjen’s response is something like “would that I was.” (Sorry for not quoting exactly, it’s outside the google books preview and I lost my kindle charger.) In the moment, this line plays like Benjen is saying “I like you a lot, Jon Snow, and would be proud to be your father.” But it could also mean “I know who your mother was and wanted to be with her.”

 

To me, this was always the strongest explanation for why Benjen joined the Night’s Watch. Yes he was a younger son, but he was one of only two Starks left at a time when the house was facing extinction.

 

So am I saying that Benjen Stark is Jon Snow’s father? No.

 

Two pieces of Brandon Stark’s behavior with respect to Lyanna were very strange.

 

At the tourney at Harrenhal, from the World of Ice and Fire:

 

“Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her [Lyanna]? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winter fell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor….”

 

And what did Brandon do when Rhaegar finally took Lyanna? He rode directly to the Red Keep to demand a duel with Rhaegar. He didn’t demand her immediate release. He didn’t go to his father. He demanded a duel.

 

We know from Lady Dustin’s account of her relationship with Brandon Stark that he was likely already sexually active by the time they got together, and we know from Petyr Baelish’s account of his duel with Brandon that he seemed to have little interest in Catelyn Stark at that time. They were dueling, by the way, for Catelyn’s honor. Dueling is apparently what they do in this world to settle love disputes.

 

Viewed from this perspective, Lyanna’s story takes on an air of escape from unwanted violation, on par with Euron’s attacks on his younger brothers, and Theon’s escape from Ramsay. Brandon Stark’s angry displays outside the walls of the Red Keep begin to sound like “give me back my Reek.”

 

Why would Ned still name one of his children ‘Bran’ knowing what Brandon did? Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he believed R+L=J. Maybe the name ‘Brandon’ is simply too hard to get away from in the Stark family, like their version of “Durran Durrandon” or “Aegon.”

 

This evidence may not present a fatal lock. Perhaps others will find more in this line.

 

Despite being the thing that got me into ASoIaF fan theorization, R+L=J never felt right to me. Where’s the one freaky purple eye? Where are the dragon dreams? Jon only has wall/Great Empire of the Dawn dreams and dreams about the Crypts of Winterfell, where Starks are buried. There is simply too much of the North in him for him to be a lost scion of a people whose origin lies in the Lands of Long Summer.

 

Okay, tear it apart.

And if there's some famous post out there all about this, direct me to it, because I would really like to see it.

 

 

 

By  now you may have noticed that this thread has been moved from the book threads to the show threads.

You should rewrite it based solely on stuff in the books and submit that over in the book section, because, although I don't care for the premise, or consider it likely, it's still an intriguing idea (especially the mirroring of Lannister incest), and deserves discussion over there.

[Kurus]

Yeah. It's complicated because I want to draw on both sources, but I understand and respect the desire for people to insulate themselves. When I'm in a time in my life when I can essentially reread the entire series again, I will do so with more of an eye to some of my own theories and other stuff people have been posting and writing over the past two years. By then we may have Winds of Winter already though, which will naturally and irrefutably prove me right.

[Noel E Mahc]

On 10/13/2016 at 4:40 PM, Kurus said:

I like the idea of an incest scandal at the heart of the Stark family

Me too.

[Marada78]

23 hours ago, Kurus said:

Yeah. It's complicated because I want to draw on both sources, but I understand and respect the desire for people to insulate themselves. When I'm in a time in my life when I can essentially reread the entire series again, I will do so with more of an eye to some of my own theories and other stuff people have been posting and writing over the past two years. By then we may have Winds of Winter already though, which will naturally and irrefutably prove me right.

The point is, there is no room for speculation on the show, it's all already pretty much set and near conclusion. But the books will play it differently especially because they will go much more on detail and I hope they will also explain in detail the involvement of Ashara. Ashara is a piece of the puzzle, whatever theory doesn't find a place for her story will never tell us 100% of the truth.

[RhaenysBee]

On 2016. 10. 14. at 1:03 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

OK, I'll play. Let's run with the idea that the line is about Tyrion being, accidentally, more right than he knows.

Well, he was, in fact. Jon Snow obviously has more North in him than his siblings - Aegon and Rhaenys, with their Targaryen-Dornish pedigree.

Hahaha. Clever, very clever.  

On 2016. 10. 14. at 3:37 PM, Kurus said:

Well, I'm sorry bro, but "it's in your face" isn't any more logical or credible a statement than "I don't like it." And I did make points supported by evidence that you did not choose to respond to. As far as the timeline is concerned, I think I effectively discussed it by casting doubt on the "one baby" scenario. George hints pretty strongly that there was more than one baby involved.

R+L=J has always had to explain away a lot of stuff, from Jon not having a single identifying Valyrian feature to his completely terrible and lasting reaction to getting burned. (I'm not saying Targs are fireproof, but in the final chapters of ADwD Dany has some weird milky flame-healing substance come out of her hands).

Jon being half Targaryen and Half Stark never made sense to me. It fits too neatly into a "HE IS THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED AND HIS IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE" harry potter/chosen one ending. I known GRRM ain't about that, and if Jon and Dany are supposed to be parallel or complementary characters, why make one all fire and one part fire part ice? Why push Jon to the center of the story like that?

Firstly, welcome!  

Secondly, what a linguistically satisfying OP! My vocabulary is very thankful. 

I will try to get past my conviction that we will never a 7th book for the sake of the discussion. 

I am not sure that a double baby situation has been hinted at. The only thing, in my opinion, that's been heavily implied is that something around some baby is not what it seems. This could mean a double baby scenario, but a baby swap seems more likely, as that's what we've seen done. Of course the Gilly baby and Mance baby switch could be the ground on which we are expected to believe or at least consider the possibility that Aegon was indeed switched and rescued from the Red Keep, and could have no reference to the Tower of Joy baby situation. Whichever baby trick happened at the ToJ could of course open up new possibilities for the parentage of either baby. But I think, as cheesy as it is, R+L=J is the only theory that is logical. 

Regarding The Prince That Was Promised prophecy and Jon being the Chosen Boy Who Lived, I have no choice but to voice this opinion: for some reason we really want to believe that GRRM and asoaif are above common storytelling, twists, character archetypes that we come across in basically 95% of stories in the history of literature, and thus try to overthink, doubletwist and decipher every word he writes to discover that the story is uncommon in yet another way, but they aren't.  You say grrm ain't about the chosen hero, but he is. Everything establishes Jon as the classic fictional hero we see in Star Wars and Harry Potter and the lord of the rings. There's a reason we hear statements from grrm about "a bittersweet ending" (I can't believe I'm quoting this), "like in Lord of the Rings" and "a bit of a Star Wars situation". Asoiaf is an epic fantasy story with all the characteristics of epic fantasy stories. Why do we want it not to be an epic fantasy story so badly? Is it really another dirty secret, an unexpected incest scandal in the heart of an honorable noble family that makes good writing and an original story? Really? And we complain about shock value and repetition on the show. 

 

[Larger than Average Finger]

I don't think you can pick apart the dialog in any TV show with the same care as you do the text of a novel. There is a very different level of time and care put into the choice of words and less people have input into it.

An actor on set can take a line in a script and say that he feels his character would say something a different way, the director of a given episode can shoot something in a different way, the product can be edited different ways, all of which make the minutia of the script not meaningless, but not always critical either.  In a novel every word is from the same place, so if its on the page, the writer had (at least in English) hundreds of thousands of words to chose from, and he picked that one. Thats why it takes some of them 6+ years to write 1000 pages :).

With TV and Movies, I always ask why a whole scene was placed in the final cut. If they show you that someone has possession of some special item for no apparent reason, you can be sure it will come back later.