He would have killed me but for Howland Reed.

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

I suppose so, Robert was 3 in line after all(when he bid for the throne rhaella was at most in the first moments of pregnancy, and she miscarried a lot) and that was frightening to aerys because it would be even easier for the lords to change sides and not giving the impression every guy could be king... blood still talked

forgetting the fact i think the IT does not fit in jon´s story and actually feels out-of-the-blue and wrong, i do not dispute the possibilty but please do not come with a marriage paper or a global bran hologram or the word of a cranogman no one sees for years... if he wins it, let it be as a snow, heck even as a stark, but a targ? imo it takes power from dany's story, it injures the balance of protagonism between characters and it takes the tale a little to disney's playground, but that's me...

I wouldn't mind him being a Targaryen King, so long as it's done right. He could take the IT as a Snow and only be told of his parentage after or something.

I agree with you though, that I don't think he will take the IT in the first place. I do think his father is Rhaegar (actually I know this, as it is the one thing we can deduce the show has done 100% right), and I think it's possible he married her. But regardless of whether he is the 'rightful king' or not I don't think he will end up as King on the IT. King in the North before kneeling to Dany/Aegon is more likely, I think.

[essosi watch]

On 7. 11. 2016 at 4:32 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Welcome!

There's a fairly popular theory that Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne =  Meera + Jojen

I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, though more on the unlikely side. It'd be a pretty pleasant twist though.

I have read this theory and I must say it's actually quite convincing, although I have different opinion on some of the arguments used to support the theory, namely why it was important to mention all the dance partners in Meera's story. Nevertheless, the theory itself is not in conflict with my own theories about what actually happened back then. I certainly cannot rule out this option because I have this odd suspition feeling, everytime I read that sentence in Meera's story of Harrenhal tourney, how the little crannogman saw
" a maid with laughing purple eyes". Laughing.  While everyone else: 

Quote

...a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. 

AGoT, Carelyn II

 

Quote

 Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. 

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

See?
Haunting.
Not easy for me to explain but it seems to be a difference in how people remember Ashara. 
Ser Barristan describes her eyes as "haunting" because for him, it's a sad memory, of unfulfilled love, a tale with no happy ending.
Catelyn describes her eyes similarly. She has never met Ashara, IIRC, but she heard tales, and the source of those tales had no happy memories of Ashara Dayne, whether it was Ned or some of his war comrades that accompanied him from Dorne; quite the opposite, their story leaves an impression of distant sadness.

On the other hand, Meera in her tale describes Ashara's eyes as laughing. No bitter memories of Ashara, no sadness associated with her. It would almost seem that for Meera (or a source of the tale) it's a story with happy end. She even says:

Quote
... And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

ASoS, Bran II

So, the story of silver prince crowning the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty was sadder than the story of our little crannogman and the maid with laughing purple eyes. It certainly was. Neither the prince nor the wolf maid live anymore.

But the little crannogman still lives. And tells his children stories sometimes. But these stories are perhaps a little bit different than the stories fed to Ser Barristan and Ned's soldiers and then to maids at Winterfell and to Catelyn Stark. (I tend to think if Howland would  one evening tell his children story how the tall and fair lady with purple eyes threw herself into the sea from the top of the Palestone tower, his children would be like:
"Wait, what???", /confused/, "But Father...! This is not funny! As far as we know, half an hour ago, that fair lady with purple eyes was sitting in her chamber with other women, chatting merrily, making new net for Meera!)
Nevermind my imagining of evenings in The Neck.
We have this difference in descriptions of Ashara. It can mean something but it doesn't have to. But it's worth mentioning that HR witnessed the events at ToJ and Starfall personally, while Barristan, Catelyn and other narrators did not. And while their version of story of Ashara is tragic, the first-hand witness version is not tragic at all. I would rather say that for him this memory is dear and/or important to the point that he repeatedly tells the story to his own children, until they remember all the dancing partners of the maid with laughing eyes.
 

On 7. 11. 2016 at 1:58 PM, Lord Vance II said:

I don't see Howland Reed being able to talk the Kingsguard's Arthur Dayne out of orders from Rhaegar, especially out of a battle he presumably should have won. 

This is one strong counterargument, I must admit.

Unfortunatelly, Ser Arthur might be the Kingsguard sworn to protect the royal family but he was not a robot programmed to obey Rhaegar's orders, and he was not a single child. 

What do you think would have happened if Howland mentioned Ser Arthur's pregnant sister and her safety and safety of her unborn child and suggested with wicked smile that he would be pleased to keep her in his loving care?

[Sensenmenn]

 

On November 7, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Curled Finger said:

Wait.   I thought it was Rhaella who crowned Viserys, the little jerk.  On Dragonstone.  

Rhaella did crown Viserys I was saying aerys named Viserys his heir after Rheagar died not crowned him.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

 

Rhaella did crown Viserys I was saying aerys named Viserys his heir after Rheagar died not crowned him.

Ah, my apologies.   Just trying to keep up.   

Do you know for sure Aerys named Viserys heir?   I thought it was just supposition or rumor?  Baby Aegon was, after all, still living when Rhaegar died.   I'm sorry, it's been a while since I visited the discussion.   

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I like this idea, and I think it's totally possible. Some thoughts:

Ned's fever dream: we have nothing but Ned's fever dream and carefully worded memories to clue us in to what happened that day. And I must say, the entire conversation seems rather unlikely. I don't think it's far fetched to suppose that the conversation never happened, or happened in a different way, or at a different time. Imagine that Ned's party were ambushed by the Kingsguard as they approached the tower, they fought, Howland did whatever he did, and the fight stopped. Now imagine that later on, Ned and the KG are talking, and now read the conversation:

Quote

”I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
     ”We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
     ”Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
     ”When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
     ”Far away,” said Ser Gerold, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
     ”I came down to Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
     ”Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
     ”Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
     ”Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
     ”But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
     ”Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
     ”We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

"Nowy tends" and "now it begins" might require some more speculation, but I think the conversation could easily have taken place at some other time. Or, the conversation is just some invention of Ned's brain, compressing various bits of information into one scene... the point is, it's a fever dream and I think we're not supposed to trust it.

So what did happen? Buggered if I know, but I do like my ambush idea. The Kingsguard attack without knowing that Ned and Howland have good intentions, and before anybody knows what's happened, 5 of the 7 are dead - and then Howland saves the day by dropping his sword, and/or convincing (or forcing) Ned to drop his. The Kingsguard can't honourably kill these unarmed men, and this buys them the time to explain things.

Or perhaps Hightower ordered the fight - I believe he was a recent arrival at the TOJ himself - maybe he ordered Dayne and Whent to fight, and they couldn't honourably disobey, so they did, but Hightower fell in the fighting and then Howland pointed out that Dayne was free to give his own orders at this point.